Company News Troika games sales figures

[NeutralMilkHotel]

But honestly, I think the ulitmate conclusion to the sales figures is that the further and further Troika got away from their niche, the worse things got in terms of sales.

It's really fucking nice to see some kind of evidence to back up the idea that proper RPGs like Arcanum actually do sell better than action-y hybrids.

Give bloodlines four more years before you compare it's sales to Arcanum's. Unless the sales number in this thread was for not too many months after arcanum was released.

 

[taks]

That being said, Diablo has still sold over one million units. I'm sure when Dugeon Siege II is released it will sell a couple hundred thousand copies in the first few weeks.

uh, probably more like 10 million... heck, BG1 & 2 are each over 2 million now...

The fact it was Ripped a couple days before release probably didn't help things either.

i don't think it matters in the end. maybe a few percent, but nothing major. most studies i've seen indicate that those ripping games wouldn't buy anyway.

taks

 

[dojoteef]

That's... astounding. It's really fucking nice to see some kind of evidence to back up the idea that proper RPGs like Arcanum actually do sell better than action-y hybrids.

I don't really know if the Troika games are a good example for you to try and make that connection with. I can't imagine Bloodlines or ToEE catered very well to those who enjoy the action packed RPGs. Quite simply the games didn't really hit any specific market.

ToEE was a TB action RPG. As far as I know the market is more for RT or RTwP action RPG. So they missed out on their targeted demographic. Next with Bloodlines, I can't even begin to explain the abomination of first person RPG that turned into FPS style twitch action near the end.

 

[DemonKing]

Arcanum is a Hall of Fame - type game that will be remembered and recommended just like we recommend Darklands today. Bloodlines will be forgotten soon.

I don't know about that - I enjoyed Bloodlines and even TOEE more than Arcanum. I certainly wouldn't recommend Arcanum to anyone except a fairly hard core CRPGer, and only then if they can put up with horrible graphics, atrocious combat and a flawed dialog system.

Incidentally for a point of reference, the Bio web-site claims that the BG series has sold over 4 *million* copies to date. Kind of puts Troika in perspective.

http://www.bioware.com/games/baldurs_gate/awards/

 

[obediah]

I found Arcanum to be leagues beyond ToEE. I bought Arcanum on release and thorougly enjoyed it despite the bugs. I bought ToEE on release, played a few buggy hours and then sat on it a year waiting for patches. I finally went back through it, and while an excellent combat simulator, it just wasn't fun for me, and it was still buggy. Bug-free with a good story and it would be in my top 5, as is I doubt it's in my top 50. I didn't even buy Bloodlines, because the material isn't particularly interesting to me, and I had a hunch it would be buggy.

For me, ToEE was what killed Troika. It's easy to blame Atari for rushing an unfinished game, but as I understand it - the mismanagement was Troika's, they missed deadlines, wanted more time and Atari thought their best bet was to dump the game as is. I would assume this means they felt Troika was in over their heads and wouldn't be able to fix the game in a reasonable amount of time. It pains me, but I imagine they were right.

 

[Dhruin]

Not sure that this proves a whole lot, other than the dismal sales Troika achieved for whatever reason you might want to embrace.

US sales for Arcanum at around the 6 month mark released by Desslock at GameSpot were 69k. I suspect that 234k figure is a whole lot of bargain buys over the years adding up -- assuming any of these figures are vaguely accurate.

 

[Halenthal]

Those sales figures don't surprise me at all. I buy a lot of games, and play a lot more games that may or may not be purchased depending on how long they stay on my hard drive, and I look through my purchased games: Yep, there's Arcanum. Nope, no ToEE, nope, no Bloodlines. Only Arcanum, and it's actually the second copy of the game that I've purchased after my first copy disappeared to a friend.

Could it be that the general population of gamers are actually beginning to not believe the big reviews and are instead researching their possible purchases? I know that's why I don't have ToEE, even though I do enjoy D&D, and it's a big part of the reason I don't have Bloodlines-I'm not that much into the vamp thing but if I had heard a lot of players saying it was great I would have at least tried it. Instead, I read lots of posts and articles about the general and specific problems with both ToEE and Bloodlines, and didn't even bother downloading them to try out, much less buying them. Arcanum, on the other hand, while it does have its problems, there's still many people that say the game is well worth playing even with its problems.

I think I'm a bit more of a power gamer than the average citizen, and read scores of reviews and articles before considering buying a game, but those sales numbers suggest that even casual shoppers are doing some research before purchasing a title.

True, Arcanum has been out for many years now, while ToEE and Bloodlines are still relatively new. But the newcomers have a long ways to go to catch up to Arcanum, and with the news of Troika shutting down equalling no patches for ToEE or Bloodlines, I don't expect them to catch up for quite some time yet.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I suspect that 234k figure is a whole lot of bargain buys over the years adding up -- assuming any of these figures are vaguely accurate.

8.8 mil / 234k = $37.6 avg price. Assuming that the numbers are accurate, of course.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I certainly wouldn't recommend Arcanum to anyone except a fairly hard core CRPGer...

Well, when I said "hall of fame" I certainly didn't mean mainstream casual players.

...and a flawed dialog system.

How was it flawed?

Incidentally for a point of reference, the Bio web-site claims that the BG series has sold over 4 *million* copies to date. Kind of puts Troika in perspective.

Incidentally, the BG games are very mainstream, so that doesn't surprise me.

 

[EEVIAC]

True, TOEE was in the top 5 for 2 weeks, I seem to remember - and I can't remember Arcanum even scratching the Top 10.

Arcanum debuted at 4. Look at the other games it was competing with.

 

[Kuato]

Incidentally for a point of reference, the Bio web-site claims that the BG series has sold over 4 *million* copies to date. Kind of puts Troika in perspective.

I agree Baldurs gate seems like it was a much larger operation that spanned nearly three years working with 2d tech while TOEE was only 18 months with full 3d art

look at the team sizes Baldur's Gate dwarfs TOEE

I will have to give the TOEE art staff some credit

5 artists and one animator on TOEE
100 monsters in TOEE off the box*
thats one busy animator


23 artists and 10 animators on Baldurs Gate
60 monsters in Baldur's gate off the box*

but the lesson is learned about the importance of design, I figure Atari's rational was why do we even need designers if Gary Already wrote the module

TOEE's design department = 1 Designer between the major shared responsibilites of these two
Lead Designer/Project Lead -Tim Cain
Producer/Designer -Tom Decker

Baldur's Gate design department, just a bit larger

Lead Designer- James Ohlen
Core Game Design- Jamesa Ohlen,Scott Greig, Ray Muzyka
Addtional design- Lukas Krisjanson, Rob Bartel, Matt Horvath, Ross Gardner

Lead Writer- Lukas Krisjanson

Additional Writers- James Ohlen, Rob Bartel,Matt "the tube"Horvath

Editing - Ray Muzuka

the question is would have a three years and 4 times as many people made a difference on TOEE

Atari obviously didnt think so, somebody at Atari put the BIG cheap sticker on this project

I really hope they don't go super cheap on NWN and BG3

 

[Sol Invictus]

Diablo is Diablo. It's Blizzard's territory and nobody else's, Greatatlantic. It sold well because Blizzard made it and because there were no other Diablos on the market at the time. Were Bioware or Bethesda to make a Diablo, their sales would likely be meager in comparison.

Troika found a niche with Arcanum, much like Blizzard found theirs with Diablo. Unlike Blizzard, Troika didn't stick with it, and tried to mainstream via the way of Bloodlines.

You will recall that even though Dungeon Siege sold well it only did so for the first 2 months and the expansion thereafter sold even more poorly than Bloodlines.

A hyped FPS will usually get inflated reviews on it's initial release and sell loads but probably not consistently.

Indeed, hyped FPS games do usually get inflated reviews upon release, but the problem with the market is that it is completely SATURATED with first person shooters, and games like Half Life 2 and Doom 3 will be the only FPS games that sell well. The others, like Painkiller's expansion and Bloodlines might land really good reviews, but most gamers on limited budgets (e.g. teenagers) are going to pick the best of the lot and not bother with the rest.

But honestly, I think the ulitmate conclusion to the sales figures is that the further and further Troika got away from their niche, the worse things got in terms of sales.

It's really fucking nice to see some kind of evidence to back up the idea that proper RPGs like Arcanum actually do sell better than action-y hybrids.

Give bloodlines four more years before you compare it's sales to Arcanum's. Unless the sales number in this thread was for not too many months after arcanum was released.

Arcanum is a niche product and a very well received one at that. It gets the same reception from niche gamers give to games like Fallout, Deus Ex, System Shock 2 and Baldur's Gate. Those games sell well over a period of time and even though their initial sales might not be much to brag about in comparison to hits like Half Life (Exception: BG, which sold well for its time), they're solid titles.

Bloodlines on the other hand is an FPS with performance issues that is unlikely to ever be fixed. It wasn't received by the community in the way that the other aforementioned titles were so there's no reason why it'll sell well over the in the same way that Arcanum has. When people talk about games they should be playing, but never played, names like Arcanum, Disciples 2, Jagged Alliance 2 and Deus Ex (underreceived during its release, except by magazines) pop up, but never will you hear "Bloodlines" cited as one of the few golden nuggets nobody knew about.

 

[triCritical]

Arcanum - 234k - $8.8 mil
ToEE - 128k - $5.2 mil
Bloodlines - 72k - $3.4 mil

I'm no mathematician but Arcanum & TOEE have been out a lot longer than Bloodlines, which may account for the lower sales figures. Remember that BL is still a full price product, as far as I know, wheras the other two have been in the bargain bins for a while.

I heard once that most sales for the average game occur within like the first three months.

 

[Greatatlantic]

Ooooh, thats some good fact digging. Here's another one I just picked up. The most recent "lets Gamespot" was a 50 minute commercial for Jade Empire, with a little Socom III. Anyways, they talked with the "lead writer" (I can't believe he fessed up to that title) and claimed Bioware staff of five or six writers. Troika had exactly zero dedicated writers on staff. Yet, Bloodlines is ten times better written the NWN OC or the Old Republic.

 

[triCritical]

That being said, Diablo has still sold over one million units. I'm sure when Dugeon Siege II is released it will sell a couple hundred thousand copies in the first few weeks.

uh, probably more like 10 million... heck, BG1 & 2 are each over 2 million now...

A lot of this is probably due to redistribution, expansion combination packages and MAC versions. Sort of ironic, how only an initially high selling game has the potential for longevity in sales.

 

[bryce777]

If it shows anything, it's that people get fed up with bugs very quickly. You screw up once and you are on the way out, let alone multiple times.

The ordeal with toee is the biggest reason I decided to wait on bloodlines, that and the fact it licenses a high end engine and I would rather not have to worry about upgrading for at least a few more years.

That is pretty sad about the bloodlines game...it got decent press at least so can't complain there, but honestly I don't think marketing matters as much for rpgs.

 

[Kuato]

That is pretty sad about the bloodlines game...it got decent press at least so can't complain there, but honestly I don't think marketing matters as much for rpgs.

Is KOTOR II getting much PR?

 

[Sol Invictus]

Ooooh, thats some good fact digging. Here's another one I just picked up. The most recent "lets Gamespot" was a 50 minute commercial for Jade Empire, with a little Socom III. Anyways, they talked with the "lead writer" (I can't believe he fessed up to that title) and claimed Bioware staff of five or six writers. Troika had exactly zero dedicated writers on staff. Yet, Bloodlines is ten times better written the NWN OC or the Old Republic.

Why are you trolling? Bioware employs many writers to work on different titles. Most of them aren't writing the same game and some of them do more than just write - they also script and design areas as well. It's stupid to think that Bioware had 6 writers all toiling away at Neverwinter Nights. What does Jade Empire's story have to do with NWN OC, anyhow?

I wouldn't call Bloodlines' story better than Knights of the Old Republic, either. For starters it didn't even have 1/10th of the cinematic direction in KOTOR. Remember the torture scene, or the 2-minute training collage when you arrive at Dantooine? That should count for something, shouldn't it? Bloodlines didn't have anything like that, and the intro was absolutely atrocious.

 

[Greatatlantic]

Diablo is Diablo. It's Blizzard's territory and nobody else's, Greatatlantic. It sold well because Blizzard made it and because there were no other Diablos on the market at the time. Were Bioware or Bethesda to make a Diablo, their sales would likely be meager in comparison.

Tell that to other publishers. Ever since Diablo hit such high sales everyone takes it as gospel that action focused rpgs sell better than turnbased ones. As for Troika finding a niche with Arcanum, I'm sure they tried to sell other games along similar lines to publishers, but none of them bit. So they took what projects they could, and did the best they could with them. While playing Bloodlines I really got a Fallout vibe from all the dark humor scattered through out.

As for your comments about Dungeon Siege, undoubtedly true. However, which game got an expansion pack and is getting a sequel? Publishers notice what sells, try to copycat, and throw things like vision and creativity to the wayside. I for one think you are understating how well Bloodlines was recieved. I (who have played a lot of RPGs) thought it was the best RPG since Planescape: Torment, and one that got pretty darn good reviews. A lot of reviewers took off points for the bugs, but it still averaged in the eights. I also think the attacks on it for being buggy were grossly exagerrated. The only real show stopper that I got was not geting paid for the food critic quest, and that was fixed in the patch.

 

[Volourn]

The problem that I think Exitium is getting at with Troika is.

Troika tried to be a big league develoepr when they arne't. They tried to be Bioware.

BIG NEWS UPDATE: ONLY BIOWARE CAN BE BIOWARE.

Afterall, like Ex stated, surely BIO could have just done Diablo copycats; but likely the rip off would have been called out and they'd have bombed.

However, BIo went their own root for RPGs - RPGs focused on stories and characters with solid role-playing but not at the level of FO and a RT w/pause combat that is sooooo good that people arne't even sure what to call it; but most people love it.

In conclusion, this means only ONE thing: Troika screwed Troika. It is, once again, that the proof pointing it to being SOLELY Troika's fault for their demise is completely UNDENIABLE by any sane person unless they are unabashed Troika fanboys (though I kinda think that automatically makes them insane).

R00fles!


"I (who have played a lot of RPGs) thought it was the best RPG since Planescape: Torment, and one that got pretty darn good reviews."

That's because you are stupid. Next.

 

[Fez]

There can be only one, Highlander!

Does this mean that Bioware get The Quickening?

 

[Greatatlantic]

The problem that <b><i>I think</i></b> Exitium is getting at with Troika is.

That was probably your first misconception about your reality.

Troika tried to be a big league develoepr when they arne't. They tried to be Bioware.

However, BIo went their own root for RPGs - RPGs focused on stories and characters with solid role-playing but not at the level of FO and a RT w/pause combat that is sooooo good that people arne't even sure what to call it; but most people love it.

In conclusion, this means only ONE thing: Troika screwed Troika.

R00fles!

Somehow, I get the feeling that Bioware's formula, which is anything but story and character focused, leads to the conclusion that Troika screwed Troika. I know I trimmed your quotes, but I went right to meat of your argument, which would shame a hotdog.

"I (who have played a lot of RPGs) thought it was the best RPG since Planescape: Torment, and one that got pretty darn good reviews."

That's because you are stupid. Next.

I am stupid? Who knew? Yeah, the missus brings it up every once in a while, but I think she's a little biased. On the other hand, that diagnoses coming from somebody (Volourn) who plays a dungeon crawler with an unispired excuse to combat and calls it story focused. And who says Troika's problems were they were ambitious and not Bioware. Of course, its all right for Bioware to make big name titles since they're Bioware, but no one else can, since they're not Bioware. With logic like that... weren't you discussing fanbois?

In my defene, I am not a fan of Troika, persay. I loved Fallout, and liked Arcanum, and Bloodlines simply amazed me. If praising a game you enjoyed and defending your enjoyment of that game is so wrong, then whats the point of being right? Except if that game is Final Fantasy X-2, then you got problems.

 

[Volourn]

"There can be only one, Highlander!

Does this mean that Bioware get The Quickening?"

LOL


"Of course, its all right for Bioware to make big name titles since they're Bioware, but no one else can"

Never said that. The point is Troika tried to be something they weren't - a large developing company. Guess what? BIO wans't always a big hot shot. They were a small wananbe developer too. And, guess what? They didn't pretend to be worthy of making expensive games. Troika did.


"With logic like that... weren't you discussing fanbois?"

Your next paragraph will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that youa r enothing but a fnaboy. As for my fanboy status, anyone who has seen me disucss BIO and their games at length would know I'm anything about. Check out my reviews for SOU, HOTU, and KOTOR as evidence. Lots of criticism in each of those; but hey keep spinning. Next, you'll claim that i think NWN is perfect. It's also hialrious that as a so called BIo fanboy I haven't even played every BIo game nor do i intend to.


"In my defene, I am not a fan of Troika, persay."

As you are.


"I loved Fallout"

Game over. The fact you think your love for Fallout has anything to do with Troika other than some Troika employees having worked on it shows your fanboyism. TROIKA DID NOT CREATE FALLOUT! Period.

P.S. FO is in my top 5. FO2 is tied for my fave game. Nothing to do with Troika.


"I liked Arcanum"

And? I liked Arcanum too. And?


'Bloodlines simply amazed me."

BL is okay. It coulda been great; but there were some MAJOR problems with it that you seem to willfully ignore and I'm not even talking about bugs. How 'bout the fatc that the combat is more actiony than anything BIo has even thought of doing in their RPGs. Heck, even Jade Empire which is a kung fun action RPG allows the player to pause and select their next moves. R00fles!


"If praising a game you enjoyed and defending your enjoyment of that game is so wrong, then whats the point of being right?"

Enjoying a agme is all fine and dandy. Ignoring its faults is another. I enjoy both KOTOR games; but I sure as heck did not or will not ignore theif aults. Same with BL.


"Except if that games Final Fantasy X-2, then you got problems."

Meh. It's ok. I've played better. I've played worse.


That is all. For now.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Troika found a winning formula with Arcanum, as evidenced by the sales figures. It was on best sellers lists the moment it showed up on the market, unlike Vampire: Bloodlines, which didn't make it on any best sellers lists for the first few weeks and even when they did, they only stayed on for a week and no longer.

Troika found a winning formula and all they had to do was perfect it, but instead they decided to mainstream, branch out, and in doing so lost their niche: hardcore RPGs. They tried to take the 'good graphics' route with TOEE and it didn't pan out for them because they didn't carry along the winning formula that bagged them the sales figures for Arcanum. They didn't cater to what the fans wanted: a solid RPG experience. They gave the fans what the fans never asked for: a turn based dungeon crawler. While TB dungeon crawlers aren't bad per se, there's no doubt that most of Atari's own customers were jaded by the company's release of POR2, and Troika failed to capture the market that had bought Arcanum. In short, they alienated their ardent fans with TOEE and made things worse with Bloodlines.

While this may not apply to Greatatlantic, it certainly applies to the 162,000 people who bought Arcanum but not Bloodlines. Another thing is that most RPG gamers don't even have computers capable of running Bloodlines so Troika more or less made the game unavailable to a much larger market. How many RPG enthusiasts do you know who own top of the line computers to play games like Doom 3, Half Life 2 and yes, Bloodlines? I'd wager not very many. Basically, they tried to target the Half Life 2 and Doom 3 high-end PC owning crowd with Bloodlines and their plan fell flat on their faces. These CS:S addicts aren't likely to be the kind of gamers who enjoy RPGs, much less RPGs with a bad combat system.

Heck, in Bioware and Obsidian's defense, even old mid-range computers can play the games they make, including KOTOR. There's a gigantic user base out there with mid-range computers which are completely incapable of running Bloodlines, and as I said before, the people who buy HL2 and Doom 3 don't have any interest whatsoever in Bloodlines because it is a 3rd rate action game, and not a top action game. This user base of mid-range computers should have been the target market for Troika. There's no doubt in my mind that Bloodlines would have sold much better if the system requirements weren't as high as it was. It even surpassed Half Life 2 in system requirements. HL2 runs perfectly fine (albeit with the details turned down) on Athlon 2400's with Geforce FX 5200. These computers are nigh incapable of running Bloodlines because of its memory requirements.

 

[Greatatlantic]

Hmmm... inability to create well thought out arguments, baseless insults, answering arguments not put forth... Oh my goodness! Anne Coulter is posting here!

As for your status as a Bioware fanboy, I'll take your word in the last post that you weren't. On the other hand,

"Troika tried to be a big league develoepr when they arne't. They tried to be Bioware"

"Guess what? BIO wans't always a big hot shot. They were a small wananbe developer too."

Now, do us all a favor and go read Kuato post about the staff sizes of Baldur's Gate (bio's first project if I'm not mistaken) versus Temple of Elemental Evil. Plus the development times were different, in Bio's favor. Arcanum was built with an even smaller staff.

What Bioware had was a hit, and they've been able to coast ever since. Most of their projects, if not all, are self financed. This allows them to take however long is needed to get it right and ready. Its sort of sad though, Bioware's titles are made successful because of funding, not because of innovation or actual quality. I mean, they have a full staff or writers and they stuff is still as campy as Old Navy commercials.