Turn Based/Real Time Bastard Hybrids

[Visceris]

Yeha, I'm glad to be right.

 

[Jed]

NWN had clerical domains. And, everything that was left out of NWN in pertient to D&D rules were told us before the game was released. There was no secret conspiracy.

That is straight-up bullshit and you know it. You can type the name of your god into a dialogue during character creation, but it has no fucking effect on the game! You can type in any word or pharse into that dialogue--it doesn't matter! Once again you argue in bad faith.

Yeha, I'm glad to be right.

Whatever, chumpsauce.

 

[Volourn]

You absolutely don't know D&D. We are talking about DOMAINS; not DIETIES. Two completely different things. Once again, you arue about something you know nothing about

 

[Jed]

You absolutely don't know D&D. We are talking about DOMAINS; not DIETIES. Two completely different things. Once again, you arue about something you know nothing about

Okay, explain the difference, and illustrate how it implemented in the game in any way other than superficial. I may be wrong, that I'm willing to admit; set me straight, oh Great Sage.

 

[Visceris]

Volourn, one's choice of Deity determines what domains are available to the cleric. The two are related, and also Bioware doesn't fully implement Domain spells for they are missing in the game.

 

[Volourn]

X:Quite frankly, you don't even know the difference between domains, and dieties; you should be ashamed even thinking that you know what you are talking about. Do some research, and come back.

Dieties = gods (duh!!)

Domains = spheres of influence (ex. earth, good, death, etc.) that are given to priests as a sample of what they follow (usually tod o gods)

Domain choices are usually tied, and limited by one's diety BUT this is one aspect that NWN DID leave out, unfortunately.

Visceirs: I know all that; but Xjedex wasn't arguing that. He was mixing domains, and dieties up. As propven by his statement about typing up one's domain in a dialogue form box.

'tis a shame.

 

[Jed]

I never play clerics, so I had to do my homework: According to the PHB, the DIETY you choose determines the DOMAINs you may recieve. I was able to go into NWN just now, create a LAWFUL GOOD cleric and choose EVIL as one of my domains! More arbitrary Bioware treatment of a ruleset that has non-arbitrary reasons for being constructed the way it was.

Bioware's ludicrously illogical butchering of a venerable RPG ruleset is the true shame, Volourn.

 

[Volourn]

Thanks for changing the subject. I already am full aware of how BIo chnaged the connection between domains,a dn dieties. It's one of the (many) things I dislike about the game. However, that doesn't change the fact tthat domains and dieties are two different things that you somehow confused.

3E D&d is venerable? It's like 2-3 years old. WOW! Venervale has surely changed it's emaning since I was young.

Anyways, like stated before, until a game has a PERFECT translation of D&D rules onto computer; I won't be judging a game on that basis other than knocking a "few points off' its rating.

 

[Jed]

Thanks for changing the subject. I already am full aware of how BIo chnaged the connection between domains,a dn dieties. It's one of the (many) things I dislike about the game. However, that doesn't change the fact tthat domains and dieties are two different things that you somehow confused.

You patsy, I just proved that domains are not, contrary to your previous assertion, IMPLEMENTED CORRECTLY in the game. If I can make a lawful good cleric with EVIL and DEATH as his domains, something is not right!

Ah, fer fuck's sake, I'm getting all CCR up in this shit.

PS- Again, "imperfect" and "butchered" are not equivalent, nor even similar.

 

[Visceris]

BWAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAAA!

Gawds, I needed a good laugh.

 

[Volourn]

Chagning the subject again? Huh? I never said they wer eeprfectly implented. I said you had gotten domains and dieties mixed up and that's a fact.

"Volourn:NWN had clerical domains. And, everything that was left out of NWN in pertient to D&D rules were told us before the game was released. There was no secret conspiracy.

X: That is straight-up bullshit and you know it. You can type the name of your god into a dialogue during character creation, but it has no fucking effect on the game! You can type in any word or pharse into that dialogue--it doesn't matter! Once again you argue in bad faith. "


What does that have to do with my declaration that domains are in the game?

 

[Jed]

I may have briefly mixed up dieties and domanins, but according to the ruleset, the two are mutally inclusive. It's a broken implementation, at best. Never even mind the logic of atheist clerics receiving domains...

Sorry, I forgot, you don't mind if something is a superficial afterthought: as long as it's "in" the game, it's "implemented."

 

[Visceris]

Because Dieties determines what domains you have access to.

 

[Volourn]

Visceirs: That isn't an issue here. Bah. The argument was silly, anyways.

X: No, it's because the way they implemented the domains DIDN'T hurt my enjoyment of the game. I am long time dnd player; but unlike others; I'm not so anal when it comes to it being implemented into a crpg. No dnd crpg has implemented the rules perfectly. TOEE will not be the first either has even Troika has pointed out. To bash BIO for changing/removinga rule; when Troika does the same thing is plainly silly.

Ask Visceris, I have my share of complaints of NWN. I've even posted a full list a couple of times before. NWN isn't a perect game. I never said it was. Oh well, rant way.

 

[Jed]

To bash BIO for changing/removinga rule; when Troika does the same thing is plainly silly.

I don't care that you like NWN; I'm happy for you. I don't even care that you're a Bioware fanboi. What I have a hard time with is the fact that you keep repeating the same flawed arguments over and over and over. Troika's ToEE will be an "imperfect implementation" of DnD. Of course; no one is claiming otherwise. NWN has butchered DnD to force it into a paradigm for which it was never intended. I will not say this again: "changing" is not the same thing as "butchering." Give it up.

 

[Volourn]

NWN didn't butcher nothing. You give it up.

 

[Psilon]

Nyet. And NWN is not, nor has it ever been, phase based. Wizardry 8 is phase based.

 

[Visceris]

This is how I gauge from change to butcher when it comes to DnD rules.

If you can play the game in PnP effectively but its not a 100% conversion, then its a change.
If the game is changed so much that it cannot be played in PnP format, then its a butcher.

 

[Volourn]

Visceirs, I thought you said that you liked NWN's rules implementation; and it was just the story incosnistency, and how "easy' the combat was that made you hate it? You also liked SOU so it's obviously not the gameplay you dislike as you've stated that you thought NWN's gameplay was great.

In order to make NWN playable in pnp; all that would be needed was full turn based combat which is easily done by the DM simply saying; it's turnbased since the combat engine actually works basically like that behind the scene; but much quicker than allowing the player unlimited time to make decisions.

 

[Visceris]

Hey, I like Sirloin Steak and it gets butchered.

 

[Volourn]

 

[Jed]

NWN didn't butcher nothing. You give it up.

Okay, maybe not "butcher." How about eviscerate? Or maybe just exsanguinate?

How much of AD&D's personality will be reflected in the game?
We are extremely loyal to the D&D rules and we are very dedicated to keeping the rules as close to the pen and paper game as possible. We want the 3rd Edition Players Handbook to be a perfectly valid reference for NWN and we want NWN to be great reference material for the 3rd Edition rules.

Domains (broken): "You can only select an alignment domain (such as Good) for your cleric if his alignment matches that domain." --From the PHB
Dieties (absent): Not that they would have any effect on the game anyway; hack and slash has no use for sissy stuff like dieties.
Combat (FUBAR): I think this has been discussed into the ground.
Mounts (dismissively not implemented): Sorry, Pally, your character just got a whole lot less interesting.
Parry (filler): A useless skill to make fighters appear to not have been eviscerated skill-wise. Fighter's class skills: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Jump, Ride, and Swim. How many of these skills are in NWN? That's right, kids: none!
Resting (ridiculously unbalanced): Wait, I can make a few hits on a dragon, run through a secret door, rest for only 15 seconds[/], wash, rinse, and repeat? There goes your CR out the window!
AoO (overdone):Discussed elsehwhere on the forums, also, see combat.
Ranged (worthless): See combat again. Good bye Legolas! You just got overrun!
Subdual damage (MIA): Sorry.
CR (fudged): Parties of four need not apply.
ECLs and subraces (nada): Too much work. The fans will fix it.
Monks (cheated): I wanna become a goddamn outsider at lvl 20! I don't play a monk to end up just a regular human!

And many more, to be sure, but I'm not as knowledgeable about 3e as some sagely folks on this board.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

Ex: Just as a point of clarity that comic and its pears-oranges analogy was drawn word for word from a post JE made on the IPLY boards.

sigh: are we back to this again? Volourn can't you defend what was good about NWN (whatever you think that was) w/o defending the whole damn thing? I know you are willing to admit to it's flaws, but why can't you see that the combat implementation was one of them? I mean it was pretty and all, but that is about it. It is not phase based (see Wizardry) nor remotely tactical (see JA2) nor really very fun after a while. I played the entire OC, kinda enjoyed it etc. But the game is nothing like PnP in any ways other than the most superficial (feats, d20, spells).
That said, c'mon everybody ya gotta give credit to Volourn for hanging in there on these boards with his defense of Bio et al...takes a brass set to do that.

 

[Spazmo]

No, I should think a; think skull is rather; more useful for thi;s kind of thing.

Pointless semicolons added for Volourn's benefit

 

[Jed]

And just for the schadenfreude of it:

Patch 1.31 Blues
There are some strange things going on with the 1.31 patch that are significant enough that I think a warning to those that haven't installed it yet is warranted. The first problem is where the auto-update stops at some point in the installation for no apparent cause. This problem can be fixed by downloading the critical rebuild (75MB). The second problem is much more serious, in that the SecuROM copy protection bug seems to have reared it's ugly head again and causing the game to ask for the SoU CD even though the CD is in the drive. I've verified that it does seem to be a SecuROM problem as uninstalling the game and reinstalling short of the patch causes no problems. If you have any solutions that are legal, please post them in this support thread or here in the comments. You can also check out the support section for emails and websites to try and get help.

Gotta love that special brand of Bioware programming!