Game News Tyranny Dev Diary #5: Combat Mechanics

[Fenix]

It's not a disaster, it is just visibly mediocre.

 

[Sizzle]

But Pillars IS fun in PoTD.



Fuck the story. The only thing that is missing in the game is invulnerabilities, better boss fights, have actual fun wizard battles.

No, it is even less fun on higher difficulty. Disengagement, clusterfuck combat and needing to pause every 1s second kill all the fun.

Disagree.
I dont think its bad especially high levels the power level between you and enemies equalizes, yes you have to pause a lot but I have never seen a rtwp game go to this depth. My only criticism is that the game normal speed is way too fast, they should have made the animations to sync to slow mode.

The combat is good and can evolve into something better.

Well you are pretty much alone on 'Dex with that opinion.

Nah, lots of guys on the 'Dex like it well enough.

Not the ones that count

The vote for best game showed how much really like it. It was like bottom 5 game or something.

Keep in mind that that vote was for the pre-v3 PoE - now it's an almost completely different game than the buggy mess it was when it first came out.

 

[ArchAngel]

Combat is not. It is still a disengagement attacks clusterfuck with need to pause every 1 second. Only good thing is that now your characters can get semi competent AI so you can let the game play itself some of the time.

 

[Sizzle]

Combat is not. It is still a disengagement attacks clusterfuck with need to pause every 1 second. Only good thing is that now your characters can get semi competent AI so you can let the game play itself some of the time.

Combat was also improved. While it still has a lot of flaws - it's a lot better than it was.

And even if you still completely hate it, they've added a lower difficulty mode, so you can breeze through it even faster.

 

[undecaf]

It is still a disengagement attacks clusterfuck with need to pause every 1 second.

True, true.

The follies of RTwP combat... Having to watch automated combat happen on its own for the most part or having to pause too often to micromanage the mess it is; and always being a clusterfuck.

Should've just made it turnbased.

 

[ArchAngel]

Combat is not. It is still a disengagement attacks clusterfuck with need to pause every 1 second. Only good thing is that now your characters can get semi competent AI so you can let the game play itself some of the time.

Combat was also improved. While it still has a lot of flaws - it's a lot better than it was.

And even if you still completely hate it, they've added a lower difficulty mode, so you can breeze through it even faster.

Only thing improved was enemy AI that will not just attack first guy they see. It does nothing for the real problems of the game.

 

[Sizzle]

Combat is not. It is still a disengagement attacks clusterfuck with need to pause every 1 second. Only good thing is that now your characters can get semi competent AI so you can let the game play itself some of the time.

Combat was also improved. While it still has a lot of flaws - it's a lot better than it was.

And even if you still completely hate it, they've added a lower difficulty mode, so you can breeze through it even faster.

Only thing improved was enemy AI that will not just attack first guy they see. It does nothing for the real problems of the game.

While the combat is still bad (though that's par for the course - it's RTWP after all), it's different than it was at v1 - a lot of it, like attributes, class abilities (for example, ranger is now a pretty good class), feats, spells, items, etc. was changed for the better.

If they can make the fights less clusterfuckish and more transparent - PoE 2 might actually have semi-enjoyable combat.

Tyranny looks a bit better in that regards, so let's hope so.

 

[ArchAngel]

None of those changes fixed Disengagement, clusterfuck (which is partly fault of spell animations) or needing to pause too often.

And don't say RTwP is at fault because BG games had no such problems.

 

[Sizzle]

The biggest problem with PoE's combat is that's it's often confusing to figure out what exactly is happening - who's attacking whom, when a spell/ability is being set off. A chaotic mess. That lack of easily observable information is the fundamental problem which, unfortunately, will never be fixed.

All the other stuff, like disengagement (a good idea in theory, and in the latest version there are more ways than ever to easily break it), is just a symptom of it.

 

[Fenix]

ranger is now a pretty good class

Btw, ranger still have stunning blows (don't remember actual name) in melee from 3.0?

 

[Crescent Hawk]

Truth is and everybody knows it, POE shows competence, its a fucking good game. I love its looks and style, but the bland world and rtwp combat took codexers to hyperbole levels of hate.


In my dreams an Obsidian which is not gripped with fear, would probably make a classic greyhawk adventure with this engine and make it turn based. Thats why iam hyped for Divos2 , because frankly the first didnt do it for me.

 

[vortex]

In my dreams an Obsidian which is not gripped with fear, would probably make a classic greyhawk adventure with this engine and make it turn based..

That my worst nightmare. I would like good Baldur's gate spiritual successor with RTWP featuring Sword coast stratagems mod. It rewamp real time gameplay. Something like this could be even improved.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Keep in mind that that vote was for the pre-v3 PoE - now it's an almost completely different game than the buggy mess it was when it first came out.

Lol. POE's problems were due to systems and not due bugs, balance or comestic bullshit. It's a pipe dream to believe that it can be saved with patches...

The can also be said about WL2 or DOS. The former is not strategic and the later becomes boring quite quickly. None of these problems can be saved with few patches...

My point is this. If you have missed on player feedback during beta its over.Thus, imo companies that fail to capitalize on customer feedback make poor games. I know a shocker.

 

[Sizzle]

Keep in mind that that vote was for the pre-v3 PoE - now it's an almost completely different game than the buggy mess it was when it first came out.

Lol. POE's problems were due to systems and not due bugs, balance or comestic bullshit. It's a pipe dream to believe that it can be saved with patches...

Never said the latest version makes for good combat, only that it's better than what it was. I hope that they've learned what made it bad (Tyranny looks a lot less chaotic in that regard, so here's hoping) and will improve it in the sequel.

The can also be said about WL2 or DOS. The former is not strategic and the later becomes boring quite quickly. None of these problems can be saved with few patches...

Gave up in WL2 at the Canyon (did not find the game fun at all). D:OS had alright gameplay and systems, but the writing was tedious.

Speaking of which, I can't wait to see Avellone's writing in the sequel, should make for a much improved game (even if the Undead origin will be the only universally played story here at the Codex :D ).

 

[DeepOcean]

but the bland world and rtwp combat took codexers to hyperbole levels of hate.

Yeah son, I wished while I was bored and frustrated having to kill another trashmob on the trash mega dungeon to have someone to tell me "DeepOcean, the hatred and desire to kill Obsidian employees and strangle Sawyer and Feargus for wasting your time with their big BS spewing mouths, you are feeling right now is an hyperbole constructed by the sublimation of your edgy codexian subconscious. You were molested on the childhood by RtwP, despite enjoying all the Infinity Engine games, you enjoyed them because of Stockholm syndrome and nostalgia, on secret you couldn't forget the original molestation and your secret hate for RtwP just expressed itself at PoE. It isn't that the combat feels clunky, slow, without tactics, repetitive, the abilities and attacks don't feel like they have impact and with no clear feedback for what you and the enemies are doing, no, it is the irrational hatred towards RtwP."

 

[Infinitron]

but the bland world and rtwp combat took codexers to hyperbole levels of hate.

Yeah son, I wished while I was bored and frustrated having to kill another trashmob on the trash mega dungeon to have someone to tell me "DeepOcean, the hatred and desire to kill Obsidian employees and strangle Sawyer and Feargus for wasting your time with their big BS spewing mouths, you are feeling right now is an hyperbole constructed by the sublimation of your edgy codexian subconscious. You were molested on the childhood by RtwP, despite enjoying all the Infinity Engine games, you enjoyed them because of Stockholm syndrome and nostalgia, on secret you couldn't forget the original molestation and your secret hate for RtwP just expressed itself at PoE. It isn't that the combat feels clunky, slow, without tactics, repetitive, the abilities and attacks don't feel like they have impact and with no clear feedback for what you and the enemies are doing, no, it is the irrational hatred towards RtwP."

Irrational? Not at all.

Sometimes it takes a person who isn't a Codex grognard to pierce through the obscurantism and point out the root of the problem: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=32829#comment-1040898

I went from thinking RTWP the ideal CRPG system during the BG2 era, to thinking “eh, it plays okay” for DA1, to “I can’t stand this” for Pillars of Eternity. Of course, my changing preference from large-scale party-based combat to low-combat solo character-based RPGs have had a hand in it too, and the end result is that what I want in an RPG today is more or less completely the opposite of what I wanted fifteen years ago.

On the other hand, I still absolutely adore new XCOM, so maybe the main point I want to make is that I really want some clear separation in the genres, instead of having them mashed together in a compromise dish.

Um, to get back on topic, RTWP sucks. For RPGs.

I mostly tolerated RTWP in Planescape and Icewind Dale 2, but it’s worth keeping in mind how much has changed in the game systems between then and now. As shpelley mentioned, for 2E-styled games, most of your party members don’t really have any options beyond “smack thing.” So you only had 2 or 3 units with any amount of actual complexity, and spell slots were so limited that you weren’t actually forced to make a lot of decisions during combat. Icewind Dale 2 was 3E, but even that was mostly the same, with casters having more spell slots but everybody else basically just being a sack of hammers. RTWP still sucks, but it’s manageable once you realize that half or more of your party can just be on perpetual auto-pilot.

Where it goes from annoying to trash heap is when you get into modern games like Dragon Age that up the complexity across the board. When every party member has a dozen+ unique abilities AND those abilities are gated both by stamina/mana and individual cooldowns, then you can screw right off. If you go on autopilot, key abilities are going to be unavailable in a pinch because the AI spammed them on cooldown. So instead you’re incentivized to constantly pause and micromanage while using AI settings smart enough to do something but dumb enough to not do anything that might be important.

This is exactly why I hate the combat in Pillars of Eternity. There’s just too much complexity for me. When I heard it was RTwP, I assumed it would be like BG2 (which I really like), where it’s only magic users that have multiple choices about how to approach an encounter and other classes might only have two or three choices at best. But this meant that each encounter was very manageable to me, especially when combat is the part of an RPG that interests me the least.

And Pillars really seems to have FAR too much combat (and loads of extra fights if you want them!).

I also did not enjoy the RTwP in Pillars of Eternity or Planescape or Dragon Age 1. I didn’t particularly like it in Baldur’s gate either but I never got far with it.

The only time it’s ever really been actively enjoyed by me is in the Knights of the Old Republic games and that’s because it’s _ultra_ simple. The default in those games is do nothing, or just control your own character. Taking actions is the rarity.

KOTOR got it to the point where it didn’t really feel like Real Time with Pause to me, it felt like a normal turn-based system with some clever window dressing.

You’ve explained what always bothered me about RTWP that I could never put my finger on. Thanks!

 

[Cosmo]

There’s just too much complexity for me.

Totally agree ; i'll add that the concern of making every class "relevant" and full of abilities goes against combat flow and readability.
Basically i think every RTwP's designer should be concerned with "unclusterfucking" the combat on a fundamental level. Sawyer's gamist tendencies and talk about directly building something around RTwP made me have hopes they'd go in that direction, but they chose to be subservient to D&D instead (at least an interpretation of it)...
I hope they'll have the balls to make drastic changes for PoE 2 but Sawyer doen't seems too keen on questioning the very basics of his systems : endlessly tweaking is fine i guess but i can become sort of a smokescreen foer the real issues.

 

[Sannom]

Irrational? Not at all.

Sometimes it takes a person who isn't a Codex grognard to pierce through the obscurantism and point out the root of the problem

I had completely forgotten about that piece. The most recent one he did was about 4X games like Civilization or the like, and yes, that sounded absolutely terrible. So I thought, hey, maybe he's not actively against it when the game is faster paced? Turns out, no.

 

[Fenix]

Irrational? Not at all.

Infinitron - you are the Bro, I wish I could hug you. Very good texts, that

explained what always bothered me about RTWP that I could never put my finger on. Thanks!

Huge thanks!

 

[Crescent Hawk]

What I really wanted was just an improved temple of elemental evil, classic adventure.

 

[Lurker King]

still absolutely adore new XCOM

Um, to get back on topic, RTWP sucks. For RPGs.

No, they suck for any game because they are intrinsically awful.

modern games like Dragon Age that up the complexity across the board. When every party member has a dozen+ unique abilities AND those abilities are gated both by stamina/mana and individual cooldowns, then you can screw right off. So instead you’re incentivized to constantly pause and micromanage while using AI settings smart enough to do something but dumb enough to not do anything that might be important.

What? This guy is saying that DA is more complex than previous RtwP?

This is exactly why I hate the combat in Pillars of Eternity. There’s just too much complexity for me. When I heard it was RTwP, I assumed it would be like BG2 (which I really like), where it’s only magic users that have multiple choices about how to approach an encounter and other classes might only have two or three choices at best.

Nooooooooo! I'm not reading this. This is too much for me to handle. PoE has more things to choose, but they all amount next to nothing since you can beat almost every fight as a one tricky poony. The system, just like Sawyer's talking, seems sophisticated on the outside, but offers nothing really substancial. It's pseudo-complexity.

KOTOR felt like a normal turn-based system with some clever window dressing.

Inb4: Yes, excessive micromanagement is retarded.

 

[hpstg]

Your problem with the piece, Lurker King, is your interpretation of the word "complexity".

We like sophisticated, not necessarily complex. In fact, the ideal system should be intricate and sophisticated but NOT complex.

 

[ArchAngel]

There’s just too much complexity for me.

Totally agree ; i'll add that the concern of making every class "relevant" and full of abilities goes against combat flow and readability.
Basically i think every RTwP's designer should be concerned with "unclusterfucking" the combat on a fundamental level. Sawyer's gamist tendencies and talk about directly building something around RTwP made me have hopes they'd go in that direction, but they chose to be subservient to D&D instead (at least an interpretation of it)...
I hope they'll have the balls to make drastic changes for PoE 2 but Sawyer doen't seems too keen on questioning the very basics of his systems : endlessly tweaking is fine i guess but i can become sort of a smokescreen foer the real issues.

Full of abilities is not a problem, how it is integrated into the system is. PoE abilities could have worked really well if there was a global round timer like in BG games instead of each fucking ability or attack having its own attack and recovery speed. Sawyer went for complexity for complexity sake and fucked up the game.