SerratedBiz
Arcane
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2009
- Messages
- 4,143
cool we havent had one of these for a while
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Game News Video Games And Male Gaze
- Thread starter Jaesun
- Start date
Mozgoëbstvo
Learned
Spot on. Your whole post quite is. But there's a little problem: mainstream media, and even the non mainstream ones, are filled (even subtly) with this bullshit of one half of mankind exploiting the other. Instead of imputing, rightly so, the quota of assholeness evenly around mankind, some people stir shit up by making up a gender war that exists only in their minds.
Those little misandric signals are everywhere. I didn't see them once, but now that I saw them, I can't unsee them.
Mozgoëbstvo
Learned
While this is true, it is also true that when they wear certain outfits, they are taking the obvious risk of being ogled by a few hot guys they'd be shagged by happily, and a lot more average (or less) men.
But you know some people want to introduce "visual rape" laws? You ogle too much, it's rape. Obviously, it only applies to women being ogled and the discretion of having been "visually raped" would be theirs.
"Oh, that spaz stared at me. RAAAEEEEPPP!"
"No, officer, the hot guy from the gym didn't eyerape me."
Protip: If you're annoyed by shit media, stop following it.
Azrael the cat
Arcane
It's been a loooonggg time since I did net creative stuff, and my very very meagre art skills (a flow-on from real life: I've been playing with art programs ever since I was 5 screwing around with the early paint programs and simple DOS graphical programming on the Apple IIe/C64, but I'm the only person I've ever known who is so godawful at art that I failed grade 8 art (i.e. 12-13 yrs old, when it was compulsory) without missing an assignment. Normally that is considered literally impossible - to my knowledge (I'm friends with guys/girls whose parents are still senior teachers at my old school), I'm still the only one to fail grade 8 art in the school's history
.Amazingly, I'm equally inept at computer art - anything more than basic figures and you can forget it.
What I did do for a while - better than now, as since I've focused on philosophy I've completely lost my ability to actually write creatively, is write pieces - sometimes attempts at humour, sometimes just poems/short stories, trying to avoid weirdness for weirdness' sake (but the medium sort of encourages it despite yourself). I used to participate in the old alt.poetry newsgroup - as those around during the reign of slow modems and newsgroups would remember, there was always shitty fanfic stuff, but the creative groups were always based on the idea that you were submitting stuff to be criticised rather than blindly praised, and there was a better ratio of good advice to shitty fanfic than modern net-writing sites. I continued for a while after that, adding my shitty graphics once internet speeds made that possible, but moved away from the net writing community after the newsgroups died, as the fanfic-mentality (I don't just mean fanfics here - I mean the mentality of putting something on the web because you want to be praised, rather than because you want people to rip it to shreds so you can learn and improve).
I've come across stuff I did 10+ years ago occasionally, but I've got no idea whether it would be the same material you're talking about. I always used the '...the Cat' addition to emphasise that (a) it's a fun smurfs reference rather than an emo angel-of-death reference (Azrael rocks in those cartoons - as a kid I always thought that if Azrael was given free reign to run the offence for an episode or two, the smurfs would all be cat food
). But there's a ton of Azrael usernames on the web, due to the whole 'angel-of-death' thing, and a fair few fellow 'Azrael the Cat's going round as well, so I really wouldn't have a clue. In any event, if it was me, it was a long long time ago.
Azrael the cat
Arcane
They've both had a hefty run in very non-sex-symbol roles before doing Dr Who. Even Matt Smith, being rather young, played the 'nice-guy-sap / idealist-sympathic' character for years in 'Party Animals', the UK drama series about young political staffers competing for pre-selection. In that, he's the guy with all the genuine ideals both at a personal and a political level, but who you know is going to be no more effective as an MP than he is at getting a girl, as he's as far removed from the 'charismatic sexy doctor' character as you could get.
I agree that di Caprio is still hampered by his face - you can tell he works hard, chooses his roles well, and is more interested in acting than being a celebrity, but yeah - he's seriously hampered by it. But if he hadn't tried to do tougher roles, he'd have been forgotten about years ago.
Hell, take Cillian Murphy - similar pretty-boy look with a fucking terrific run of films: 28 days later, Batman Begins, Sunshine (neat film if you want to see future Captain America Chris Evans dominate a really well-talented ensemble - you can see why the studios decided that Evans was destined for bigger things), Cold Mountain. Batman Begins actually uses his pretty-boy-face really well, with the switch from harmless doctor to '...have you seen my mask?'. But again, nobody wants to see that shit in an older actor - at least not as a sex symbol. Not saying the guy is finished - he was entirely competent in Inception in a supporting role. But older leads need to look like men - just like older female sex symbols need curves and the ability to dominate a scene rather than just look pretty in it.
hiver
Guest
That comes from the fact that most of the entertainment industry and its different media is run by men... out of which considerable numbers are shallow assholes so they perpetuate their personal preferences and opinions.
If there was more women in the executive, producer and other leading positions, you sure as hell would see more guys without their shirts off for no reason at all and much more men butts.
Of course you do see a lot of it now too, since the media recognized there are women out there who can be customers - provided they get the content that would please them.
I mean, look at how most of the popular male actors look. Look at boy bands of any sort, - they are not much then singing strippers.
Especially on concerts.
And then again, there is the whole gay (hollywood and other) angle to it, which behaves in the exact same way.
Men can blather about cheap womens and shit in media while at the same time being totally oblivious that its practically impossible for men to make a career in entertainment industry if youre not good looking and willing to show it - all due respect given to individual rare examples of both sexes that managed to get there without being sexual objects.
misandric - as "hate of men"?
I wouldnt think so. I think the issue is equalizing and men are treated as sexualized objects more and more in the media and entertainment industry.
Mozgoëbstvo
Learned
There might be a lot of man-writers out there, but if you begin to watch closely (at least here in Italy where I live, or, from what I've seen, also in America), these women in important positions in media (TV hosts, anchors, columnists) are everywhere, despite protestations to the contrary, and they often give an imbalanced view about gender issues, applying double standards everywhere... Lord Belial and Baal-zabub know how I'd be happy in a society where men are men and women are women without a fuss being made about it, but... I tell you, it's subtle, but the axis of power IS shifting. More so in the progressive "west", which exploits the contrast with patriarchal muslim societies to become more and more feminized.
I tell you, I could define myself as an aggressively hardlining ultraprogressive communist, if I had to politically define myself (which is a thing I can't really do without excluding parts of my ideas), but some of the things certain women are slowly trying to make institutional in the west are really horrors towards equality and sane common living.
You're mighty intelligent, hiver (may I just call you Ajvar? Love the pun), so briefly look into the matter. Google "antifeminism" or something similar, inform yourself with plainly available info, then look again at the environment around you and tell me if you don't notice things you didn't notice before.
I tell you, there's real misandry out there, and the greatest ally of its spreading are happy-go-lucky men who just shake their heads to these admittedly ridiculous topics. Yes, they are ridiculous, they shouldn't even exist, but they're there.
Sorry to bother you, but as I told you, I really believe you're quite intelligent and you shouldn't let certain matters slide (even if you may have a lot of extremely pressing concerns in life. I don't know about it).
Sorry again. I believe I'll end my ranting for today, unless someone explicitly expresses the will to hear me rant more, which I highly doubt. :D
hiver
Guest
nah, its alright.
What you see is the consequence of misogyny surfacing and spreading from human race as a whole - that is a bit stupid as a whole.
Males have been basically and generally horrible towards females for last few thousand years, especially in the "west" though its a global issue as we all know. (and lasting much longer but lets just shorten the scope here)
This has been supported by differences in physical strength which gave males power and control over military, "police" and therefore judiciary systems over all of socio-political systems humans have designed and used through recent history.
Women have been generally oppressed and abused. And now we see the consequences when advances in technology are breaking down those barriers.
Since it is a reaction coming from a mass of individuals and every bigger mass of people is constituted of largely stupid assholes... well... there you have it.
Its almost the same as the issue of black people in US turning into racists themselves as a reaction to racism they were subjected to in the past.
However, the issue is luckily not so clear cut and simple and the reactions vary from individual to individual.
Also, every bigger group of people does have individuals who are intelligent, aware and wise enough to understand that reacting in the same way and basically just returning the same abuse back is very, very stupid thing to do.... for multitudes of very real reasons i will skip over since i dont feel like writing a hundred pages about it.
I mean... its pretty self evident stuff.
Also, seeing this backlash consequence as misandry strongly and vividly elucidates the feminists reactions to treatment of women.
-edit-
i think im just reasonably intelligent really.
Intelligence without wisdom is a very useless thing though...
What you see is the consequence of misogyny surfacing and spreading from human race as a whole - that is a bit stupid as a whole.
Males have been basically and generally horrible towards females for last few thousand years, especially in the "west" though its a global issue as we all know. (and lasting much longer but lets just shorten the scope here)
This has been supported by differences in physical strength which gave males power and control over military, "police" and therefore judiciary systems over all of socio-political systems humans have designed and used through recent history.
Women have been generally oppressed and abused. And now we see the consequences when advances in technology are breaking down those barriers.
Since it is a reaction coming from a mass of individuals and every bigger mass of people is constituted of largely stupid assholes... well... there you have it.
Its almost the same as the issue of black people in US turning into racists themselves as a reaction to racism they were subjected to in the past.
However, the issue is luckily not so clear cut and simple and the reactions vary from individual to individual.
Also, every bigger group of people does have individuals who are intelligent, aware and wise enough to understand that reacting in the same way and basically just returning the same abuse back is very, very stupid thing to do.... for multitudes of very real reasons i will skip over since i dont feel like writing a hundred pages about it.
I mean... its pretty self evident stuff.
Also, seeing this backlash consequence as misandry strongly and vividly elucidates the feminists reactions to treatment of women.
-edit-
i think im just reasonably intelligent really.
Intelligence without wisdom is a very useless thing though...
Menckenstein
Lunacy of Caen: Todd Reaver
Too many stupid motherfuckers like the author quoted in the OP afraid of their own penises and vaginas. Fuck off of my planet and asphyxiate somewhere cold and lonely where your stupidity can't reach us.
We are sexual and violent creatures, we like sex, we like violence, we are drawn to it (unless defective, that's another issue) and those who are upset about the sexualization of imaginary characters in a violent entertainment product are the most nit-picky whiny pieces of lowlife shit on the planet. Go feed the fucking homeless.
We are sexual and violent creatures, we like sex, we like violence, we are drawn to it (unless defective, that's another issue) and those who are upset about the sexualization of imaginary characters in a violent entertainment product are the most nit-picky whiny pieces of lowlife shit on the planet. Go feed the fucking homeless.
Mozgoëbstvo
Learned
Bingo! You could cut the "almost". The only difference between the two matters is that you can still see a large number of "ghettoized" black people that haven't quite been integrated with the excuse of exploiting affirmative action; women, on the other hand, are taking FULL advantage of the reparations, as I said, with "pink quotas" being instituted everywhere.
****WARNING: Croc, you can stop reading if you want. This post is more generalized and not directly addressed to you****
But, yeah, I'm aware that the problems of humanity are manifold and usually, if there's a serious war, it's those of the ruling elites between the masses, all over the world.
And those ruling elites use hundreds of tricks to divide people and make them believe that the differences are along OTHER lines (religious, cultural, sexual).
Sure, those elites are not all cunning as foxes, and repeating an ideal, they usually believe it themselves, in a small measure (an American WASP enterpreneur might really feel culturally superior to a Nigerian enterpreneur, and feel a solidarity with American "white trash" of his own "culture"), but those are exceptions, and the elites usually cooperate internationally (with the excuse of stability) to shield their interests, and small, independent elites are squashed by the monopoly (riling up the masses against them by throwing various ad hominem attacks).
So we have laughable situations in which, let's say, two African dictatorships violating human rights exists. Let's say one is aligned against, one is aligned with, the USA.
The USA gets up in arms against inconceivable violations in country A, a war or an embargo (which will make the very same suffering civilians suffer more) is declared, regime A falls.
Regime B remains untouched. Some USA activists say "hey! Regime B does the same shit as regime A! Why don't you invade them?".
The government acknowledges regime B's violations and issues "stern warnings" to appease activists, but nothing more is made.
Unless regime B says "Yo, USA, it's been nice, but I'm out". In this case only will regime B get what regime A got.
And so on. The cases are infinite, the situations, the problems, the awful stuff. I know the world is a multi-faceted thing but humans all over fall to the same mental fallacies that make them rally or cower because of irrational mental mechanisms. People are flawed to the root, among the masses, among the elites, in Europe, in Africa, men, women, city folk, country folk, intellectuals, drooling yokels, they all share the fundamental problems that comes with the "humanity" package.
The reason for which I got inflamed at this article, is simply because in my (debatable) opinion this particular issue (men are still on top, patriarchal, privileged, etc) is the most contrived, slanderous, and yet the most accepted all over the place. It's one of the weakest narrations of the third millennium, yet it's almost universally accepted by men and women all over, causing an unnecessary wave of "collective guilt", which is an awful phenomenon (or, in this case, Femomenon? Rotlfmaokthanxbai) because no person should be allowed to feel guilt or be accused for something said person hasn't done (but, for the accusers, the ancestors of such person are guilty, so the person is guilty by reflex).
Let's make a specific example. Videogames may contain a lot of chainmail bikini, which is fucking annoying, but how many TV series depict, on the contrary, an unrealistically high number of extremely competent women in every field? I sure as hell see a lot more female doctors, engineers, soldiers in TV than in real life, and often the few real life examples don't shine as much.
To summarize, actions should speak for themselves. Bad actions should be condemned, good actions praised, with no extra condemnation because "a man did it" and no more extra praise because "a woman did it".
If a woman in chainmail bikini (which, I repeat, annoys the living crap outta me) is badly written, shallow and uninteresting I won't like her more because she shows cleavage. The game's awful writing won't be redeemed in my eyes. Matter of fact, she may annoy me even more.
If a woman in chainmail bikini is well written, I'll be annoyed at her visual presentation, but I'll say "at least she's well written" and I'll try to gloss over the annoyance of the pandering.
But conversely, if a woman writer depicts men as a homer-simpsonish idiot, emotionally immature, and makes a "strong woman" character fix his mess and belittle him with snarks, I'll sure as hell be annoyed (while some male may "fap to that", because said scenario makes his dick hard). Because women being masculine is depicted as true equality...
Even worse if such a thing is written by a "women's friend" type of man.
An example of men-women relationships done with varying efficacy and shifting all over the chart I presented in terms of quality?
Everything by Joss Whedon, ever. His things are extremely divisive precisely because he does an extreme pastiche of gender roles, sometimes falling into the pit of incredibly fragile men and weaksauce action girls that turn into damsels in distress, but sometimes reaching a golden equilibrium. That man goes from brilliance to cringeworthy and back with uncanny frequency.
I myself am extremely divided when it comes to Buffy, Firefly anf Dollhouse.
Another example, but this time decidedly falling into the bad side of the spectrum?
The obvious suspect, Bioware. Let's skip the fact that, from a purely design perspective, I despise their awful skimping of gameplay to write fantasy and sci-fi flavoured soap operas.
And yes, that MUST be clarified: in my eyes Bioware isn't guilty of having lots of romance and dialogue, or , as it's been codeworded, "emotional engagement". I'm mad at them because to do all that they design SHIT gameplay. If their romance and drama went along with complex, engrossing gameplay, I'd be all ecstatic and shit.
But let's get precisely to that. They do barebones, gameplay, because an AAA title can't have wealth of cutscenes AND branching, complex quests at the same time.
Ok. So they concentrate on romance and story. What is my pickle (and the pickle of many other codexians, I believe)?
THAT THE PASTICHE OF SEX AND CHEESY WORDS AND SEXUAL FANTASIES AND MODERN SEXUAL THEMES IS UNIVERSALLY LAUDED AS BEING MATURE, COMPLEX AND REALISTIC, WHILE IT'S AS EVERY BIT AS PANDERING AS THE CHAINMAIL BIKINI, EVEN IF IT'S OFTEN LESS OVERT.
The choices you get are between a "girl next door", for the nurturing, caring male (Merrill), even if she may have a "dark past" (Leliana), an apparently independent bitchy, sexy type (Miranda, Morrigan) that really has a vulnerable side... the men may be brutes, CK models, or even aliens, but if it's not a Krogan or dwarf (too "nonhuman"), it's all reduced to eyecandy with emotional scars to heal.
It's all transparent, stereotyped fantasies, even if some may have better or worse writing. The more realistic or unassuming characters, the ones who don't have an "awesome story" that fits your sexual template, are delegated to other roles. Mordin, who isn't sexually viable, is troubled as a scientist. But he doesn't have other emotional concerns. (Oh, GOD, I DID THE GENOPAGE! And little else).
And even the "realistic" (by a feminist viewpoint) or supposedly so women have several unrealisms to them. For example, even if they're adept warriors, or if they're a bit on with their age, or if they don heavy armour... they are ALL short, cute waifus with a scientifically appealing waist-to-hip ratio, perky breasts and beautiful buttocks, EVEN IF THOSE CHARACTERISTICS would tone down in any women who do very intense physical activity. Take out the hair and two strategically placed wrinkles, the young and sexually liberal Kelly Chambers has the same body as doctor Chakwas... fucksakes...
And this, in short, leads to a point: those women who claim to want a "realistic" depictions of women don't really want so. They want a "realistic woman" to include all th package. She is humorous, intelligent, witty, sexy, absolutely feminine and independent. All together. The bioware gaming woman wants to be an unrealistic wonder woman who's as beautiful as she's adept as everything. "Realistic" women are not realistic, they are inevitably Mary Sues.
You think a woman will tone it down and ask for a more consistent number of abusive mothers, venomous wives, hookers, women beggars (i.e. a complete and all.encompassing social depictions of women)?
HELL naw. It's ok if there are men heroes, men manchildren, menbeggars and manrapists, but women are either just either victims or heroes.
What about a female villain? Don't worry, she'll have such an awful backstory (an implicit excuse for her crimes) and she'll be so sexy you'll want not only to forgive her, but you'll want to confort and redeem her (with your highly fetishized sexual love).
Oh, fuck. How much have I written... really gotta stop...
hiver
Guest
back to the basement shitstain. now.
Mozgoëbstvo
Learned
Menckenstein
Lunacy of Caen: Todd Reaver
Listen you Serb lapdog, window licking retard, shut the fuck up, go back to your corner and play with your shit-filled diaper.
Does your minder know you're online without supervision?
hiver
Guest
Im not stopping shitstain from "expressing himself". Im answering shitstain "expressions" in appropriate manner.
-edit- as you can see. little shitstain is running on a very basic loop which infact makes him a complete dumbfucking retard thats very fond of projections about playing with dirty diapers...
As for your wall of text post above mozgoebstvo... - well, yeah.
Thats why i said it is very important to be aware that there are individuals that dont adhere to that type of blind mass reaction.
Otherwise it is very easy to slip into painting all women in the same light and then blindly reacting to the perceived "unfairness" of it all with the same sort of bullshit we have been using for a long time now.
-edit- as you can see. little shitstain is running on a very basic loop which infact makes him a complete dumbfucking retard thats very fond of projections about playing with dirty diapers...
As for your wall of text post above mozgoebstvo... - well, yeah.
Thats why i said it is very important to be aware that there are individuals that dont adhere to that type of blind mass reaction.
Otherwise it is very easy to slip into painting all women in the same light and then blindly reacting to the perceived "unfairness" of it all with the same sort of bullshit we have been using for a long time now.
Mozgoëbstvo
Learned
Indeed. Let an individual actions speak, and nothing else!
'Til mankind be redeemed through cooperation.
Btw, I'm never sure I followed any exchange before... what's the beef with you and Menckenstein?
Is it preexisting, or are you two just amicably trolling each other?
hiver
Guest
nah, its just his ego parasite got upset so it goes around following me, posting retard projections of himself that he thinks are explaining "what im really like", trying to re-translate what im really thinking and other such stupid stuff, in hopes he will upset me in some way... so that it could feed on it.
pathetic really...
pathetic really...
circ
Arcane
What the fuck hiver.
Sukeban Cho
Erudite
Of course I am pathetic. I am probably more pathetic and sad than you can begin to imagine.
I did still ask you to keep that shit to PMs, though.
I don't mind if you want to use me as an excuse to tell your internet BROs how much more badass than them you are. You probably are, and several orders of magnitude more badass than me as well. Just drop the attitude when you are making a circus of your "helping hand" or whatever that shit about telling me the obvious was suposed to be.
Kz3r0
Arcane
- Joined
- May 28, 2008
- Messages
- 27,026
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