Valve killed Arcanum sequel!?

[DalekFlay]

3D Arcanum sounds yay if I'm being honest. Source engine though... meh. For some reason I think everything in Source looks like plastic.

 

[roll-a-die]

's tru, and that's my 2nd biyearly gfx hor.

 

[Azrael the cat]

And nothing of value was lost.

Still I wonder why they even started working on it. Wasnt Arcanum a flop that destroyed Troika?

Volourn has no excuse for his ignorance (not talking about his not liking Arcanum - that's personal taste, and personally I don't think it's their best game either), but you're a newbie so I'll stop laughing long enough to explain why that isn't true:

Arcanum was Troika's first game, and the only game of theirs that had a very very healthy profit. Arcanum was financially successful, and was their highest selling game by a long margin.

So no, it wasn't a flop that destroyed Troika. It wasn't even a flop. It made a lot of money - I don't have links, but if you do a search of the Dex you'll find an interview with one of the founders giving their sales and profits for each game.

ToEE dipped, and was their weakest title. VtM:B ended up selling ok, but had a very slow start due to being unplayable at release.

Even given ToEE's loss, and VtM:B mediocre profit, Troika never had a studio-killing flop. It was lack of a publisher that sunk them - a developer of that size, with a catalogue of only 3 games to their name and operating in a market that is niche but expensive, almost never makes enough money to be self-funded. That means they need more than profitable games. They need a publisher who backs their NEXT project. That is what they failed to get.

It's also the problem facing studios who want to make less expensive games to cater to an intelligent niche market. They can cover their own costs and make a very respectable profit, but if all the publishers remain too retarded to realise there is an opportunity there, they'll still go under due to lack of a financial backer for their next project. Even if they make a profit, they're living from game to game, and it only requires their publisher to go 'hey, these guys will make a safe small profit, but we could use our resources to publish Call of Halo 7 by Biothesda and make LOTS of money', and they're stuck.

Having said that, given they're using the source engine I can't see it being similar to Arcanum 1. Seems like a FPS-rpg set in the Arcanum universe. That's quite a sensible direction to go actually - less likely to scare the publishers, and it would fit the tech/magic dynamic pretty well. But it wouldn't be Arcanum 2.

And again, Arcanum was Troika's biggest selling title.

 

[Azrael the cat]

I would kill for a Bloodlines sequel. But maybe not bloodlines. Werewolf? Wraith?

Shit would be so cash.


Fucking peasants
buying shit like HL

I would kill for a well done Mage the Ascension cRPG.

This. Bloodlines sequel I would gladly buy.

Would make for a good 'pre-planned trilogy/series Bioware-style' game (Bioware style as in pre-planned series, not as in the style of the game). Do a Vampire game, a Werewolf one, and a Mage the Ascension one, being self-contained stories but showing different perspectives of a common through-plot, with carry-over of some of the key characters. Let the Mage deal with the aftermath of Bloodlines' reshuffling of the LA vampire political order, have the Werewolf encounter the Bloodlines character on the way to some other quest (that he's been lured to by an agent working for LaCroix), etc. I'd hate the idea if it was anyone but Troika, but I think they could pull that off without weakening the individual titles - and provides for good sales as the fanboys will automatically want to buy all 3 so long as they like one of them, while in gaming you don't tend to get series-backlash where in film/books people won't buy into a sequel without having read/watched the first entry.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

And nothing of value was lost.

Still I wonder why they even started working on it. Wasnt Arcanum a flop that destroyed Troika?

Volourn has no excuse for his ignorance (not talking about his not liking Arcanum - that's personal taste, and personally I don't think it's their best game either), but you're a newbie so I'll stop laughing long enough to explain why that isn't true:

Arcanum was Troika's first game, and the only game of theirs that had a very very healthy profit. Arcanum was financially successful, and was their highest selling game by a long margin.

So no, it wasn't a flop that destroyed Troika. It wasn't even a flop. It made a lot of money - I don't have links, but if you do a search of the Dex you'll find an interview with one of the founders giving their sales and profits for each game.

ToEE dipped, and was their weakest title. VtM:B ended up selling ok, but had a very slow start due to being unplayable at release.

No.

They started the initial design in 1998 on a steampunk/fantasy crossover computer RPG named Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura and convinced Sierra Entertainment to publish it. The game was launched on August 21, 2001. While criticized for being unpolished and having a bad combat engine, it received in general favorable reviews with an average of 81% on Metacritic.[3] With 234,000 units sold it is, to this date, Troika's best selling game.

After Arcanum was released in 2001, two teams start to work on two separate games. One team created The Temple of Elemental Evil for publisher Atari which was released on the September 26, 2003. It was lauded for the good implementation of the D&D 3.5 system but overall it got mixed reviews due to gameplay bugs and lack of a plot. With a 71% on Metacritic it was the lowest rated Troika game.[4] It sold about 128,000 units.[5]

The other team worked for Activision on Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines. Using an early version of the Source engine, development was finished in October 2004. Due to contractual obligations with Valve Corporation, Activision was not allowed to release the game before Valve released Half-Life 2, scheduled for release in November 2004. Troika Games used the interim period to code a patch into the main program. Bloodlines was released on November 16, 2004 (the same day as Half Life 2). Critics praised Bloodlines' visual, audio and story but warned about a bug-ridden game. It got a rating of 80% on Metacritic,[6] and sold merely 72,000 units.[5]

 

[Xor]

It seemed to me like Bloodlines was out of print shortly after being released. I remember trying to find it a few months after it came out and it wasn't available anywhere. Probably had something to do with Troika going under.

Bloodlines has obviously sold more since after being released on Steam. I would be surprised if it hasn't passed TOEE by now. Not that it does Troika any good.

 

[Shannow]

Those numbers are strange. Where are they from? Walmart sales in North America in the first year?
I distinctly remember an interview that mentions ToEE as being their best selling game in the long run.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

I think ToEE definitely hit the public consciousness the most, albeit that's a rather relative term. I saw it in shops a fair amount, saw a good bit of discussion on it before I was really into RPGs a lot, and even stumbled across a few newspaper reviews and such. By comparison, I'd only heard of in passing.

 

[Volourn]

"(not talking about his not liking Arcanum "

Are you retarted? Anyone who thinks I dislike ARC must be. Dumbass.

But, ARC, was a failure. So much a failure that ARC2 was turned down by Sierra and others.

It may have been Troika's 'mot successful' game but it was not successful.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

ToEE had really shitty marketing in Poland. I had no idea that it was made by the same guys as Arcanum and that it is the most faithful implementation of 3rd ed D&D evah.

 

[Silellak]

Didn't Arcanum also have issues revolving around the fact it was leaked a good time before the release date?

 

[GarfunkeL]

Don't remember it being leaked before-hand. Or at least not much. Troika's problem was that none of their publisher wanted to go steady - they only had one-night stands. OTOH, considering what Obsidian has made so far, it's possible that if they had had a Feargus-type running the show instead of the troika, their games would've been worse off.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Don't remember it being leaked before-hand. Or at least not much. Troika's problem was that none of their publisher wanted to go steady - they only had one-night stands. OTOH, considering what Obsidian has made so far, it's possible that if they had had a Feargus-type running the show instead of the troika, their games would've been worse off.

Think of the positive too:

We might have had an Arcanum SLAM DUNK.

 

[Micmu]

Didn't Arcanum also have issues revolving around the fact it was leaked a good time before the release date?

Yes, it leaked SIX (!) months before the release (publisher held it so they could make simultaneous intl. release, or something...). It was pirated to hell and back and this is one of the main reasons it didn't sell that well (as it could).

 

[Roguey]

Those numbers are strange. Where are they from? Walmart sales in North America in the first year?

NPD (US-retail only) numbers from March 2005.

I distinctly remember an interview that mentions ToEE as being their best selling game in the long run.

Yeah, Mr. B also mentioned in one of his few 'dex posts that ToEE was their fastest-selling.

 

[Jim Cojones]

Those numbers are strange. Where are they from? Walmart sales in North America in the first year?
I distinctly remember an interview that mentions ToEE as being their best selling game in the long run.

It's from NPD which claimed that the numbers they presented cover about 60 percent of American and Canadian market. And even these estimates were disputed by some devs.

Sales of TOEE according to Boyarsky:

I don't have any actual numbers at hand (nor do I know whether I can reveal numbers per our contract, since I don't have that with me at the moment either), but to the best of my knowledge, ToEE was our best seller - or at least our fastest.

(source)

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Too bad that they haven't made another D&D game instead of a Vampire LARP simulator.

 

[Kosmonaut]

Could anybody tell me in a very detailed way, or point me to a review or analysis, why did Arcanum combat sucked? Why is widely considered a badly implemented combat? Thanks.

 

[Volourn]

ARC's combat is decent. Naysers can suck on a lemon. OIn the other hand, BL combat was terribad.

 

[flabbyjack]

Just think of Arx Fatalis as Arcanum II: Journey to the Center of Arcanum. Problem solved. Naysayers have been naysayed.

 

[Azrael the cat]

And nothing of value was lost.

Still I wonder why they even started working on it. Wasnt Arcanum a flop that destroyed Troika?

Volourn has no excuse for his ignorance (not talking about his not liking Arcanum - that's personal taste, and personally I don't think it's their best game either), but you're a newbie so I'll stop laughing long enough to explain why that isn't true:

Arcanum was Troika's first game, and the only game of theirs that had a very very healthy profit. Arcanum was financially successful, and was their highest selling game by a long margin.

So no, it wasn't a flop that destroyed Troika. It wasn't even a flop. It made a lot of money - I don't have links, but if you do a search of the Dex you'll find an interview with one of the founders giving their sales and profits for each game.

ToEE dipped, and was their weakest title. VtM:B ended up selling ok, but had a very slow start due to being unplayable at release.

No.

They started the initial design in 1998 on a steampunk/fantasy crossover computer RPG named Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura and convinced Sierra Entertainment to publish it. The game was launched on August 21, 2001. While criticized for being unpolished and having a bad combat engine, it received in general favorable reviews with an average of 81% on Metacritic.[3] With 234,000 units sold it is, to this date, Troika's best selling game.

After Arcanum was released in 2001, two teams start to work on two separate games. One team created The Temple of Elemental Evil for publisher Atari which was released on the September 26, 2003. It was lauded for the good implementation of the D&D 3.5 system but overall it got mixed reviews due to gameplay bugs and lack of a plot. With a 71% on Metacritic it was the lowest rated Troika game.[4] It sold about 128,000 units.[5]

The other team worked for Activision on Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines. Using an early version of the Source engine, development was finished in October 2004. Due to contractual obligations with Valve Corporation, Activision was not allowed to release the game before Valve released Half-Life 2, scheduled for release in November 2004. Troika Games used the interim period to code a patch into the main program. Bloodlines was released on November 16, 2004 (the same day as Half Life 2). Critics praised Bloodlines' visual, audio and story but warned about a bug-ridden game. It got a rating of 80% on Metacritic,[6] and sold merely 72,000 units.[5]

Ok, I was wrong about ToEE flopping, but right about Arcanum being a success (and Troika not failing due to flops, but lack of a publishing deal). Having said that, I'd be surprised if VtM:B hasn't overtaken ToEE - Bloodlines has had serious legs on its sales, which wouldn't have been factored in at the time that Troika went under.

Mind you, when ToEE was released isometric party-based crpgs were still in vogue. Part of the reason for the poor reception was that people were expecting a game along the lines of BG2 or Arcanum, rather than a dungeon-crawler.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Could anybody tell me in a very detailed way, or point me to a review or analysis, why did Arcanum combat sucked? Why is widely considered a badly implemented combat? Thanks.

Whats with the recent trend of demanding 'objective evidence' of a predominantly subjective issue? Will pointing out reviews really answer anything? Reviewers aren't exactly held as paragons of strategic judgment around these parts. If the question was about popular perceptions, rather than actuality, then reviews might be relevant.

But all I've ever said was I couldn't stand the combat. And when others complain about the combat, by and large that's what they mean. I'm yet to encounter anyone who says 'I hated the combat, but objectively it's really awesome!!!'. Or 'I loved the combat, but objectively it's shite!!!'. What most of us mean by 'combat is crap' is that 'my god I found that combat to be really dull compared to similar TB games', and it just so happens there's a fair few people on the Dex (and it seems 'in general) that had the same experience.

No amount of pseudo-objective argument (I say pseudo because we're talking about a pure entertainment issue - if we were judging artistic merit or strategic difficulty, objective arguments would be more sensible) can change my subjective experience.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Anyway, the reason why Bloodlines was so good was the plot and the dialogue and the voice acting. Bringing those three things together in equal measures of brilliance for a second time would probably spell the end of the universe. Because I can't think of a single development studio alive today that can actually write an original plot and quality dialogue.

Valve or Rockstar. Sadly, both don't give a fuck about RPGs.

 

[J1M]

Since I don't want to wade through the three pages of retard here, forgive me if it's been said already. But, if this arcanum project got approved, they would have made it instead of Bloodlines.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I thought Valve saved Bloodlines from being even more of an unplayable bugfest by forcing them to release the game after Half Life 2.