Ultima Ultima 7=Decline?

[mondblut]

Boring and useless topic in order to gather brofists from the wizardry fans. A barely, poorly, disguised "what is a rpg ?"thread....This has been discussed to death already.So yes the thing to do then is to brofist utima 7 fans instead.

 

[Melan]

Was Heart of the Maelstrom decline after The Return of Werdna? And are you a lesser man if you can only finish The Return of Werdna on Master instead of Grandmaster? These are very relevant and contemporary questions!

SRSLY, the Ultima series never had the fiddly depth of Wizardry (and Wizardry never had the fiddly depth of the truly FATE). Quest of the Avatar had boring and repetitive combat, and Warriors of Destiny quickly devolved into abusing magic axes. Ultima is mainly interesting because it tried to create a living world that had its own sense of place and history, and was populated by characters who weren't just glorified quest beacons. That's a legit way of building an RPG, and The Black Gate does it very well - better than the previous Ultimas, and better than, say, Crusaders of the Dark Savant (which remains my top CRPG for entirely different reasons). It had unprecedented levels of setting interaction, open-ended exploration with a gradually unfolding central plotline, and a degree of customisation you don't find in The False Prophet. It is a success.

It has elements I am not fond of, like the Renfaire-inspired world or the mostly unrewarding combat, but nothing is perfect. (Serpent Isle adds a much more compelling setting, but turns the plot into a very linear experience). The real shame is that U7 was not a step towards even better games, but the high water mark of a great game series, which took a steep nosedive with Pagan and ended with the promises of fans.txt. But U7 on its own is not decline in any shape, and someone attempting to push that agenda is trying to sell horseshit.

TL;DR, OP is a delusional twit trying to appear 1337 by putting down good games.

 

[mondblut]

SRSLY, the Elder Scrolls series never had the fiddly depth of Wizardry (and Wizardry never had the fiddly depth of the truly FATE). Arena had boring and repetitive combat, and Daggerfall quickly devolved into abusing spellmaker. TES is mainly interesting because it tried to create a living world that had its own sense of place and history, and was populated by characters who weren't just glorified quest beacons. That's a legit way of building an RPG, and Oblivion does it very well - better than the previous Elder Scrolls, and better than, say, Crusaders of the Dark Savant (which remains my top CRPG for entirely different reasons). It had unprecedented levels of setting interaction, open-ended exploration with a gradually unfolding central plotline, and a degree of customisation you don't find in Morrowind. It is a success.

It has elements I am not fond of, like the Renfaire-inspired world or the mostly unrewarding combat, but nothing is perfect. (Shivering Isles adds a much more compelling setting, but turns the plot into a very linear experience). The real shame is that Oblivion was not a step towards even better games, but the high water mark of a great game series, which took a steep nosedive with Skyrim and ended with the promises of TES Online. But Oblivion on its own is not decline in any shape, and someone attempting to push that agenda is trying to sell horseshit.

TL;DR, OP is a delusional twit trying to appear 1337 by putting down good games.

Methinks two series are getting confused?

 

[Mortmal]

Boring and useless topic in order to gather brofists from the wizardry fans. A barely, poorly, disguised "what is a rpg ?"thread....This has been discussed to death already.So yes the thing to do then is to brofist utima 7 fans instead.

No not butthurt at all. I know all there is to know about ultima and wizardries . Just sad to see those inane threads popping all the time and newfags shitting on good old games , 20 years old at least games . Probably after reading a wkikipedia sum up, claiming decline to get Kool Kodex Kredit. .Its boring inane but people still got bait and brofist that shit.
A sane moderator would retardo this all .

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

I was working in a carpet warehouse while in college at the time. A couple of guys there were also into U7 and each day we would talk about our exploits from the night before. Good times.

Following the U7 games, UO was the next and last great Ultima. "Pre-Patch" UO is to this day the greatest MMO ever IMO and was really a progression of U7s design, adding things like stat and skill progression. The PVP was delicious.

 

[Agesilaus]

Ultima 7 is one of those precious few games that is just as enjoyable today as it was 20 something years ago. The graphics are still beautiful, the gameplay is just as fun, and the world is every bit as engrossing as it was in the early-mid 90s. If you are talking shit about Ultima 7, well, you probably lack any redeeming qualities.

 

[Abelian]

Methinks two series are getting confused?

That was brilliant, man

 

[TheGreatOne]

No not butthurt at all. I know all there is to know about ultima and wizardries . Just sad to see those inane threads popping all the time and newfags shitting on good old games , 20 years old at least games . Probably after reading a wkikipedia sum up, claiming decline to get Kool Kodex Kredit. .Its boring inane but people still got bait and brofist that shit.
A sane moderator would retardo this all .

Just because something is old doesn't mean it's automatically good or that it can't be scrutinized. "C'mon bro, it's a classic!" is no reason why a 20 year old game can't be criticized for the kind of design that would be considered bad in a 10 year old or a modern game. Except if those flaws are caused by technological and budget limitations rather than deliberate design choices. But we all know that technology wasn't holding RPG design back anymore in 1992, so developers didn't have to make real time games anymore, as turn based combat combat systems had become a viable option.

Ultima 7 is one of those precious few games that is just as enjoyable today as it was 20 something years ago. The graphics are still beautiful, the gameplay is just as fun, and the world is every bit as engrossing as it was in the early-mid 90s.

I never said anything about whether the game is enjoyable or not. Nor did I criticize it's graphics. I questioned the notion that it's one of the greatest CRPGs of all time.

If you are talking shit about Ultima 7, well, you probably lack any redeeming qualities.

Oh yeah? Well

If you act like an emotional fanboy with the reading comprehension skills of a 12 year old, you probably aren't capable of evaluating game design objectively. I like the game well enough, having finished BG twice (2nd time just before posting this thread) and SI once, but how I feel about the game myself is irrelevant. There was a similar thread about Fallout 1 on this forum too. If you understand game design and the history of the genre, then you should be able to debunk those claims with out resorting to heresy/newfag/"but it's a classic" arguments (*). But if you're a mere fanboy, then you're no different from Kotaku readers who think that Mass Effect, Fallout 3&New Vegas, Skyrim and Dragon Age are the greatest RPGs of all time. And if you're in that crowd, good luck trying to argue the case for any old game because there are 20 RPS drones for every one person who has ever played a game that was made before 2004. However when you base your arguments on game design, then "what's the best RPG of all time" isn't just an inane popularity contest where the mass marketed AAA shit will always prevail. But the same principles of meritocracy should apply to old and new games alike. If you can analyze why modern games are shit, you should also be able to analyze and explain why the gold old games that are near and dear to you are better than most/all modern games.
*=Provided the person making that claim isn't some retarded Xbox kid who claims all old games are bad because they have bad graphics and you cant press the awesome button to blow off peoples heads as soon as you start the game.

 

[Abelian]

But we all know that technology wasn't holding RPG design back anymore in 1992, so developers didn't have to make real time games anymore, as turn based combat combat systems had become a viable option.

Turn based gameplay is significantly easier to implement than real time.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Technologically this game broke a lot of barriers; most Ultimas set the tech bar for their times and U7 was second only to Ultima Underworld, which is still the top shelf 3D RPG all these years later.

In Oblation to the great Stygian Abyss I don the Avatar of the diminutive Shank Lick, of Level 4.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Turn based gameplay is significantly easier to implement than real time.

It's a common belief amongst plebs that old CRPGs only had turn-based combat because of technological limitations. In other words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oywfsv2SJNg&t=3m8s

 

[Abelian]

Turn based gameplay is significantly easier to implement than real time.

It's a common belief amongst the plebs that old CRPGs only had turn-based combat because of technological limitations. In other words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oywfsv2SJNg&t=3m8s

I'm confused now: in your previous post you seemed to imply that due to new technology, devs could make TB combat instead of RT. Were you trolling, switched the terms around by mistake or did I misinterpret your post?

But we all know that technology wasn't holding RPG design back anymore in 1992, so developers didn't have to make real time games anymore, as turn based combat systems had become a viable option.

 

[mondblut]

Just sad to see those inane threads popping all the time and newfags shitting on good old games , 20 years old at least games .

Oh, but the thing is, it is being shat upon not because it is 20 years old, quite the opposite. It is being shat upon because it embodies the exact same bullshit we find insufferable in the games of today. It is nExTgEn to its rotten core.

 

[mondblut]

But we all know that technology wasn't holding RPG design back anymore in 1992, so developers didn't have to make real time games anymore, as turn based combat combat systems had become a viable option.

Turn based gameplay is significantly easier to implement than real time.

Tell that to Pong and Space Invaders devs

 

[Abelian]

Turn based gameplay is significantly easier to implement than real time.

Tell that to Pong and Space Invaders devs

Funny enough, I was going to say that I would find it more annoying to implement Pong rather than chess (just the core game; I'm not talking about AI, mind you).

 

[Tramboi]

After all, real-time is turn-based with 1/60Hz turn times.

More seriously, you have to work much more on the performance on a real-time game for a smooth experience.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

.. not to mention AI (except I just did)

 

[wakawaka]

I can remember buying ULTIMA IV game in, I think, 1987. The disk. The cloth map. The lead ankh. The excitement. Simply superb.
Playing hours on end in a game world which was great although the graphics and maybe the gameplay compared to today's standards were rather poor.
But it was fun to no end-still is when playing this game and its brother ULTIMA V today.
When ULTIMA VI came out, something had changed. I don't know what it is, but this game didn't feel the same as the two before. Also, I remember when playing U4 and 5 you could hack and slay yourself rich and powerful across the land and dungeons. In ULTIMA VI you started to SEARCH FOR combat. The world was pretty civilized, compared to the more 'raw' world of U4 and 5. The storyline was there but you could simply ignore it and hack and slay onwards. In U6 and especially U7 you were DRIVEN ALONG by the storyline. The chars would talk and talk and talk....U6 and 7 were the first Ultima games i came across which started to bore me. Either I was growing up or whatever. But I didn't 'like' them as much as the U4&5.

To me the decline is in forcing you to follow the narration and quests!

The villain in U7 was horrible, too.

 

[TheGreatOne]

U7 part 2 has like 4-5 times as much dialogue as U7, there are usually as many dialogue options as in Planescape: Torment if not more. Well not really dialogue options in the sense that you get to roleplay (though there's a bit of that), just different branching exposition dumps.

 

[DraQ]

Methinks two series are getting confused?

That was brilliant, man

I'm deeply butthurt by Oblivion being mentioned as anything but U9 counterpart.

 

[TheGreatOne]

I'm deeply butthurt by this piece of shit placing higher on the Codex RPG list than any Gold box game, any Wizardry game, KOTC, TOEE, JA2 and Deus Ex, SS2, Icewind Dale 1&2 and Ultima IV&V, among others.

 

[DraQ]

I'm deeply butthurt by this piece of shit placing higher on the Codex RPG list than any Gold box game, any Wizardry game, KOTC, TOEE, JA2 and Deus Ex, SS2, Icewind Dale 1&2 and Ultima IV&V, among others.

SS2 should autofail any cRPG list entry requirements by the virtue of RPG elements actually making it a shittier game for most part.

 

[TheGreatOne]

That's why I mentioned games that didn't have that good combat or were RT/RTWP in a different category. Still, better than TES. Playing UO, WoW or Just Cause 2 provides the same experience with better gameplay.

 

[Beastro]

Watched Gamehorders U7 LP and am half way through the Serpent's Isle. I have to say with his voiced dialogue it's very enjoyable, but just watching it I was happy to avoid the combat and it's damn fun hearing him rage when the AI companions do stupid shit, like opening a door for the Avatar to charge a horde of mobs only for everyone else to side step and charge behind the door to get stuck leaving him fighting alone.

Whatever it's shitty qualities, I have to say even Part 1s writing is good and makes up for a rather on the face of it bland series of quests. Had the Fellowship and such been handled by anyone else it would have been unbearable. Part2 though is awesome with the mythology of it and the history of the towns, taking both generic fantasy and the series own history and putting a nice twist on them.

 

[Electryon]

Anyone playing Ultima VII for any reason other than experiencing one of the most involved and interactive game worlds in RPG history is doing it wrong. The whole point of the game is to marvel that you are in a world that is actually functioning. And considering when it was made, the fact that 99% of open world games that have come after it have failed to live up to it's pedigree in that area is proof positive of it's classic status.