Company News Troika PA engine

[Elwro]

I'm not sure if ToEE's engine is any good. I got horrible slowdowns in the Temple and what should I attribute them to, if not the engine?

 

[Volourn]

Your computer, of course.

 

[DarkSign]

Yeah. Downloading Polish porn can do that to your computer.

 

[Elwro]

Nah. Polish porn is for foreigners. We Poles dig Hawaiian stuff And Volourn, you're either being ironic, which I appreciate, or as usual playing a dumbass. I played games looking a lot better then ToEE that ran smoothly, and in ToEE sometimes even cursor movement was jerky and I had to wait for the radial menus to appear. That's poor coding, that's all.
They did something terribly wrong with cursor handling with ToEE because I checked recently with my new graphics card and cursor movement in the main menu was sluggish, while it's perfect in Bloodlines.

 

[M0rphz0rz]

I'm not sure if ToEE's engine is any good. I got horrible slowdowns in the Temple and what should I attribute them to, if not the engine?

Those slowdowns (especially those in the Nodes) are a pain in the neck. They're probably due to pathfinding routines using up a lot of processing power, combined with particle or other graphical effects. Steve Moret wanted to work on that, but he never got around to it. A pity, really, since that's the bug number one on most people's priority list.

Yeah, ToEE's engine has a whole number of issues. The one redeeming feature is its combat system. A brilliant translation of D&D rules, the best one since SSI's Gold Box games.

 

[Volourn]

"And Volourn, you're either being ironic, which I appreciate, or as usual playing a dumbass."

Take your pick. I'll manage to survive, and move on either way.

 

[Nomad]

I'm unimpressed by this video.

The animations were poor, the framerate appeared sluggish and that's with only two characters on the screen and no effects.

The shadows were nice but nothing we haven't seen before and in games several years old.

The only thing that was reasonably cool, was the day/night transition. However, a real-time day/night cycle doesn't make up for the obvious deficiencies.

All that being said, it was a demo of an unfinished engine. I believe that had Troika been given the opportunity to produce a game with this engine things would have gotten better, however we'll never know.


N.

 

[bryce777]

That doesn't come without a price. Did you atcually finish ToEE with their changes? While it improves some things, it makes other utterly ridiculous. The entire spellcaster roster of ToEE would have to be redone depending on which ones they are. This is a guess but I think what they did was apply a general spellcaster AI to everyone who can cast spells, while this works in some situations, it ruins other ones like I mentioned.

The first co8 patch nuked the AI of the characters, but in all the other ones the AI works properly or at least as it was designed.

I didn't want to respond to volourn's comment since he is so tiresome, but the general difficulty in toee is not really too low. Yeah, if you have a min maxed party with lots of crafting then it is pretty easy, but the game can be played through with a group of characters that isn't combat heavy and still make it, and some of the combats are pretty difficult if you dont go in knowing what to expect, and the nodes have quite a few combats that are pretty difficult.

 

[Volourn]

"didn't want to respond to volourn's comment since he is so tiresome, but the general difficulty in toee is not really too low. Yeah, if you have a min maxed party with lots of crafting then it is pretty easy, but the game can be played through with a group of characters that isn't combat heavy and still make it, and some of the combats are pretty difficult if you dont go in knowing what to expect, and the nodes have quite a few combats that are pretty difficult."

The game is easy unless youa re retarded. if youa re retarded; you shouldn't be playing role-playing games. Next.

 

[Avin]

Interplay wanted them to make a CRPG out of Deadlands using SPECIAL

... i didn't knew it... i'd kill for this game...

 

[Stark]

I'm unimpressed by this video.

The animations were poor, the framerate appeared sluggish and that's with only two characters on the screen and no effects.

The shadows were nice but nothing we haven't seen before and in games several years old.

The only thing that was reasonably cool, was the day/night transition. However, a real-time day/night cycle doesn't make up for the obvious deficiencies.

All that being said, it was a demo of an unfinished engine. I believe that had Troika been given the opportunity to produce a game with this engine things would have gotten better, however we'll never know.
N.

that's pretty much what I think too. I fail to see the fuss why people here are claiming it's good. It looks half decent (for a rpg) at best, and would be considered dated 2 years down the road (that's how long it takes assuming they managed to get a publisher). The animation is sorely lacking (there's only running, and well, running). As a presentation video I do not think it's impressive at all.

 

[Stark]

I'm not sure if ToEE's engine is any good. I got horrible slowdowns in the Temple and what should I attribute them to, if not the engine?

Those slowdowns (especially those in the Nodes) are a pain in the neck. They're probably due to pathfinding routines using up a lot of processing power, combined with particle or other graphical effects. Steve Moret wanted to work on that, but he never got around to it. A pity, really, since that's the bug number one on most people's priority list.

Yeah, ToEE's engine has a whole number of issues. The one redeeming feature is its combat system. A brilliant translation of D&D rules, the best one since SSI's Gold Box games.

There're far more creatures in some of the rooms in the temple level yet there's no slowdown, so it can't be all due to pathfinding routines. I notice bad slowdowns in the fire temple (the one with alot of fire braziers) so the graphic effect for fire is definately a major culprit.

 

[Seven]

Ahh, the fanboi resorts to childish insults. pwnd.

I guess we're not talking about the retard who posted bullshit and tried to pass it off as empirical evidence/fact. And whose fanboi am I? Apparently from your post-menstrating whinning whinnings I'm a fanboi of the now non-existent BIS, Troika, reflexisive and others. Care to back this up with fact, or are you just spouting bullshit again because you've just had your ass schooled?

Congratulations, it took you quite long to figure that out. But then again you could just have stopped reading imaginary posts instead. I can see why you have no friends.

Oh so you claim that you're post is against those who give devs free rides? Sure did pick some stupid examples since all the devs that you mentioned have been greatly critiqued at this site. Once again you're just bullshiting. BTW, there's a difference between not being a prtenscious ass after you've found a dev house is closing and giving said dev house a "free ride." To close, fuck off and take your unfounded misconceptions elsewhere.

BTW this:

Quote:

What the hell is this, another no more free rides post?

Congratulations, it took you quite long to figure that out. But then again you could just have stopped reading imaginary posts instead. I can see why you have no friends.

In response to this:

What the hell is this, another no more free rides post? Well in case you haven't noticed people have been plenty critical of BIS, Trioka, Obsidian, Reflexsive and other devs. What we don't due is blame people indiscriminantly through straw man arguments. Heros hugh? Why don't you browse some old threads and look at some of the flak that the so called heros have taken over the past months. Once again you're making bullshit assumptions, but I'm sure you have "empirical evidence " to back it up.

Only proves that you can take on sentence out of context, while ignoring the valid points, which is you're full of shit and are uncapable of defending your bullshit asumptions and arguments. No where do you (nor will you) address the fact that no dev in reccent times has gotten a free ride at the codex because you cannot find any "evidence" to back up this claim.

 

[bryce777]

I'm not sure if ToEE's engine is any good. I got horrible slowdowns in the Temple and what should I attribute them to, if not the engine?

Those slowdowns (especially those in the Nodes) are a pain in the neck. They're probably due to pathfinding routines using up a lot of processing power, combined with particle or other graphical effects. Steve Moret wanted to work on that, but he never got around to it. A pity, really, since that's the bug number one on most people's priority list.

Yeah, ToEE's engine has a whole number of issues. The one redeeming feature is its combat system. A brilliant translation of D&D rules, the best one since SSI's Gold Box games.

There're far more creatures in some of the rooms in the temple level yet there's no slowdown, so it can't be all due to pathfinding routines. I notice bad slowdowns in the fire temple (the one with alot of fire braziers) so the graphic effect for fire is definately a major culprit.

Well, I have my therories about it and I don't think it has anything to do with pathfinding, but I guess it is moot at this point unless they release the source code.

 

[Jinxed]

Sorry, but what are you talking about? Let me rephrase this, do you even know what you're talking about? Maybe you should look up the relevant thread on the Co8 board before jumping to conclusions. It's possible to assign different AI patterns to each spellcaster depending on the situation, and that's exactly what the modder in question is planning on doing. While the whole thing is still a work in progress, the changes do sound very promising. The modder's aim is to make the combats more challenging, but not downright impossible. I don't see what's so "ridiculous" about this, but maybe you can enlighten me?

Currently, enemy spellcasters often cast useless spells on their allies (like, enlarge person on a ranged fighter) and even sometimes cast beneficial spells on YOUR PARTY. That is about to be fixed as well. Wanna complain about this too?

Dude, I played ToEE with the newest Co8. I talked about how it WAS, not what is planned, dumbass. read what you wrote - "THEY ALREADY IMPROVED IT".

Well, they did and they fucked it up as well. Not only the spellcaster AI, but some other npcs ready for attack or spell and just stand there doing nothing. The node guardians got butchered as well. All in all, the only battle that is made more challenging than unmodded is the broken tower fight.

If it's possible to assing different AI to each critter, that's cool, but it certainly doesn't seem like they did it yet and that's exactly what I was saying.

As I played ToEE fairly recently with that patch, and probably around 20 times total I can describe most of the behaviour which I found ridiculous. But if I felt like doing that, I would have already at the Co8 forum.

 

[bryce777]

I'm unimpressed by this video.

The animations were poor, the framerate appeared sluggish and that's with only two characters on the screen and no effects.

The shadows were nice but nothing we haven't seen before and in games several years old.

The only thing that was reasonably cool, was the day/night transition. However, a real-time day/night cycle doesn't make up for the obvious deficiencies.

All that being said, it was a demo of an unfinished engine. I believe that had Troika been given the opportunity to produce a game with this engine things would have gotten better, however we'll never know.


N.

I dunno, looks damn good to me.

It might not be bleeding edge like doom 3, but it would blow away any rpg I have seen that has actually been released.

Also, by the time it was released hardware would be much better, and likely performance could have been somewhat improved (which seemed fine to me anyhow).

 

[Shagnak]

I dunno, looks damn good to me.
.

I agree.

Its a pretty good graphics engine, as evidenced in it retaining the high LOD when it changes to FP mode.

It has pixel shaders used to good effect, and the curved surfaces such as the pipes and tyres retain their shape perfectly whatever the angle.

If it looks "half decent (for an rpg) at best", then I want to know - what are these uber-grafixed rpgs that I don't know about?

 

[Stark]

If it looks "half decent (for an rpg) at best", then I want to know - what are these uber-grafixed rpgs that I don't know about?

Witcher, which is suppose to come out this year, looks much better. Like i said, in the ideal world where they managed to get a publisher, the game would only come out in another 2 years down the road. Oblivion and Dragon Age would have been out by then too.

If you want to compare it to an existing rpg, I would say Morrowind (with some of the visual improvement mods) looks better. I do not have Bloodlines (yet) but from gameplay video it looks better too.

The mech, in particular, disturbed me. It reminds me of a slightly improved stone golem in NWN only clothed in metalic armor. Not that I have a good idea what it takes to make a mech look/behave like a mech. Sorry I have to be vague here.

 

[Shagnak]

So no RPG in its released state then, save Bloodlines (perhaps). And The Witcher looks great, I admit, but mainly from addition of nice lighting/reflection effects etc - I dont think it can do "perfect" curves (bezier?) like the engine in the footage can.

I would like to think that given a couple of years then some minor issues would have been ironed out and the demonstrated engine would be up to scratch for that period. As for the the mech's animation (or the "only running")- what has that necessarily got to do with the abilities of the engine? As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, they obviously hadn't bothered to fully model/script all of animation.

I think the textures and pixel shader work is rather impressive and extensive - just look at the close-ups of surfaces when it moves to FP mode - morrowind didnt have that level of bump mapping (if any). The main improvement for me in Morrowind when I moved to a card that supported pixel shading was that the water looked prettier.
And the textures in Bloodlines/HL were quite low res in some places (with no mip mapping). I thought that something was wrong with my new spanky video card until I saw them running on other peoples machines. Yes, those games look great depite this (Im deliberately being a picky cunt).

I admit some of the above is arguable (i.e. my opinion) but implying that it is "half decent (for an rpg) at best" is being ignorant given the state of graphics in rpgs today. In general, the standard ain't that great, and this engine demonstrates a lot of what should be aimed for to make an engine that does the biz.

Alas, they'll never get the chance to polish it into something worthy.

Edit: maybe we're talking about different things here. I'm going on about the capabilities of the demonstrated engine, and maybe you are talking more about how well they implemented things in the demonstration using the engine? e.g. the engine can do the biz, but maybe they could have made a better looking mech model (and animations) to demonstrate it with. If u no wot i meen? :wink:
Err, or not. I may be confused. Need more coffee.

 

[bryce777]

What he said.

Also, witcher does not look that great to me.

It is not much better than gothic.

Also, as far as I know witcher has only released STILLS, and the stills in witcher don't look nearly as good as those for the unfinished troika game.

Part of that is subjective, but I feel that troika has/had some fantastic artists and that that really showed in all their games except arcanum.

 

[bryce777]

Obivion does look amazing, but the game itself will probably be total crap.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I wouldn't be so quick to judge the game 'crap', bryce.

 

[bryce777]

I wouldn't be so quick to judge the game 'crap', bryce.

I have bought every game they have made to date, and they are not going to steal any more of my money. After daggerfall they have done nothing new, and in some ways made things worse.

 

[Stark]

Edit: maybe we're talking about different things here. I'm going on about the capabilities of the demonstrated engine, and maybe you are talking more about how well they implemented things in the demonstration using the engine? e.g. the engine can do the biz, but maybe they could have made a better looking mech model (and animations) to demonstrate it with. If u no wot i meen? :wink:
Err, or not. I may be confused. Need more coffee.

Yeah, I did comment (in the last sentence) that as a demo video it failed to impress me. :wink:

which is why I'm picking bones with the lack of animation and the unappealing look and feel of the mech. As a graphics engine, it's probably good. In the hands of capable artists it may become superb, but all speculation is naught since we know it's as good as dead.

I have bought every game they have made to date, and they are not going to steal any more of my money. After daggerfall they have done nothing new, and in some ways made things worse.

Some of the stuff they've been saying over interviews are rather promising. I personally look forward to it.

 

[MarFish]

What the hell is this, another no more free rides post? Well in case you haven't noticed people have been plenty critical of BIS, Trioka, Obsidian, Reflexsive and other devs. What we don't due is blame people indiscriminantly through straw man arguments. Heros hugh? Why don't you browse some old threads and look at some of the flak that the so called heros have taken over the past months. Once again you're making bullshit assumptions, but I'm sure you have "empirical evidence " to back it up.

Only proves that you can take on sentence out of context, while ignoring the valid points, which is you're full of shit and are uncapable of defending your bullshit asumptions and arguments. No where do you (nor will you) address the fact that no dev in reccent times has gotten a free ride at the codex because you cannot find any "evidence" to back up this claim.

That is such a good description of your own behavior, I will leave it to that. You have yet to show any evidence that my previously presented facts are wrong.