KickStarter Underworld Ascendant Pre-Prototype Thread

[Infinitron]

Hey, I'm not the one who gets disappointed all the time.

I'm sure the final game will be less than what they dream of, but what I'm seeing is here is the idea that they shouldn't even be allowed to talk about said dreams unless they're backed up with HARD CODE and the shiny graphics to match.

It reminds me of that Programmers vs Designers mud fight that Marsal and Vault Dweller had a while back: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...al-designers-vs-programmers-cage-match.85395/ (read it, it's fun stuff)

Sorry - That wasn't my point. If they want to share idea's fine. I just don't think we should be getting hyped or sucking their dick until Code is produced. They are free to discuss what they want obviously.

My point is - how many failed kickstarters that were all dream and no substance from well known "OLD SKOOL" devs do we need before we start putting our fanboy jars of cum back on the shelf and start judging them with a more critical eye.. Everyone and their mom has a Friend of a friend who copied papers in the backroom at Interplay. I just don't care anymore, getting burned too many times.

Well, fine. I'm not super-enthusiastic or anything. Yeah, I think their environment/biome ideas are cool, but I've also (gently!) mocked the game for looking like it's going to be "Underworld Ecology Simulator 2017".

My guess is they might end up using the KS money to produce a prototype that they can shop to investors to get more money (which maybe will allow them to fulfill their co-op/VR dreams as well). I don't think these guys have put their careers on hold just to produce a substandard game, and they have the connections and reputations to make that possible.

 

[Immortal]

Hey, I'm not the one who gets disappointed all the time.

I'm sure the final game will be less than what they dream of, but what I'm seeing is here is the idea that they shouldn't even be allowed to talk about said dreams unless they're backed up with HARD CODE and the shiny graphics to match.

It reminds me of that Programmers vs Designers mud fight that Marsal and Vault Dweller had a while back: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...al-designers-vs-programmers-cage-match.85395/ (read it, it's fun stuff)

Sorry - That wasn't my point. If they want to share idea's fine. I just don't think we should be getting hyped or sucking their dick until Code is produced. They are free to discuss what they want obviously.

My point is - how many failed kickstarters that were all dream and no substance from well known "OLD SKOOL" devs do we need before we start putting our fanboy jars of cum back on the shelf and start judging them with a more critical eye.. Everyone and their mom has a Friend of a friend who copied papers in the backroom at Interplay. I just don't care anymore, getting burned too many times.

Well, fine. I'm not super-enthusiastic or anything. Yeah, I think their environment/biome ideas are cool, but I've also (gently!) mocked the game for looking like it's going to be "Underworld Ecology Simulator 2017".

My guess is they might end up using the KS money to produce a prototype that they can shop to investors to get more money (which maybe will allow them to fulfill their co-op/VR dreams as well). I don't think these guys have put their careers on hold just to produce a substandard game, and they have the connections and reputations to make that possible.

That is extremely risky and if they can't find a publisher or investor who wants to bite that cost - you are gonna have a lot of people up shit's creek with explosion_prefab_barrel02.asset to show for it.

 

[Infinitron]

My sense is that they might already have those investors waiting in line. That's where the undisclosed extra money is from.

We'll see, though. They promised serious gameplay footage by August.

 

[CyberP]

snip.

Bottom line, they need (and deserve) more money. The investors likely haven't been very happy with the KS turnout either, for that matter.
The struggle continues...their legacy continues.

I agree with everything you said except that.. They have not produced anything that deserved money IMO. As I said before, Nostaliga is running thin with all these failed kickstarters.

Just because Richard Garriot and Chris Taylor made good games in the past does not mean their kickstarters of fairy dust and dream clouds were any good - in fact they have turned into cringe worthy failures.. and that's just 2 of many.. These Dev's are crawling out of the woodwork and when your last shipped product needs DoS Box to run - it's time to accept the fact that times have changed...

I'm sorry - your passion alone won't make these things happen.

Yes. I'm skeptical too. But conversely very hopeful. I love these guys and have waited a long time for something to rival their old stuff.
We got New Vegas, that does rival an Immersive Sim in many respects, but I just can't get enough. For me the design progression must not stop, there's much potential.

 

[Immortal]

Sorry - That wasn't my point. If they want to share idea's fine. I just don't think we should be getting hyped or sucking their dick until Code is produced. .

Well...

Function PledgePotatoSpam()
{
local int i;

   for(i=0,i<100000,i++)
   {
     Print("PLEDGE ALL YOUR POTATO AND VIAGRA!");
   }
}

Now suck my dick and pledge all your potato.

Were you trying to write that in C? I don't think that's gonna compile.. so no potato..

 

[CyberP]

Unrealscript. Similar to C. Based upon it actually. It's now redundant though since the fairly recent abandonment of it in Unreal4.

 

[Immortal]

Unrealscript. Similar to C. Based upon it actually. It's now redundant though since the fairly recent abandonment of it in Unreal4.

Ahhh. It looked similar to C but the for loop and variable declaration was off.. unless the ANSI C standard has changed in the last 6 months.
Unreal has gone to native C++ / Blueprints now? It's actually much faster / better optimized.

EDIT:
From what I heard - I am no expert with Unreal

 

[CyberP]

Yeah that was their stated intention: to switch solely to C++ for speed and flexibility. Uscript & Javascript is all I know though (and not exceptionally well, either), but I think I should be able to make the transition to C++ just fine if I give it a shot.

 

[Immortal]

Yeah that was their stated intention, to switch solely to C++ for speed and flexibility. Uscript & Javascript is all I know though, but I think I should be able to make the transition to C++ just fine if I give it a shot.

Going from C to C++ was the greatest experience I ever had.. I actually can't code functionally anymore.. I need strict object hierarchy or I go mental. (The exception being when I am dealing directly with assembly or something.. C works very well for Jumping in and out of the stack)

EDIT:
I hate Javascript - Typeless Parameters / Variables has caused more head scratching wtf why doesn't it work moments then anything I've ever dealt with.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

They promised serious gameplay footage by August.

That's what I've been waiting for - something tangible instead of all this talk and blogging.

 

[CyberP]

Going from C to C++ was the greatest experience ever.. I actually can't code functionally anymore.. I need strict object hierarchy or I go mental. (The exception being when I am dealing directly with assembly or something.. C works very well for Jumping in and out of the stack)

Hmm. I may come to you with questions if I attempt the transition, if you don't mind.

 

[Immortal]

Going from C to C++ was the greatest experience ever.. I actually can't code functionally anymore.. I need strict object hierarchy or I go mental. (The exception being when I am dealing directly with assembly or something.. C works very well for Jumping in and out of the stack)

Hmm. I may come to you with questions if I attempt the transition, if you don't mind.

Send me a PM anytime, I would be curious what your working on.

 

[Darkzone]

EDIT:
I hate Javascript - Typeless Parameters / Variables has caused more head scratching wtf why doesn't it work moments then anything I've ever dealt with.

Ohh how i hated javascript for this until the poeple started to write:
var value : float=10.0;

And Python can be even worse: no brackets!

 

[resilient sphere]

I read a lot of this thread because Ultima Underworld is one of my favourite games (which was probably obvious from the name + avatar anyway) but I'm seeing cause for concern in the content of the design pitches and kickstarter updates. The improvisational system in particular reminds me of what Oblivion promised us: "free-form adventuring and quest-solving." We know now (and should always have suspected) that that system was a mixture of dreams, lies and not nearly enough effort anyway, but that's a minor point compared to my suspicion that no "free-form adventuring and quest-solving" system could ever convincingly replace hand-crafted puzzles and problems in a dungeon crawler anyhow. If you look back at Underworld 1 you'll find a very completionist game where the Avatar had to solve every puzzle and visit almost every location to win and, unless you count the shortcuts that the Fly spell provided, every one of those scenarios had one good solution which felt satisfying and correct.

Of course I'm not suggesting that they remake UU1 from the ground up, but they seem to be replacing the absolutely rock-solid concepts of that game with airy stuff which sounds like lies and nonsense when you read it back off the press release in your own voice. At least there's a humorous mini-cutscene where the avatar nails together a small rowboat made out of batwings in our future?

 

[Darkzone]

The problem is that Otherside is promising nearly too much and with that little money i doubt that this is possible. Only if they work for free for the next 1.5 years and step up a little bit this they can reach half of the things they promise. But on the other hand they have already done something similar with all of the looking glass games. And Tim Stellmach seems quite capable when it comes to understanding the core of the problems. At least he has saw through the trap that i have created. Kickstarters are always full of promises that cannot be fulfilled and how well Otherside will do nobody knows this at the current point. We will know more if they present something that can be used as evidence for their progress on UA, like a demo. Skepticism is one of the best traits of mankind, but believe and support are also not that bad in certain cases. So in other words: Otherside has got to show us something, that goes beyond what they have shown to us, but that has been already written here by Immortal.

 

[CyberP]

My guess is they might end up using the KS money to produce a prototype that they can shop to investors to get more money (which maybe will allow them to fulfill their co-op/VR dreams as well).

Oh shit, I forgot about the fucking co-op.

And Tim Stellmach seems quite capable when it comes to understanding the core of the problems. At least he has saw through the trap that i have created.

Trap?

 

[Darkzone]

And Tim Stellmach seems quite capable when it comes to understanding the core of the problems. At least he has saw through the trap that i have created.

Trap?

Yes at the beginning of their KS, i have asked him about the Lotka Volterra equations (Predator - Prey) and he knew the problem, but naturally for a mathematician this shouldn't be a problem at all. I construct sometimes little traps to see on which level is my discussion partner and if he understands the problem.
http://www.spektrum.de/lexikon/biologie/lotka-volterra-gleichungen/39926
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Lotka-VolterraEquations.html
http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Predator-prey_model
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotka–Volterra_equation
http://www.tiem.utk.edu/~gross/bioed/bealsmodules/predator-prey.html

General introduction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2LPt9z4RJY
Something of stability of dynamic systems for Predator - Prey relation, for beginners:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp4i_Br8-dE

 

[CyberP]

Answers From the Abyss #2

Next week's update will include another installment of 'Answers from the Abyss', where the dev team answers questions posed by our fans. If you have a question about the game or the team, post it here. We'll pick a dozen or so to answer in the update!

 

[Unkillable Cat]

You'd know better than I would, CyberP if they have answered questions about the Ultima Underworld 1 & 2 source code. We know that they have it, but do they have any plans for it?

Releasing updated versions of the games that would run on modern-day OSs, for example, would be a good PR move that helps drum up interest for Underworld Ascendant.

 

[CyberP]

I may come across as fanatical but I'm not actually following this one very closely. I was, but since the KS and the compromises I've shied away some...just holding on to hope.

I am assuming that the source is still tied to EA and the Ultima IP and is therefor ineligible for release? No idea unfortunately, go pester them in that Q&A thread.

Edit: I do remember that they've answered questions about the source code in the recent past though, but I don't remember exactly what the response entailed.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

Fargo manage to re-release wasteland 1, and now promised re-releases of bard's tale 1-2-3, and both are EA properties.

I wonder why they can't make it happen, while system shock one (which runs on the same UU engine) has a portable mod which makes it playable in moden coputers even with mouselook and so on.

 

[CyberP]

https://www.othersideentertainment.com/forum/index.php?topic=140.0

Paul never discussed the specific terms of our license from EA other than to say that we have full rights to use all of the Underworld IP and assets but not Ultima IP. I believe that the specific terms of the license from EA are under an NDA so I doubt Paul can or would want to address them any more specifically than he has already done.

So probably not...but you cannot be certain.

Seriously though, why the fuck has a damn blobber (Bard's tale) done better than an Underworld revival?

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Here is why I am optimistic at the team's ability to deliver.

The whole thing hinges on Paul and Tim. Some will make major technical contributions such as will or Jeff but Tim and Paul are the pivots. UU was built with many fledgeling game devs under expert tutelage.

When Paul speaks about LGS games, he goes directly to the core design principles that made UU and others amazing. He describes moment to moment player experience and how the games were designed to directly support agency, player choice, natural interaction and providing tools to the player. These are front and center in the LGS games. Flexible, natural systems leading to agency and self-narration for the player is rare. LGS games had it. The best modern example I can tink of is Minecraft. - give tools to the player and get out of the way. Paul is a godfather there.

Tim was key implementer of the systems in LGS classics, taking the tenets and manifesting them in engine. He speaks with authority regarding these systems, how to implement them and how to support the LGS tenets. 20 years more experienced, he is giddy to bring tech, better methods, implement what he wished he could 20 years ago. He had been thinking about what he would do differently, better, given the chance for 20 years.

The old titles stand up today as shining examples of how to do it right and these guys were the ones that invented the approach. Immortal you asked for examples... go play a LGS game made 20 years ago.

I don't give a shit about project updates put out by newcomers or people fucking around with Unity 5. When we start seeing manifest what is in the mind's eye of Paul and Tim we can make more accurate assessments.

 

[Sonus]

People ask every month about the rights and source code, and so on. I don't know if I can find it, but I seem to recall that Paul had implied that he's continuing to ask EA and other reachable property holders for more transfer of rights for various titles. I got the sense he wouldn't rightly want to give too much detail, staying cautious and respectful, especially with how fans can get with harassment.

 

[Darkzone]

Doctor Sbaitso
That is a very good post why you are optimistic about UA. And while you concentrate on Paul, i can probe the things behind the environmental mechanics. Currently there hasn't been any nonsense, but it is much in a certain sense, and the small amount of money is the problem in my opinion.
Zep and Immortal in their scepticism are more than correct, because currently we have not seen something that would certainly convince us, like a small demo of the mechanisms in the game.
I admit that i have a biased opinion, because of the environmental mechanics which taint my more objective perception of UA. Simply told: The father of my position is the wish.