Tyranny + Bastard's Wound Expansion Thread

[veevoir]

Rebel path - dude steals magic helmet, bring back to get guys into alliance
Solo anarchist path - you need to get helmet, but before you can multiple simultaneous multidicked scripts turn on closing all doors making you kill 15 dudes until you get cutscene where dude steals helmet

Ok cut 4 major paths in the game to 3.

Well, if we keep simplifying things because C&C doesn't feel big enough - there is only one path, you only kill different folks and have different interactions with other people, also dialogues sometimes change.

If we keep simplifying further - it is as linear as Diablo, BGII, perhaps AoD.. where do we draw the line for satisfactory C&C?
What is the nature of C&C?

Because once you dismiss most C&C as insignificant everything becomes linear with slight color variation.

What is a RPG?

 

[Bubbles]

Here's the top rated Steam review:

That's roughly how I expect the official Codex review to read.

 

[Shadenuat]

What is a RPG?

True, but here it's just too obvious, dialogue with 3 nodes leading to same outcome etc.

That's roughly how I expect the official Codex review to read.

Except it's not really a good roleplaying experience. You neither are rewarded or punished for playing your role well. You can harvest as many nice points, or tell the most powerful archon Tunon to fuck off [glares silently] or attack level 99 NPC mashing dialogue option 100 times, blatantly state that you disobeyed orders and betrayed Empire, but there won't be any consequences. You will be forgiven and continue your awesum story.

If player would act like he could in this game in AoD, I'd expect 60% of conversations to end with YOU DIED screen.

 

[Lacrymas]

You can have C&C in every possible gaming genre just because of its interactive nature. What an RPG does is tie those choices to your stats, i.e. you only have the choices which the character you made has the capability of choosing. You can't have your scrawny, nerdy wizard win an arm-wrestling competition (without using magic or some kind of other trickery, which can both be tied to stats).

 

[Azarkon]

Actually, it's a lack of content. PoE companions don't have huge lore dumps at all (except ironically Avellone's, even with the forced staggering). They don't have a lot to do or say in the game, period. I don't know what "pages and pages of characters talking about themselves" you're talking about.

Pallegina was a giant information dump for the Vailian Republics, and Eder for Dyrwood and the war. I specifically remember being bored out of my mind talking to them about history, yet I felt it necessary because otherwise I might miss a character quest. My personal opinion on the matter is simple: companions should not be walking encyclopedias. They can introduce you to their culture, comment on it, etc., but you should not be able to ask them about every aspect of their society & their personal history. At minimum, not right away.

To use an analogy from life: not many people in the world want to be cultural ambassadors, and fewer still are qualified. Interactions between people of different cultures in Obsidian's games feel more like diplomatic exchanges than casual party talk, and is a definite example of why show, don't tell is even a rule.

 

[Fry]

What I don't get is why doesn't Obsidian finally make its first turn based game (Stick of Truth doesn't count).

Sawyer says he'll be working on a historical game after PoE2. If he gets free rein, it's a fair assumption that game will be TB.

 

[Lacrymas]

They can be walking encyclopedias but not in an information dumpy kind of way. They can sketch their culture by the way they talk, act and present themselves. I wouldn't do that to a companion though, but the NPCs in specific regions, companions have other responsibilities in the narrative.

 

[Bubbles]

What I don't get is why doesn't Obsidian finally make its first turn based game (Stick of Truth doesn't count).

Sawyer says he'll be working on a historical game after PoE2. If he gets free rein, it's a fair assumption that game will be TB.

About 45 minutes of my Sawyer interview were about his historical game.

 

[Sentinel]

What I don't get is why doesn't Obsidian finally make its first turn based game (Stick of Truth doesn't count).

Sawyer says he'll be working on a historical game after PoE2. If he gets free rein, it's a fair assumption that game will be TB.

About 45 minutes of my Sawyer interview were about his historical game.

And when will that be coming out? Been waiting for 2 months or something jesus christ.

 

[Fry]

What I don't get is why doesn't Obsidian finally make its first turn based game (Stick of Truth doesn't count).

Sawyer says he'll be working on a historical game after PoE2. If he gets free rein, it's a fair assumption that game will be TB.

About 45 minutes of my Sawyer interview were about his historical game.

Nice to know. Think we'll be able to read that before the sun burns itself out?

 

[hell bovine]

Okay, another bad design gripe: why oh why aren't all spell schools available from the start? why do I have to butter up certain npcs to learn the basic stuff?

I'm guessing it's another of those "it would be unbalanced" things, except less variety at character creation doesn't make combat more challenging OR interesting.

 

[Bubbles]

And when will that be coming out? Been waiting for 2 months or something jesus christ.

If we want to be fair, we should publish it about 8-9 months after the Underrail review.

 

[Azarkon]

I often found it pretty telling that, considering how much Codex hates on loredumps, WOT's and gimmicky and edgy characters, St. MCA is actually the worst offender in PoE when it comes to this. Go figure.

Remember what I said about pacing? Information dumps are almost always bad, and could probably have been done better even in Planescape: Torment, but they are worse when there's virtually no development afterward. Avellone's characters space out their dumps, and that makes them better than other characters that dump everything in your face the moment you meet them.

When you first meet Durance, you don't know what the fuck this old dude is on about, and that doesn't change until way later in your interactions with him. Same with Avellone's other character. By contrast, what is there to know about Eder, Pallegina, or Sagani beyond what they tell you straight away?

 

[Sentinel]

I often found it pretty telling that, considering how much Codex hates on loredumps, WOT's and gimmicky and edgy characters, St. MCA is actually the worst offender in PoE when it comes to this. Go figure.

Remember what I said about pacing? Information dumps are almost always bad, and could probably have been done better even in Planescape: Torment, but they are worse when there's virtually no development afterward. Avellone's characters space out their dumps, and that makes them better than other characters that dump everything in your face the moment you meet them.

When you first meet Durance, you don't know what the fuck this old dude is on about, and that doesn't change until way later in your interactions with him. Same with Avellone's other character. By contrast, what is there to know about Eder, Pallegina, or Sagani beyond what they tell you straight away?

They don't tell you anything straight away other than what they're doing standing there, you're just delusional pal. Take the Avellone cock out of your mouth and actually bother paying attention to what you read next time.

 

[Azarkon]

I often found it pretty telling that, considering how much Codex hates on loredumps, WOT's and gimmicky and edgy characters, St. MCA is actually the worst offender in PoE when it comes to this. Go figure.

Remember what I said about pacing? Information dumps are almost always bad, and could probably have been done better even in Planescape: Torment, but they are worse when there's virtually no development afterward. Avellone's characters space out their dumps, and that makes them better than other characters that dump everything in your face the moment you meet them.

When you first meet Durance, you don't know what the fuck this old dude is on about, and that doesn't change until way later in your interactions with him. Same with Avellone's other character. By contrast, what is there to know about Eder, Pallegina, or Sagani beyond what they tell you straight away?

They don't tell you anything straight away other than what they're doing standing there, you're just delusional pal. Take the Avellone cock out of your mouth and actually bother paying attention to what you read next time.

Pretty sure they do, as their personal quests are set off in the very same act that you meet most of them, and that quest determines their entire character narrative. Take Sagani as an example. You learn right away who she's searching for, why she's searching for him, that she has family back home, and that she probably misses them. That practically defines her entire character.

 

[Sentinel]

I often found it pretty telling that, considering how much Codex hates on loredumps, WOT's and gimmicky and edgy characters, St. MCA is actually the worst offender in PoE when it comes to this. Go figure.

Remember what I said about pacing? Information dumps are almost always bad, and could probably have been done better even in Planescape: Torment, but they are worse when there's virtually no development afterward. Avellone's characters space out their dumps, and that makes them better than other characters that dump everything in your face the moment you meet them.

When you first meet Durance, you don't know what the fuck this old dude is on about, and that doesn't change until way later in your interactions with him. Same with Avellone's other character. By contrast, what is there to know about Eder, Pallegina, or Sagani beyond what they tell you straight away?

They don't tell you anything straight away other than what they're doing standing there, you're just delusional pal. Take the Avellone cock out of your mouth and actually bother paying attention to what you read next time.

Pretty sure they do, as their personal quests are set off in the very same act that you meet most of them, and that quest determines their entire character narrative. Take Sagani as an example. You learn right away who she's searching for, why she's searching for him, that she has family back home, and that she probably misses them. That practically defines her entire character.

Nope. There are sections throughout the game where she comes up to you and opens up a little more. She's initially suspicious of you and only accepts travelling because you tell her you're a watcher, which she doubts very much for the first Act of the game. If you want to know more about the importance of Persoq you're gonna have to keep her in her party and wait for her to trust you.

 

[Azarkon]

I often found it pretty telling that, considering how much Codex hates on loredumps, WOT's and gimmicky and edgy characters, St. MCA is actually the worst offender in PoE when it comes to this. Go figure.

Remember what I said about pacing? Information dumps are almost always bad, and could probably have been done better even in Planescape: Torment, but they are worse when there's virtually no development afterward. Avellone's characters space out their dumps, and that makes them better than other characters that dump everything in your face the moment you meet them.

When you first meet Durance, you don't know what the fuck this old dude is on about, and that doesn't change until way later in your interactions with him. Same with Avellone's other character. By contrast, what is there to know about Eder, Pallegina, or Sagani beyond what they tell you straight away?

They don't tell you anything straight away other than what they're doing standing there, you're just delusional pal. Take the Avellone cock out of your mouth and actually bother paying attention to what you read next time.

Pretty sure they do, as their personal quests are set off in the very same act that you meet most of them, and that quest determines their entire character narrative. Take Sagani as an example. You learn right away who she's searching for, why she's searching for him, that she has family back home, and that she probably misses them. That practically defines her entire character.

Nope. There are sections throughout the game where she comes up to you and opens up a little more. She's initially suspicious of you and only accepts travelling because you tell her you're a watcher, which she doubts very much for the first Act of the game. If you want to know more about the importance of Persoq you're gonna have to keep her in her party and wait for her to trust you.

How long do you think I kept Sagani in the party? The answer is until I reached Defiance Bay and picked up Pallegina. Yet I already knew her entire motivation & back story, just from the initial talks. Sure, you don't find out what Persoq becomes until later, and you can't complete Sagani's quest until Act 3. But what does that have to do with Sagani? It's like saying that because you don't know what happened to Eder's brother, you don't know Eder. Most of the characters receive such minimal development going through Pillars of Eternity that how you feel about them going in is almost certain to be how you feel about them coming out. Lack of content is one problem, but presentation of content is another - if you hide nothing coming in, and you already have so little, then don't be surprised when players complain about coming up empty.

 

[Fairfax]

Now I get what some people meant by being forced into decisions.

Spoiler

After the Burning Library quest, I have to report to Ashe, which is fine, but then I have to tell him I kept the Silent Archive. The problem is that nobody saw me take it. I killed the Scarlet Chorus party and nobody saw it happen.
How does anyone know I took it? Who told him? And why am I forced to tell him that?
The game lets you lie and say that Tunon gave you permission, but if they want this to make any sense, it'll only get the PC in trouble later on.

Also, as soon as you talk to Ashe after Sentinel Stand and the Burning Library, you hand over both areas to him, and the game doesn't warn you or give you the option to do something about it. You can betray the alliance at specific poitns during these quests, but there's no middle ground and you can't do shit if you miss these specific opportunities.
Tunon explicitly tells you to become as powerful and influential as possible, there should be at least the option to try and claim it for Tunon/yourself as his proxy without declaring war on everyone.

 

[Sentinel]

I often found it pretty telling that, considering how much Codex hates on loredumps, WOT's and gimmicky and edgy characters, St. MCA is actually the worst offender in PoE when it comes to this. Go figure.

Remember what I said about pacing? Information dumps are almost always bad, and could probably have been done better even in Planescape: Torment, but they are worse when there's virtually no development afterward. Avellone's characters space out their dumps, and that makes them better than other characters that dump everything in your face the moment you meet them.

When you first meet Durance, you don't know what the fuck this old dude is on about, and that doesn't change until way later in your interactions with him. Same with Avellone's other character. By contrast, what is there to know about Eder, Pallegina, or Sagani beyond what they tell you straight away?

They don't tell you anything straight away other than what they're doing standing there, you're just delusional pal. Take the Avellone cock out of your mouth and actually bother paying attention to what you read next time.

Pretty sure they do, as their personal quests are set off in the very same act that you meet most of them, and that quest determines their entire character narrative. Take Sagani as an example. You learn right away who she's searching for, why she's searching for him, that she has family back home, and that she probably misses them. That practically defines her entire character.

Nope. There are sections throughout the game where she comes up to you and opens up a little more. She's initially suspicious of you and only accepts travelling because you tell her you're a watcher, which she doubts very much for the first Act of the game. If you want to know more about the importance of Persoq you're gonna have to keep her in her party and wait for her to trust you.

How long do you think I kept Sagani in the party? The answer is until I reached Defiance Bay and picked up Pallegina. Yet I already knew her entire motivation & back story, just from the initial talks. Sure, you don't find out what Persoq becomes until later, and you can't complete Sagani's quest until Act 3. But what does that have to do with Sagani? It's like saying that because you don't know what happened to Eder's brother, you don't know Eder. Most of the characters receive such minimal development going through Pillars of Eternity that how you feel about them going in is almost certain to be how you feel about them coming out. Lack of content is one problem, but presentation of content is another - if you hide nothing coming in, and you already have so little, then don't be surprised when players complain about coming up empty.

Really, you felt the same way about Edér when you started the game and when you were done with it? What about Aloth? Did you feel the same way about him too?
Durance also tells you that Magran is a bitch and he's mad at her right as you meet him.

 

[jungl]

Don't understand why people complaining the game requires macro or the combat is hard. Even on hard the game is piss easy compared to pillars of eternity. I had the beast woman just crit someone for 238 damage. They give you so many powerful tools at your disposal. Obsidian fucked up the harder difficulties in pillars with their resting system.

 

[Kaivokz]

Stats on my main character, with buffs:

Spoiler

Parry and dodge degrade by up to 100 points upon getting hit, but with 237 parry and 104% graze to miss/hit to graze, the average guy I'm fighting now has to roll something like 96+ to even graze me. I've only just completed the first section of the game, so he's not even in great gear, just some random leather armor I bought from a merchant (for fights with lots of archer I switch to my dodge shield and the numbers are about reverse, ~230 dodge). So far PotD has turned out to be a pretty easy affair, and from reading this thread it doesn't seem like it gets any harder. Still enjoying the combat though.

 

[Lacrymas]

I.e. light armor is tankier than heavy?

 

[Delterius]

It's like if you told me that evil didn't actually win ....

Haven't played the good ame, but I think you just hit the mark there. Consider the initial answer to your question. There's magic in this setting and certain characters have the power to level entire cities. Individuals can trump whole armies in Tyranny, despite the idea that how one raises and equips said armies should matter in this world. From the sound of it, the setting is about as Bronze Age as World of Warcraft. It is as if somebody fell in love with a concept but forgot to consider all the ways it should impact the history and nature of the new world.

But all of those elements are in the Iliad, and it feels very different from Shanarra.​

Sure, but I'd argue that the emphasys Tyranny's marketing put on iron production and military logistics would place such epics squarely on the role of legends. Or at the very least in the fringes of this world. My impression is that the powers avaiable to rulers in Tyranny's world completely break the impending Iron Age narrative.

 

[rezaf]

Hmm. I just kinda accidentally finished the game, I guess.
For the longest time it didn't occur to me that I might be reaching the end. I upgraded a single spire - with a smithy, in which I never could craft anything because I didn't have enough ... whatever guys crafting requires.
I had three edicts still locked and never got to travel to that library with the fire edict. When I first noticed it being on the map it was an inactive location, and then ... yeah, the game kinda ended.
For what it's worth, I managed to get Graven Ashe and Tunon to bend their knees and killed Bleden Mark and the Ashes of Nerat.
Then Tunon kinda proclaimed that the Overlord had dispatched an army to get me (why? Didn't I just fulfill his command by becoming the one-archon-to-rule-them-all?), I beamed to the mountain spire, cast an edict ... and the credits started to roll.
Did I accidentally skip half the game somehow?
Because the savegame counter says I've played 25 hours (and I've been idling afk for a couple of those), and that sounds pretty lousy for an RPG like this.

When all is said and done, this feels like massive decline in just about every way from Pillars of Eternity.
After what you guys wrote about the "branching storyline" I'm not sure I even want to bother replaying with other choices, at least not right away. At least it'd be a breeze, I guess?
Or maybe I should wait for all the DLC. Cause 25 hours can't be the full experience, right? RIGHT?

 

[Bleed the Man]

Hmm. I just kinda accidentally finished the game, I guess.
For the longest time it didn't occur to me that I might be reaching the end. I upgraded a single spire - with a smithy, in which I never could craft anything because I didn't have enough ... whatever guys crafting requires.
I had three edicts still locked and never got to travel to that library with the fire edict. When I first noticed it being on the map it was an inactive location, and then ... yeah, the game kinda ended.
For what it's worth, I managed to get Graven Ashe and Tunon to bend their knees and killed Bleden Mark and the Ashes of Nerat.
Then Tunon kinda proclaimed that the Overlord had dispatched an army to get me (why? Didn't I just fulfill his command by becoming the one-archon-to-rule-them-all?), I beamed to the mountain spire, cast an edict ... and the credits started to roll.
Did I accidentally skip half the game somehow?
Because the savegame counter says I've played 25 hours (and I've been idling afk for a couple of those), and that sounds pretty lousy for an RPG like this.

When all is said and done, this feels like massive decline in just about every way from Pillars of Eternity.
After what you guys wrote about the "branching storyline" I'm not sure I even want to bother replaying with other choices, at least not right away. At least it'd be a breeze, I guess?
Or maybe I should wait for all the DLC. Cause 25 hours can't be the full experience, right? RIGHT?

25 hours is the exact number of hours they've been constantly advertising. The objective was to have more branching elements with this shorter experience.