Review Vault Dweller Does Dragon Age II

[VentilatorOfDoom]

In less welcoming RPGs we had things like damage resistances towards certain types of damage. DR 10/crushing or 20/cold iron etc. I remember that it seemed like a smart move to use certain weapons in certain circumstances.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

HP bloat is a design choice of itself, and I don't see any reason why less random damagedealing calculations would inevitably lead to it.

It's not a choice, it's a direct result of the glancing system. When damage is delivered per second, no matter how small, then you must have enough HP to be able to absorb it long enough to have a chance to win.

But as we have already established, AD&D like systems already have a set amount of HP delivered each second...

Well, on average at least. Given X amounts of blows you can expect Y amount of critical hits, which translate (statistically) into Z amount of dmg/second.

So if this dmg/second had been dealt in the form of glancing blows instead of critical hits, what would change about the boss fights? Nothing.

And yet, in BG2, most bosses - even the ones not immune to crits - had a fairly moderate amount of HPs. So this seems to suggest that HP bloat is not a direct result of this system.

 

[flushfire]

While I also prefer the miss system, I don't really think DA2's fubar combat mechanics are the result of having to be built around a glancing blows system.

Like already said, special attacks are exempted from glancing in DA2. that would be the same as special attacks always hitting in a miss system.

Stats-wise DA2 is just so poorly balanced for more than 2 stats to matter (im thinking it is intentional tho) and that isn't the result of it being built around a glance system. Take for example the aforementioned willpower for warriors: stamina recovery talents are just 1-2 talents deep and are enough to compensate (coupled with pots) for no points in willpower.

As for the bloated HP, it is the result of laziness - i don't think that if DA2 was built around a miss system things would have changed. bioware would still inflate HPs to retarded proportions to "increase" difficulty. that and trying to mimic WoW boss mechanics and failing miserably. Shit how many bosses go invulnerable while spawning mobs in DA2. Even in wow you can still attack bosses no matter what phase they are in.

DA2's combat is the result of shit mechanics taken from other games lazily put together without trying to make it work afterwards. I doubt miss/glance system had anything to do with it.

 

[Lord Rocket]

Yo VD don't you think that the problem with your example is that the glancing blow damage is really high, rather than the system itself (plus, as herostratus points out, miss systems have 'dps' as well. In fact, I went and did some maths, which you can read in this very thread, that demonstrates that there is no significant difference between the two systems when the average damage/round is equivalent)?
It's also probably worth mentioning that really high numbers don't mean anything if shit still dies quickly. I could design a system where everyone has 1,000,000 HP at level one, but where the average attack does, like, 300,000d6, and hey, guess what, the HP 'bloat' becomes meaningless.

 

[Jim Cojones]

And I'll tell you what else. I can hop on the internet and find out for you which weapons are best in just about every single fucking revered classic CRPG. I can probably do it with spell schools or skills too. By your logic, they're all poorly designed.

[...]

Yes, you can imagine a super-detailed system that embraces a third option where different weapons are actually better depending on whether you're fighting in a small room or balancing on a precipice, but seriously what CRPGs do that? Can you name any? And are all the rest poorly designed?

In many fantasy RPGs, including all D&D games, it is better to use blunt weapons against most undead or golems. In D&D games you also sometimes you have to change from the weapon that you are generally more effective with, to something with higher enhancement bonus, because of enemies' resistances. Fans of Gothic can't agree which weapons are better - single-handed (for speed) or double-handed (for reach). Fallout 2 designers probably never cared about any balancing but I've read many arguments about Bozar being better than Gauss rifle and vice versa. Some even claim that Gauss pistol might be better than these two. When playing a sorcerer in Diablo, is it better to use archangel staff (for maximum spell damage) or the Dremflange (for being able to use shield)? Deus Ex has weapons that suit different gameplay styles.

 

[Brother None]

It's worth noting that while Fallout does indeed have one "best" weapon (Turbo Plasma Rifle), that this is mostly due to it being added in a hurry at the last minute by Feargus Urquhart, without proper testing of the implications of having it use one AP less than all other rifles. A fuck-up, basically.

 

[J1M]

If a combat system implements BOTH glancing blows and something else, like dodge, parry, block, etc. There is the potential for additional depth, but ONLY if there are abilities that interact and distinguish between the different types of hits.

No.

You are adding needless complexity, you either hit or you dont ... a "glancing blow" its still a hit and we already have a variable damage model in place for hits.

A glancing blow that does half-damage is the same as a hit that does 12 out of its maximum of 24 damage.

Oh look, you erased part of what I wrote so you wouldn't look like you have a reading disability. Your position is equivalent to: "critical hits don't need to exist because misses do".

Consider perks or talents for things like:
-Next attack after a block does double damage
-Forgo next attack to guarantee next incoming blow is blocked
-Blocks reduce damage by 60% instead of 30% (Passive)
-100% dodge chance for next 4 rounds
-Trip and stun target for 2 rounds (Only usable on a target the round after it has dodged)

Potential depth, if desired.

 

[Roguey]

Diablo 2 Act 2 monsters on Normal: Sand Leaper 32-93, Scarab 40-67, Embalmed 44-99, Tomb Viper 24-39, Serpent Magus 61-100, Mauler 160-200.

Icewind Dale (a game designed for a party of 6) - Yeti 30-33, Yuan-ti Elite 46-52, Zombie 14, Ettin 65-78, Tough Lizzardman 32-34, Neo Orog General 59-70.

Oh hey, regarding this I did some more digging. This is Gothic 2's damage formula (from the World of Gothic forum):

Formula for a critical hit (Melee)
Weapon Damage + Strength - Opponent's Armour with a minimum of 5 damage.

Fomula for a normal hit (Melee)
(Weapon Damage + Strength - Opponent's Armour - 1) /10 with a minimum of 5 damage.

Formula for a normal hit (Ranged)
Weapon Damage + Dexterity - Opponent's Armour with a minimum of 5 damage.

So no matter what, you will always do at least 5 damage (a glance system). And here's G2's monster tables. Starts out in the dozens, goes up to the low-mid hundreds, a few special ones are 1000, the last one has 2000.

Now here's some Dragon Age HP values, which uses the honest-to-goodness miss system:

The bear in Lothering: 1369, Broodmother: 2032 (with each tentacle having 698), high dragon: 4085 Kolgrim (the Reaver fellow): 1240, Gaxkang: 2140, Arl Howe: 1220, Ser Cauthrien: 3415, Archdemon: 4180. Regular enemy values are in the low-mid hundreds.

Seems more like Bioware being Bioware. Or no?

 

[Topher]

There is actually a very similar argument going on over on Youtube right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDTjJTfJgwM

The video creator is basically trying to argue that FF games (7-8-9) have more complex combat systems then western RPG's, specifically Baldurs Gate. Here is his basic stance...

The equations are more complex because of the way things are calculated. There are many more steps involved than in AD&D. Character customization is also superior in every way. Also, status ailments are more important and can function in more complex ways. Those FF games also have Active Time Battle, not rounds. Good game design hides game mechanics which is why you don't notice them unless you dissect the gameplay as a game designer would. Encounter design also tends to be superior

Do you think about what you say before you say it? AD&D was meant for people to play WITHOUT the use of computers. The system is hardly complex. In comparison I dare you to run the algorithms for those FF games without any assistance from a computer game engine. If you think you could then you are insane. FF games are way more complex.

I'd actually be interested to know how the FF games calculate things in combat. Anyway, half the fun is his arrogant ass and totally unsupported approach to everything. Drop by and tell him to fuck off, it's the least we could do.

**Almost forgot...

Yo VD don't you think that the problem with your example is that the glancing blow damage is really high, rather than the system itself (plus, as herostratus points out, miss systems have 'dps' as well. In fact, I went and did some maths, which you can read in this very thread, that demonstrates that there is no significant difference between the two systems when the average damage/round is equivalent)?
It's also probably worth mentioning that really high numbers don't mean anything if shit still dies quickly. I could design a system where everyone has 1,000,000 HP at level one, but where the average attack does, like, 300,000d6, and hey, guess what, the HP 'bloat' becomes meaningless.

HP bloat isn't about the raw HP numbers it's about how those values compare to the damge output values of your character, it's that ratio that matters.

 

[Drakron]

Well jRPGs can have complex systems and FF VIII was a rather complicated one, also one that had some serious flaws but that just shows it was not something simple.

And FF bosses are pretty much working what immunities they have, what weakness and their attack pattern ... some bosses can be difficult as others are easier, same with some of the normal enemies but to a lesser degree.

That was true until IX, I think X was still harsh in some aspects but XII had a lot of "simplification" and XIV is ... FF DA2 (but worst).

Also here is a fun tidbit, you can MISS in many of FF titles if the enemy evasion stat is higher that your attack stats ... some enemies had such high invasion the norm was MISSING and not hitting, like FF VIII Cactuar.

So if you think he is wrong ... he is not but depends on what titles you are comparing, many wRPGs are in fact simple.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

It's worth noting that while Fallout does indeed have one "best" weapon (Turbo Plasma Rifle), that this is mostly due to it being added in a hurry at the last minute by Feargus Urquhart, without proper testing of the implications of having it use one AP less than all other rifles. A fuck-up, basically.

Not to mention giving such a low AP cost to the heaviest rifle in game. If anything, the Hunting Rifle and Assault Rifle should have 4 AP cost.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

Well jRPGs can have complex systems and FF VIII was a rather complicated one, also one that had some serious flaws but that just shows it was not something simple.

And FF bosses are pretty much working what immunities they have, what weakness and their attack pattern ... some bosses can be difficult as others are easier, same with some of the normal enemies but to a lesser degree.

That was true until IX, I think X was still harsh in some aspects but XII had a lot of "simplification" and XIV is ... FF DA2 (but worst).

Also here is a fun tidbit, you can MISS in many of FF titles if the enemy evasion stat is higher that your attack stats ... some enemies had such high invasion the norm was MISSING and not hitting, like FF VIII Cactuar.

So if you think he is wrong ... he is not but depends on what titles you are comparing, many wRPGs are in fact simple.

But still... its blob combat.

Half of what made BG was the ability to use rts on a large battlefield.

 

[Drakron]

But still... its blob combat.

Half of what made BG was the ability to use rts on a large battlefield.

The point was the complexity of the rule system of FF vs BG and not if BG have a large battlefield and so its "better" due to FF using "closed stages" for combat until FF XII.

FF systems can be more complex, I am not saying they win in all fronts (as they certainly do not) but they can be more complex that the standard wRPG and as for blob combat ... serious? allowing the AI in a BioWare game to do its own thing is asking for trouble (Err ... how about HEALING MY NEARLY DEAD HAWKE Anders?) and even if can usually let fighters do their own thing I rather control my Spellcasters to prevent AI idiocy (STOP DROPPING FIREBALLS AT MISC FEET AERIE!!!) that tends to turn into me having to reload my last saved game.

It seems you dont really have a point, the fact is jRPGs can be complex and wRPGs "liteness" have often been the rule rather the exception ... not that matters anyway since the is global, jRPGs, despite what BioWare says, are not stagnated and been going closer to the STREAMLINING of BioWare (that apparently is the new Square, except being owned by EA and not as good at Square at cinematographic).

 

[Mangoose]

Well jRPGs can have complex systems and FF VIII was a rather complicated one, also one that had some serious flaws but that just shows it was not something simple.

And FF bosses are pretty much working what immunities they have, what weakness and their attack pattern ... some bosses can be difficult as others are easier, same with some of the normal enemies but to a lesser degree.

That was true until IX, I think X was still harsh in some aspects but XII had a lot of "simplification" and XIV is ... FF DA2 (but worst).

Also here is a fun tidbit, you can MISS in many of FF titles if the enemy evasion stat is higher that your attack stats ... some enemies had such high invasion the norm was MISSING and not hitting, like FF VIII Cactuar.

So if you think he is wrong ... he is not but depends on what titles you are comparing, many wRPGs are in fact simple.

But still... its blob combat.

Half of what made BG was the ability to use rts on a large battlefield.

*Blob combat with very little emphasis on front/back positioning, too. Need to point that out since the Western blobs do have a strongly delineated front and back line.

 

[J1M]

There is actually a very similar argument going on over on Youtube right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDTjJTfJgwM

The video creator is basically trying to argue that FF games (7-8-9) have more complex combat systems then western RPG's, specifically Baldurs Gate.

Only watched the first part so far. The anger at the start was pretty funny. Obviously he's just a consoletard with a video editing program, but really what brain chemistry imbalance leads to this:

-He says that Dragon Quest has combat innovation because Ultima 3 had tactical party combat. Apparently forgetting about Wizardry and Ultima 1 merely seconds after talking about them.
-Apparently putting a word in a menu list (so you don't have to bundle your game with a peripheral) instead of having it typed out is enough to establish a new genre. Ditto for lazily reusing the world map perspective in a dungeon and eliminating the maze-like nature of dank holes.

I'll watch the rest later because seeing someone go 1+1=3 is always fascinating.

 

[J1M]

Well jRPGs can have complex systems and FF VIII was a rather complicated one, also one that had some serious flaws but that just shows it was not something simple.

And FF bosses are pretty much working what immunities they have, what weakness and their attack pattern ... some bosses can be difficult as others are easier, same with some of the normal enemies but to a lesser degree.

That was true until IX, I think X was still harsh in some aspects but XII had a lot of "simplification" and XIV is ... FF DA2 (but worst).

Also here is a fun tidbit, you can MISS in many of FF titles if the enemy evasion stat is higher that your attack stats ... some enemies had such high invasion the norm was MISSING and not hitting, like FF VIII Cactuar.

So if you think he is wrong ... he is not but depends on what titles you are comparing, many wRPGs are in fact simple.

But still... its blob combat.

Half of what made BG was the ability to use rts on a large battlefield.

*Blob combat with very little emphasis on front/back positioning, too. Need to point that out since the Western blobs do have a strongly delineated front and back line.

Same with most of the Final Fantasy games. Its been a while but I seem to remember even in FF1 the last character in your group is targeted less.

 

[Mangoose]

Well jRPGs can have complex systems and FF VIII was a rather complicated one, also one that had some serious flaws but that just shows it was not something simple.

And FF bosses are pretty much working what immunities they have, what weakness and their attack pattern ... some bosses can be difficult as others are easier, same with some of the normal enemies but to a lesser degree.

That was true until IX, I think X was still harsh in some aspects but XII had a lot of "simplification" and XIV is ... FF DA2 (but worst).

Also here is a fun tidbit, you can MISS in many of FF titles if the enemy evasion stat is higher that your attack stats ... some enemies had such high invasion the norm was MISSING and not hitting, like FF VIII Cactuar.

So if you think he is wrong ... he is not but depends on what titles you are comparing, many wRPGs are in fact simple.

But still... its blob combat.

Half of what made BG was the ability to use rts on a large battlefield.

*Blob combat with very little emphasis on front/back positioning, too. Need to point that out since the Western blobs do have a strongly delineated front and back line.

Same with most of the Final Fantasy games. Its been a while but I seem to remember even in FF1 the last character in your group is targeted less.

I said strongly delineated. Not just herp derp you do 25% less damage you take 25% less damage. I said Wizardry style as in if you are in the back line, you CANNOT attack at all unless you have a long-ranged or -reaching weapon. As in you can't hit the enemies back line AT ALL with a regular-ranged melee weapon.

 

[J1M]

I said strongly delineated. Not just herp derp you do 25% less damage you take 25% less damage. I said Wizardry style as in if you are in the back line, you CANNOT attack at all unless you have a long-ranged or -reaching weapon. As in you can't hit the enemies back line AT ALL with a regular-ranged melee weapon.

Yes, that's another good point about how JRPGs just take systems designed in the west and imitate/simplify them.

 

[Kz3r0]

Well jRPGs can have complex systems and FF VIII was a rather complicated one, also one that had some serious flaws but that just shows it was not something simple.

And FF bosses are pretty much working what immunities they have, what weakness and their attack pattern ... some bosses can be difficult as others are easier, same with some of the normal enemies but to a lesser degree.

That was true until IX, I think X was still harsh in some aspects but XII had a lot of "simplification" and XIV is ... FF DA2 (but worst).

Final Fantasy are difficult only if you go for the optional bosses, otherwise are a fucking grindfest with no strategy at all.
And I really hope that you are not saying that FF X was complex in any way or harsh.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Diablo 2 Act 2 monsters on Normal: Sand Leaper 32-93, Scarab 40-67, Embalmed 44-99, Tomb Viper 24-39, Serpent Magus 61-100, Mauler 160-200.

Icewind Dale (a game designed for a party of 6) - Yeti 30-33, Yuan-ti Elite 46-52, Zombie 14, Ettin 65-78, Tough Lizzardman 32-34, Neo Orog General 59-70.

Oh hey, regarding this I did some more digging. This is Gothic 2's damage formula (from the World of Gothic forum):

Formula for a critical hit (Melee)
Weapon Damage + Strength - Opponent's Armour with a minimum of 5 damage.

Fomula for a normal hit (Melee)
(Weapon Damage + Strength - Opponent's Armour - 1) /10 with a minimum of 5 damage.

Formula for a normal hit (Ranged)
Weapon Damage + Dexterity - Opponent's Armour with a minimum of 5 damage.

So no matter what, you will always do at least 5 damage (a glance system). And here's G2's monster tables. Starts out in the dozens, goes up to the low-mid hundreds, a few special ones are 1000, the last one has 2000.

Now here's some Dragon Age HP values, which uses the honest-to-goodness miss system:

The bear in Lothering: 1369, Broodmother: 2032 (with each tentacle having 698), high dragon: 4085 Kolgrim (the Reaver fellow): 1240, Gaxkang: 2140, Arl Howe: 1220, Ser Cauthrien: 3415, Archdemon: 4180. Regular enemy values are in the low-mid hundreds.

Seems more like Bioware being Bioware. Or no?

Well DA2 bosses have probably way more than that. But it's true, bloated HP "challenge" is not a direct result of a glancing system. It's lazy design. It's easier and quicker to give the boss 20000 HP and and army of spawning-out-of-nowhere minions than to do something creative. Or maybe the true reason are the lame, streamlined, welcoming character systems and spell systems. What should they do to provide a challenging bossfight in DA2?

 

[Elwro]

Oh hey, regarding this I did some more digging. This is Gothic 2's damage formula (from the World of Gothic forum):

Fomula for a normal hit (Melee)
(Weapon Damage + Strength - Opponent's Armour - 1) /10 with a minimum of 5 damage.

So no matter what, you will always do at least 5 damage (a glance system).

... if you manage to hit the target, and it's quite possible that you will miss. I don't see how that's a "glance" system.

 

[Lord Rocket]

**Almost forgot...

Yo VD don't you think that the problem with your example is that the glancing blow damage is really high, rather than the system itself (plus, as herostratus points out, miss systems have 'dps' as well. In fact, I went and did some maths, which you can read in this very thread, that demonstrates that there is no significant difference between the two systems when the average damage/round is equivalent)?
It's also probably worth mentioning that really high numbers don't mean anything if shit still dies quickly. I could design a system where everyone has 1,000,000 HP at level one, but where the average attack does, like, 300,000d6, and hey, guess what, the HP 'bloat' becomes meaningless.

HP bloat isn't about the raw HP numbers it's about how those values compare to the damge output values of your character, it's that ratio that matters.

I know, right, that was totally my point. In fact I said precisely that in the text block you quoted. VD said that under a glance system, if you want an enemy to survive X amount of time against a party that does Y damage, then they need to have X*Y=Z HP, and since Z is probably a really high number, then that's HP 'bloat'. So I pointed out that just having a really high number doesn't mean anything.

 

[Roguey]

... if you manage to hit the target, and it's quite possible that you will miss. I don't see how that's a "glance" system.

Only if you mess up your timing and/or the opponent's AI decides to dodge/block/parry. That's quite different from a system where you swing the sword and some virtual dice roll in the background to determine whether or not the hit was successful.

 

[Drakron]

Final Fantasy are difficult only if you go for the optional bosses, otherwise are a fucking grindfest with no strategy at all.
And I really hope that you are not saying that FF X was complex in any way or harsh.

Seymore Flux on the mountain path.

He had a fucking annoying attack combo that was a TPK, he was pretty much the only boss I had problem with (I knew the trick to beat Yunalesca) and I dont recall doing much of the optional bosses, I think I did some of the Dark Aeons.

Also no strategy? Spherimorph despite not being a particular difficult boss required the player to know what the fuck he was doing since he was resistant to physical attacks and changes his element alignment after you hit him with a spell he is weak to so the correct strategy was not spawn the most powerful attack but wait for him to attack, use the opposite element attack and then cast protect ... not overall hard but still NOT something you can pass without having to pay attention.

 

[RG_Trollface]

It is not a “hit/miss” system that result in hp bloat, but same dumbing down and laziness.

In BG2 or IWD mob survival mostly depended on spells and abilities with a lot of protections and ways to counter them.
What kind of special protections or abilities are used by DA2 mobs?
Most of DA2 opponents are hardly special in any way, with bloated HP as their only means of survival.
It is simple, just as reusing same maps all over.