People News Warren Spector joins OtherSide Entertainment full-time to lead System Shock 3 development

[you know what time it is]

This is going to end well.

 

[Jaesun]

This is the man who thinks Invisible War was better than the original Deus Ex.

I don't believe he ever stated as much. He is well aware IW was much more DECLINE than the original DX (in scope and focus).

 

[Lady_Error]

It's very good that all the ancient glories of RPG are getting back into gaming. The kickstarters of Chris Roberts, Tim Schaffer, the Coles and Richard Garriott have showed tremendous results. We merely needed Spector to complete that glorious list of achievements.

Who's left ?

David motherfuckin' Bradley. Though I doubt he would achieve anything worthwhile now - Kickstarter or not.

 

[an Administrator]

I'm excited
System Shock will be incline.

 

[thesheeep]

Hmmm... carefully optimistic.

 

[Andhaira]

It's very good that all the ancient glories of RPG are getting back into gaming. The kickstarters of Chris Roberts, Tim Schaffer, the Coles and Richard Garriott have showed tremendous results. We merely needed Spector to complete that glorious list of achievements.

Who's left ?

David motherfuckin' Bradley. Though I doubt he would achieve anything worthwhile now - Kickstarter or not.

I don't know; Wizards & Warriors is a very underappreciated gem. Everyone had moved onto multiplayer; fps's and consoles and 3D gaming so the game didn't get the promotion or the chance it deserved. I think what turned many off was the still portraits of the towns, which as we now know have come back into style. Bradely is someone I would really like coming back, and would even support his kickstarter (at lowest possible tier)

 

[Lady_Error]

David motherfuckin' Bradley. Though I doubt he would achieve anything worthwhile now - Kickstarter or not.

I don't know; Wizards & Warriors is a very underappreciated gem. Everyone had moved onto multiplayer; fps's and consoles and 3D gaming so the game didn't get the promotion or the chance it deserved. I think what turned many off was the still portraits of the towns, which as we now know have come back into style. Bradely is someone I would really like coming back, and would even support his kickstarter (at lowest possible tier)

He's been working on Dungeon Lords for how many years now? It's like a Cleve Blakemore syndrome, except he keeps releasing new versions of that game.

 

[Junmarko]

Hopefully he still applies "Warren Spector's Commandments of Game Design".

1. Always Show the Goal - Players should see their next goal (or encounter an intriguing mystery) before they can achieve (or explain) it.
   
2. Problems not Puzzles - It's an obstacle course, not a jigsaw puzzle. Game situations should make logical sense and solutions should never depend on reading the designer's mind.
   
3. Multiple solutions - There should always be more than one way to get past a game obstacle. Always. Whether preplanned (weak!), or natural, growing out of the interaction of player abilities and simulation (better!) never say the words, “This is where the player does X” about a mission or situation within a mission.
   
4. No Forced Failure - Failure isn't fun. Getting knocked unconscious and waking up in a strange place or finding yourself standing over dead bodies while holding a smoking gun can be cool story elements, but situations the player has no chance to react to are bad. Use forced failure sparingly, to drive the story forward but don't overuse this technique!
   
5. It's the Characters, Stupid - Roleplaying is about interacting with other characters in a variety of ways (not just combat… not just conversation…). The choice of interaction style should always be the player's, not the designer's.
   
6. Players Do; NPCs Watch - It's no fun to watch an NPC do something cool. If it's a cool thing, let the player do it. If it's a boring or mundane thing, don't even let the player think about it - let an NPC do it.
   
7. Games Get Harder, Players Get Smarter - Make sure game difficulty escalates as players become more accustomed to the interface and more familiar with the game world. Make sure player rewards make players more powerful as the game goes on and becomes more difficult. Never throw players into a situation their skills and smarts make frustratingly difficult to overcome.
   
8. Pat Your Player on the Back - Random rewards drive players onward. Make sure you reward players regularly and frequently, but unpredictably. And make sure the rewards get more impressive as the game goes on and challenges become more difficult.
   
9. Think 3D - An effective 3D level cannot be laid out on graph paper. Paper maps may be a good starting point (though even that's under limited circumstances). A 3D game map must take into account things over the player's head and under the player's feet. If there's no need to look up and down - constantly - make a 2D game!
   
10. Think Interconnected - Maps in a 3D game world feature massive interconnectivity. Tunnels that go direct from Point A to Point B are bad; loops (horizontal and vertical) and areas with multiple entrance and exit points are good.

Hehe - I think this is great news though, I'm happy he's returning to what he was best at. After the long break he's had, I'm sure he'll be a great asset for Otherside.

 

[shadow9d9]

I don't get the excitement for FPSs on this site.

I love multiplayer FPSs and rpgs. These games(Underworld too) are neither.

 

[Slimu]

I don't get the excitement for FPSs on this site.

I love multiplayer FPSs and rpgs. These games(Underworld too) are neither.

System Shock 2 can be considered an RPG, even if it uses a first person perspective. Even the Codex included it in the greatest RPG lists.

 

[Aenra]

I love ... rpgs. These games (Underworld too) are neither.

 

[shadow9d9]

I don't get the excitement for FPSs on this site.

I love multiplayer FPSs and rpgs. These games(Underworld too) are neither.

System Shock 2 can be considered an RPG, even if it uses a first person perspective. Even the Codex included it in the greatest RPG lists.

Anything could be stretched to be considered different genres. RPGCodex is still just a group of opinions. That doesn't make it the one truth.

First person shooters are never rpgs to me, including the bethesda games. I just don't understand the fascination with first person shooters, even here. It is disappointing.

Don't get me wrong. I love a good team based FPS. I'm in the top 3% of the world when it comes to BF4, with an insane KD... But a single player FPS masquerading as an rpg just makes no sense to me. I'll never understand the fascination with underworld, which is just a FPS set in a dungeon.

They could be considered hybrids at best, and tbh, there are match 3 games that could be considered hybrid rpgs...

 

[cherry blossom]

Even after 13 years, the rotten taste of IW still hasn't washed away and now Spector is gonna be in mah SS3?

One word: CONSOLES!

 

[Invictus]

Grotesque
I dont get whats is so bad about the video; he commented on how the starter area had maybe too many options to start off without having a tutorial to explain those systems, too many enemy soldiers to start the first mission and maybe too many gamey stuff like all the gas traps
He makes some good points I guess, I never felt lost in Deus Ex but some systems were never properly explained and hell even System Shock 2 had a pretty good tutorial to get you familiarized with its systems.
He seems to be just what it is on the video, a 50 something guy watching a game he hasnt probably palyed himself in more than a decade and the points he makes are mostly to make the game a bit clearer and more straightforward to start off instead of experimenting with so much stuff in Deus Ex
System Shock is much more simple in that way and its main systems are oretty much set
In a sense if they try to "innovate" with SS3 they will screw it up, I think everybody wants to see Shodan cackle, cybermodules and maybe see what happened with The Many, perhaps they landed on a planet and turned into a proper living ecosystem

 

[Infinitron]

Many fans also think Deus Ex's first level wasn't too great, but perhaps not for the same reasons.

Here's the first one of those interviews I anticipated: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ide-entertainment.105183/page-14#post-4388470

For Spector, heading to Otherside also offers a chance to get back into the good graces of the fans of games like Deus Ex, after a prolonged period of time working with Mickey Mouse.

“I got more and more heartfelt fan mail about Epic Mickeygames than anything I’ve ever worked on, by far,” Spector says. “But core gamers hated me… [they] thought I was a sellout. ‘You made a Mickey Mouse game!’ They never gave the game a chance, to show that it was expressing the exact same things that System Shock and Deus Ex were expressing, the underlying philosophy.”

Spector’s excited, he says, about creating a game that allows players to solve problems in creative ways in the era of Twitch streaming and Let’s Play videos. “Back then, it was hard to communicate that you could play through the games differently,” he says. “Now you can actually have people show off their unique playthroughs.”

As opposed to, I say, a linear first-person shooter experience that plays the same every time.

“If I ever make a game like that,” Spector says, “shoot me.”

 

[Irenaeus III]

The Unconventional Hardcority of Epic Mickey.

 

[Joni Odin von Hassenstein]

IW was far better than it's reputation.

Hopefully he still applies "Warren Spector's Commandments of Game Design".

1. Always Show the Goal - Players should see their next goal (or encounter an intriguing mystery) before they can achieve (or explain) it.
2. Problems not Puzzles - It's an obstacle course, not a jigsaw puzzle. Game situations should make logical sense and solutions should never depend on reading the designer's mind.
3. Multiple solutions - There should always be more than one way to get past a game obstacle. Always. Whether preplanned (weak!), or natural, growing out of the interaction of player abilities and simulation (better!) never say the words, “This is where the player does X” about a mission or situation within a mission.
4. No Forced Failure - Failure isn't fun. Getting knocked unconscious and waking up in a strange place or finding yourself standing over dead bodies while holding a smoking gun can be cool story elements, but situations the player has no chance to react to are bad. Use forced failure sparingly, to drive the story forward but don't overuse this technique!
5. It's the Characters, Stupid - Roleplaying is about interacting with other characters in a variety of ways (not just combat… not just conversation…). The choice of interaction style should always be the player's, not the designer's.
6. Players Do; NPCs Watch - It's no fun to watch an NPC do something cool. If it's a cool thing, let the player do it. If it's a boring or mundane thing, don't even let the player think about it - let an NPC do it.
7. Games Get Harder, Players Get Smarter - Make sure game difficulty escalates as players become more accustomed to the interface and more familiar with the game world. Make sure player rewards make players more powerful as the game goes on and becomes more difficult. Never throw players into a situation their skills and smarts make frustratingly difficult to overcome.
8. Pat Your Player on the Back - Random rewards drive players onward. Make sure you reward players regularly and frequently, but unpredictably. And make sure the rewards get more impressive as the game goes on and challenges become more difficult.
9. Think 3D - An effective 3D level cannot be laid out on graph paper. Paper maps may be a good starting point (though even that's under limited circumstances). A 3D game map must take into account things over the player's head and under the player's feet. If there's no need to look up and down - constantly - make a 2D game!
10. Think Interconnected - Maps in a 3D game world feature massive interconnectivity. Tunnels that go direct from Point A to Point B are bad; loops (horizontal and vertical) and areas with multiple entrance and exit points are good.

Hehe - I think this is great news though, I'm happy he's returning to what he was best at. After the long break he's had, I'm sure he'll be a great asset for Otherside.

6. is retarded though. "Everything is SPECIAL!!!" makes me definitely more bored than occasionaly doing "usual" things.

 

[Invictus]

6 I understand it as if someone has to push the red button to send the missle it should be the player not watching someone else do that

 

[Metro]

Really bro...

Infinitronhas addedDisney Epic Mickey 2to their wishlist.

 

[Slimu]

I don't get the excitement for FPSs on this site.

I love multiplayer FPSs and rpgs. These games(Underworld too) are neither.

System Shock 2 can be considered an RPG, even if it uses a first person perspective. Even the Codex included it in the greatest RPG lists.

Anything could be stretched to be considered different genres. RPGCodex is still just a group of opinions. That doesn't make it the one truth.

First person shooters are never rpgs to me, including the bethesda games. I just don't understand the fascination with first person shooters, even here. It is disappointing.

Don't get me wrong. I love a good team based FPS. I'm in the top 3% of the world when it comes to BF4, with an insane KD... But a single player FPS masquerading as an rpg just makes no sense to me. I'll never understand the fascination with underworld, which is just a FPS set in a dungeon.

They could be considered hybrids at best, and tbh, there are match 3 games that could be considered hybrid rpgs...

I think you are wrong regarding System Shock 2. It is true that there are games like Deus Ex: Human Revolution or Borderlands, which borrow some RPG elements (exp, skill trees), but that doesn't make them a RPG. Like you said, at most can be considered hybrids (DE:HR).

Now, regarding SS2, I think the other thing applies, it's an RPG with some FPS elements. By that I mean the it uses the first person perspective with real time action. But this can also be said about blobbers, but I didn't hear people say that a game like Legend of Grimrock is not a RPG.

When you play an FPS, like the ones mentioned above, the player's reflexes are probabably the most important thing that determines your damage output (besides the weapon). When you play an RPG, reflexes aren't that important, but the (upgradable) systems put in place are the most important thing that determines it. In other words, when playing an RPG, you simulate the success of your actions using the skills/attributes/perks systems. What is important is the way you grow your character(s). The game simulates your performance based on the skill/perks/attributes systems. In SS2, the following systems are put in place for you to use: stats, tech skills, weapon skills, psi powers (bassically spells), O/S upgrades (perks), implants. Besides this there are weapon upgrades and research projects with unlock new weapons, items or increase damage agains specific monsters. There are so many so that you are able to create different character types, while in a FPS usually all players will have mostly the same experience.

To explain why I think this is more of a simulationist system, I will explain how a melee weapon's damage (for the wrench) is determined. In SS2, the Strength attribute is used for improving the damage with all Melee Weapons. But this is also improved by upgrading the Standard Weapons skill. If you played the game (which I guess you didn't), you will notice that the same weapon is doing better damage not because your reflexes are faster, but because you improved your statistics. Now, going back to an FPS, when you use a melee weapon, it's damage stays mostly the same for the whole game; maybe can be improved by some weapon upgrade.

There are other aspects of an RPG like items/inventory/quests which this game uses, but I don't think they are that important in this discussion since the games mentioned above also use them.

The systems put in place for this game could be ported to another perspective (like isometric) and you wouldn't think it's not an RPG. Regarding why it was made as a first person game, I think it has more to do with the fact that the studio already had an FPS engine used already for Thief 1 & 2. You can see in the level design some of their heritage.

 

[Invictus]

Very elegant response Slimu although the grey line between action RPG (which I consider System Shock 2 to be) and a system with perks, upgrades and quirks (which seem to be everywhere these days) may be not as clear as you put it. Still I agree System Shock is not a only "FPS" in the same way Bethesda's games after Morrowind are not RPG; if the the ultimate determining factor in an action is player skill vs a computer based result then it is an Action RPG to me.
For example if I click a button in front of an enemy and the determinating factor to make a hit is my skill based on timing on the attack and enemy reaction, then that is an Action RPG.
If I click a button and what determines if a hit is made is a "virtual dice roll" as in the numbers behind the scene, the it is a proper RPG based on stats rather than player skill
The grey area becomes the factor determining the results after the hit, even popamole openworld shit as Watchdogs nowadays has these retarded perks and quirks and whatever to determine that
Does that make them RPGs? Hell no but indeed they are RPG elements in themselves. Maybe the determining factor is if they are set numbers or percentages like +20% more damage vs undead vs a straight +2 longsword but that is making my head hurt already

 

[LeStryfe79]

It's very good that all the ancient glories of RPG are getting back into gaming. The kickstarters of Chris Roberts, Tim Schaffer, the Coles and Richard Garriott have showed tremendous results. We merely needed Spector to complete that glorious list of achievements.

Who's left ?

David motherfuckin' Bradley. Though I doubt he would achieve anything worthwhile now - Kickstarter or not.

I don't know; Wizards & Warriors is a very underappreciated gem. Everyone had moved onto multiplayer; fps's and consoles and 3D gaming so the game didn't get the promotion or the chance it deserved. I think what turned many off was the still portraits of the towns, which as we now know have come back into style. Bradely is someone I would really like coming back, and would even support his kickstarter (at lowest possible tier)

W&W was great, but DWB was clearly infected by that insanity virus many a Wizardry designer caught.

 

[Archibald]

Hey look, another what is rpg discussion.

 

[Zep Zepo]

Game will be shit.

OP is a phaggot.

Ban Crispy

Zep--

 

[Leshy]

I'm 100% sure this will end up in Kickstarter, even if only for the media buzz.
But it is interesting what will the budget for this game be...

I trust Warren Spector's design skills. I can't wait to play this :D