Review Tribunal review at 3DGPU

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Elder Scrolls III: Tribunal

<A href="http://www.3dgpu.com/">3DGPU</a> has posted a <A href="http://www.3dgpu.com/games/tribunal.php">review</a> of <A href="http://www.morrowind.com">Morrowind: Tribunal</a>. Surprisingly, given the site's domain name, it's not a <A href="http://www.3dgpu.com/games/tribunal.php">review</a> based on the graphics. For example:
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<blockquote>My biggest complaint is that some of the features of this expansion can be found in free plugins/mods that are on the internet today.  For example, the Museum Of Artifacts is similar to a museum plugin a user made for the original Morrowind.  That's one of many similarities.  With that in mind, it would've been nice to have seen Bethesda released this expansion as a big plugin file for free, as a thanks for buying Morrowind, and to provide incentive for those who haven't bought it yet, to buy it.  As it is, I don't feel that it's worth the retail price they're charging for it, for the small amount of fun you get out of it.  If you can find this game in the bargain bin, then you got yourself a good deal, because this expansion has it's fun moments, and some of the new armors and weapons are quite nifty.  The new city is pretty to behold and travel around in, and the new characters flesh out a world that feels quite real.</blockquote>
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Overall, they gave it an <b>8/10</b>.
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Spotted this at <a href="http://www.rpgdot.com">RPGDot</a>.
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[Rayt]

This time around, NPC's greet you properly, based on what you've done in the world. This wasn't the case with Morrowind, where sometimes NPC's would greet you improperly.

That's a good thing. I hope they also changed the dialogue itself (since this quote was taken from the audio part of the review), because one the dreadfull things in Morrowind was that 98 percent of the people in the game had the same dialogue options and answers.

You don't have to have an existing high-level character to enjoy Tribunal, but it is required to have a character between the levels 35-50 to beat the final main quest. I started Tribunal as a level 51 master thief/fighter, and it seems it was a bit easy for me to complete the game. I ended up beating the game at level 55.

Morrowind itself got boringly easy after you hit level 25. They should have put a level limit on it, so you had to think very carefuly what skills you wanted to raise and what stats. Would have made it more interesting I think.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

That's a good thing. I hope they also changed the dialogue itself (since this quote was taken from the audio part of the review), because one the dreadfull things in Morrowind was that 98 percent of the people in the game had the same dialogue options and answers.

I can't say I liked the Browser Dialogue that Morrowind used either. It wasn't so much that a lot of people had the same choices, it was that you had to scroll through the topics to make sure you hadn't missed a new option.

Morrowind itself got boringly easy after you hit level 25. They should have put a level limit on it, so you had to think very carefuly what skills you wanted to raise and what stats. Would have made it more interesting I think.

I don't care much for level caps you can reach in the middle of the game, personally. I'd rather them go the QUALITY route of making something to do at higher levels that challenging, rather than just doing the half assed method of capping the levels at a certain point.

 

[Rayt]

I don't care much for level caps you can reach in the middle of the game, personally. I'd rather them go the QUALITY route of making something to do at higher levels that challenging, rather than just doing the half assed method of capping the levels at a certain point.

You mean like in NWN you encounter higher level monsters and more of them if you have a high level character?

 

[Jed]

You mean like in NWN you encounter higher level monsters and more of them if you have a high level character?

I hope you're being sarcastic. Unless you're talking about graphics, any argument describing NWN as "quality" is highly specious.

And I definitely agree with Prov on this one. And while I think there's much that could be done to combat the repetiveness and relative ease of hackin' and slashin' past level 25 or 30 in Morrowind, there's also much a player can do to combat their own boredom: For one, a player could donate their ph4t l3wt to the local temple and try fighting Ascended Sleepers in Netch Armor with a Silver Dagger.

In the end, for me at least, I think the exploration of the world and lore of Morrowind's highly-fleshed out universe was the best part of the game anyway. I spent most of my time involved in the various political intrigues, rather than looking for more challenging combat. But I realize that's just me, and that other folks look for different things out a game...

Jed

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

You mean like in NWN you encounter higher level monsters and more of them if you have a high level character?

Pretty much, but NWN did a lot of things fairly poorly in this regard. Dragons, for example, were EASY to kill because you had that lovely Stone of Recall and a hell of a lot of overpowered items.

All of BioWare's games tend to give out overly powerful items like they were common, which makes their games easier than they should be towards the end of them. There's a term for this in RPGing, it's called "Monty Haul", and it's not generally a good design.

Also, NWN has a level cap.

 

[Jed]

They should have put a level limit on it, so you had to think very carefuly what skills you wanted to raise and what stats. Would have made it more interesting I think.

And just to make my position clear:

I am against level caps on all fronts.

I'm not sure what games you've played, and what your experience and preferences are, but level caps are bad news, in my opinion. I hit the level cap way too early in Arcanum and finishing it just felt like chore, going through the motions for closure and finality. Nearly killed that game for me, a game I otherwised enjoyed greatly.

When the drive to grow and develop is removed, so is the motivation to continue.

Jed

 

[Rayt]

You mean like in NWN you encounter higher level monsters and more of them if you have a high level character?

Pretty much, but NWN did a lot of things fairly poorly in this regard. Dragons, for example, were EASY to kill because you had that lovely Stone of Recall and a hell of a lot of overpowered items.

All of BioWare's games tend to give out overly powerful items like they were common, which makes their games easier than they should be towards the end of them. There's a term for this in RPGing, it's called "Monty Haul", and it's not generally a good design.

Also, NWN has a level cap.

Yes, the Stone of Recall was one of the major faults of the game.

But the level cap was there for a reason; with 3e D&D rules you get ridiculously powerfull when you archieve level 20. And I think after this you reach epic levels. And since you can kill dragons at level 16, what kind of beasts or encounters would be challenging enough to be killed when you go past level 20? A whole flock of dragons and demi-liches?

But maybe that's more a flaw or limitation of D&D rules itself than the game.

 

[Rayt]

I hope you're being sarcastic. Unless you're talking about graphics, any argument describing NWN as "quality" is highly specious.

The scripting for encounters was done quite well, IMO. It really made a difference wheter you had level 14 character, level 16 character or a level 18 character in term of what type of monsters you fought and how many of them.

And I definitely agree with Prov on this one. And while I think there's much that could be done to combat the repetiveness and relative ease of hackin' and slashin' past level 25 or 30 in Morrowind, there's also much a player can do to combat their own boredom: For one, a player could donate their ph4t l3wt to the local temple and try fighting Ascended Sleepers in Netch Armor with a Silver Dagger.

In the end, for me at least, I think the exploration of the world and lore of Morrowind's highly-fleshed out universe was the best part of the game anyway. I spent most of my time involved in the various political intrigues, rather than looking for more challenging combat. But I realize that's just me, and that other folks look for different things out a game...

Jed

I agree with you on the lasts paragraph.

I didn't like the combat in Morrowind at all. The reason for me to keep on playing the game was it's immersiveness, the huge amount of quests and dealing with all the stuff going on between and in between the houses, guilds and cities.

It was an exploration rpg, not a combat rpg. A bit like Planescape Torment, but then with a huge world to discover.
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[Rayt]

They should have put a level limit on it, so you had to think very carefuly what skills you wanted to raise and what stats. Would have made it more interesting I think.

And just to make my position clear:

I am against level caps on all fronts.

I'm not sure what games you've played, and what your experience and preferences are, but level caps are bad news, in my opinion. I hit the level cap way too early in Arcanum and finishing it just felt like chore, going through the motions for closure and finality. Nearly killed that game for me, a game I otherwised enjoyed greatly.

When the drive to grow and develop is removed, so is the motivation to continue.

Jed

Alright, I can see your point. But for that to work, the developing/growing itself should be more graduate and be more for personal (for the PC I mean) growth and outlining of your character than just a way for becoming an über character. Like in Planescape Torment. Which didn't really have a level cap.

 

[Jed]

Alright, I can see your point. But for that to work, the developing/growing itself should be more graduate and be more for personal (for the PC I mean) growth and outlining of your character than just a way for becoming an über character. Like in Planescape Torment. Which didn't really have a level cap.

I agree with all your points here; perhaps there is not so much a disagreement as much as just semantics.

J

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yes, the Stone of Recall was one of the major faults of the game.

Well, it beats walking on the maps, but there are several better ways of eliminating the tedium of manually walking from Point A to Point B across several of their maps. World map travel works nicely and isn't nearly as exploitive as their Stone of Recall.

But the level cap was there for a reason; with 3e D&D rules you get ridiculously powerfull when you archieve level 20. And I think after this you reach epic levels. And since you can kill dragons at level 16, what kind of beasts or encounters would be challenging enough to be killed when you go past level 20? A whole flock of dragons and demi-liches?

I agree about 3E being a little too munchkinish, and BioWare loves to cater to the munchkinism crowd too.

However, that doesn't mean they can't scale back the experience given to make sure you never get to that uber-level-20, either.

Even with uber-level-20s, you can still throw things at a player that can harm them, like another uber-level-20 NPC, though.

 

[Jed]

Again, I think many of the faults of NWN derives from the idea of "if it works in PnP, it'll work for CRPG." Depending on the DM, 3E doesn't have to be an express elevator to level 20. Those who've played PnP know that you're fairly lucky to get through one, maybe two combat sessions in a three or four hour play session. The problem with CRPGs is that they need a lot of filler, in most cases waves and waves of sword/ammunition fodder, or inane amounts of travel from point A to point B back to A now go to C then B again, etc.

I think the willingness to "step outside" of the hack'n'slash box isn't there yet. Maybe it will come in the near future, but probably more likely through an indie or non-US developer than any of the big boys.

Jed