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Turn Based/Real Time Bastard Hybrids

Sol Invictus

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The following is an e-mail composed by yours truly incited by this comic - http://www.unknownplayer.com/comic/ - which is obviously an attack on Saint Proverbius' reply towards J.E. Sawyer. Read it first, then read this.


I have a few comments pertaining to your latest comic - the one about J.E. Sawyer and the Vault Boy who was so obviously Saint Proverbius.

You do not seem to fully grasp the point of view professed Saint Proverbius.

First of all, it's not a matter of whether real time games are 'good' or whether turn based games are 'better?. I enjoy both types of games equally so I do believe that my opinion in this matter holds a certain merit towards a fair assessment of both points of view within this argument.

What matters is, rather, the implementation of a real time system into a role-playing game with an inherently turn-based system such as SPECIAL or D20. Converting an inherently turn-based system into a real-time environment indubitably disrupts the rules and is in other words, the equivalent of throwing sh*t into a fan and expecting a cake to come out in return. Therefore, games produced through this method are subsequently the poor bastard children of a failed marriage between turn-based and real-time. Case in point: Arcanum. Remember the combat?

If we follow your fruit analogy, we could say it is similar to fertilizing your oranges with fertilizer meant for pears in a climate, soil and overall condition meant for the growing of pears and not oranges! Simply put, it doesn?t work out correctly. When you have oranges, which are inherently oranges, but grown as pears and are susequently expected to be eaten as either oranges or pears, it will cause people to vomit because they just don?t know what to expect, as it?s neither truly an orange, nor is it a pear. It?s a pear in essence (i.e. Baldur?s Gate) but because it tastes nothing like one, the farmer insists that it looks and tastes like a pear ? but alas, it isn?t. The people would rather eat real pears than oranges which ?resemble? pears.

Most people (Including you, apparently) simply fail to comprehend that you can't take a turn based game, bastardize it into a real-time game and expect anyone to enjoy it as either a real time game or a turn based game because it is neither ? not both. A real time game is built upon a real time foundation with the intention of being a real time game. The system just works better. That's precisely why CounterStrike would fail as a turn based game, and why Neverwinter Nights failed as a real-time game.

p.s. why doesn?t your email fucking work?
 

Volourn

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NWN failed as a RT game?. Good,s icne it isn't really RT. :roll:
 

Spazmo

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Volourn said:
NWN failed as a RT game?. Good,s icne it isn't really RT. :roll:

Oh, shut the fuck up with that bullshit, Volourn. Just about the only people who agree with you on that one are Bio's marketing department who keep desperately trying not to alienate TB fans.
 

Sol Invictus

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Neverwinter Nights failed as both a real-time game as well as a turn based game. It was a huge failure, overall as it failed to meet the needs of either market.

Good riddance to that.
 

Psilon

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Just because it's not completely dependent on player reactions does not stop it from being RT. WarCraft III doesn't make you click every single time you want an Orc to swing his axe, and lets you queue up units, but it's still completely RT.
 

Volourn

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Spazmo, it's not turn based either. You lose again.

Exitium, sorry it didn't fail period. You (and others) may not have liked it; but it surely was no failure.
 

Visceris

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Volourn said:
NWN failed as a RT game?. Good,s icne it isn't really RT. :roll:

If it looks like real time, plays like real time, and feels like real time, then its real time.
 

Volourn

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Doesn't feel like RT to me. *shrugs* Oh well, it doesn't really matter what style of combat a game is either as it is enjoyable and for myself (which is most important), and for most others, NWN easily succeeds in that.
 

Spazmo

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I believe the correct term is REAL-TIME. It is useless to call it by any other name, because it's still--

Oh, forget it. It's like talking to a wall. Hey, Jed, maybe we should start some sort of a club/support group?
 

Visceris

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Fuck NWN, its a piece of shit game that would have never sold if it didn't have the DnD logo on it. A game that fails to stand on its own fails to be a good game. Strip away the brand names of DnD or Star Wars, strip away the name Bioware, and just focus on what the game contains.

Do that and you would see the simple truth.
NWN is a failed game.
KotOR is a failed game.
 

Volourn

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You haven't played KOTOR so you really can't say if it failed or not for you. Neither can I; but according to most of the people who playe dit.

As for NWN; if it failed for you; you would have never bought SOU AND liked it. :roll:
 

Anonymous

Guest
Volourn said:
Doesn't feel like RT to me. *shrugs* Oh well, it doesn't really matter what style of combat a game is either as it is enjoyable and for myself (which is most important), and for most others, NWN easily succeeds in that.

The problem with this being, NWN was suppost to be a D&D game, a faithful remake of 3rd Edition D&D rules. D&D is TURN BASED. NWN=Suck.
 

Visceris

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Yes, I liked it, but that doesn't mean that it is good. People like a lot of different things, but that doesn't make them good. A lot of people like Britney Spears, but does that make her a good singer. No, because she is CRAP. A lot of people like Jerry Springer as well, but his shows are CRAP.

SoU was decent, but doesn't change a single fucking fact about NWN being the crapfest that it is. I have played enough of KotOR to realize its just another CRAPFEST PIECE OF SHIT GAME that can't stand on its own without the brand name selling it. Lets see Bioware make a game without the DnD/FR logo or the Star Wars logo, and see what they really can do.

I predict that it would be just another crapfested game.
 

Volourn

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No D&D crpg has been faithful in its entirety to D&D pnp rules. Until that time, I won't say a game sucks on that basis until it cna be proven that D&D games can follow D&D rules to eprfection. And, no, though TOEE will probably be the best D&d rules implementation yet; it is not perfect so it "fails" in that sense too.


Visceris: We will hopefully see what BIo can do without a big name symbol on tehir package. I also agree that a big reason why BIo has amde so much money is because of the symbol. thena gain, many D&D games and SW games have bombed too so it can't all because of the logo. Don't expect the new "original" Bio games to sale as well as the other games no matter how good they are unless something majorly surprising happens.

I hope you enjoy TOEE, and HOTU.
 

Visceris

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Ah, Volourn is getting the point at last.

FUCK THEM ALL!

Edit: Maybe I haven't made myself clear on this. I will not be buying ToEE, HotU, or any other shit spewing computer game ever again.
 

Anonymous

Guest
Volourn said:
Visceris: We will hopefully see what BIo can do without a big name symbol on tehir package. I also agree that a big reason why BIo has amde so much money is because of the symbol. thena gain, many D&D games and SW games have bombed too so it can't all because of the logo. Don't expect the new "original" Bio games to sale as well as the other games no matter how good they are unless something majorly surprising happens.
.

See:BioWare's first game. In otherwords, BioWare cant make anything worth playing.

And as for 'No CRPGs following D&D rules', I dont see why they would skip turn-based combat, it's been done in CRPGs before, they obviously went real-time because it's the 'popular' route. Also, NWN left out stuff like Clerical domains, there was no excuse for that. I can understand the Jump skill being left out, but I dont understand why they made up new skills, removed feats, used a combat PnP D&D doesnt use, skips various vital parts of the rules, and still pass it off as 'the ultimate D&D experience'.
 

Visceris

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It is because Bioware is chalk full of talentless fuck ups that can't make a game without a big name to sell it.
 

Anonymous

Guest
I agree. For a D&D computer game to be good to me, it's gotta be very D&D. I play D&D 3rd Edition PnP, and I really enjoy it, it's fun and it's quality, so if someone wants to make a CRPG version of it, why the fuck dont they ACTUALLY MAKE IT D&D? This is why I can't wait for ToEE (and atleast they are fessing up with what is being left out, instead of being shady about it).
 

Volourn

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NWN had clerical domains. And, everything that was left out of NWN in pertient to D&D rules were told us before the game was released. There was no secret conspiracy.

I haven't played BIO's first games so I won't say one way, or the other whether they were good, or bad. I also have no inclination to play them as they aren't my type of games.
 

Jed

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Volourn said:
I believe the correct term is phase based.
Nope. Phase-based is more similar to TB: both parties decide what action they will make, then the actions play out simultaneously. Rock-Paper-Scissors is the simplest example of a phase-based system. NWN is neither true TB nor true RT. It takes the worst of both systems (the waiting of TB and the lack of strategy of RT) and combines them into one completely unsatisfying turd. This is why NWN's combat sucked, and FO and Diablo rule in their own respective domains of combat. Further more, leaving out Jump or Climb or a few other less important features is absolutely goddamn nothing like cramming a TB ruleset into a faux-RT paradigm. To sugest otherwise is to indulge in false analogies. This will disputed, no doubt, by Bio fanbois, as these arguments have been made time and time and time again on this board and others, thus I regret Spazmo, while we may have logic on our side, we are outgunned by those with shameless disregard for logic. But, as I always say, it's better to be right than to win.
 

Volourn

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Yeha, I'm glad to be right.
 

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