Game News Wasteland 2 Kickstarter Update #34: Gamescom Demo Video, First Dev Diary Released

[shihonage]

Hexes are harder to code

no, they aren't. some stuff dependent on grid layout might(!) be harder to manage properly (like cover system?) but hexes have equally simple math behind them.

Character movement is the easiest part to handle. Everything on the map is dependent on grid layout. A single-cell object should take a "hex" now instead of a square, and it should have 6 neighbors.

I suspect the hex system was working good enough for show, but the scenery wasn't perfectly aligned with the grid, so they dumped it in favor of something simple that doesn't require extra tweaking time.

 

[Roguey]

If the husband always comes back with the medicine after talking to the wife, what's stopping a player who's tricked into killing her from simply reloading a save and turning around to greet the husband and give her the medicine?

How is this even a choice?

They said curing her makes the Red Skorpions upset for some reason.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Note sure why people are getting so upset over the hexes-squares change. The Codex's top 3 RPG combat engines are usually JA2, ToEE, and KoTC. None of which have hexes, two of which use squares.

And all of which have diagonal movement. I've read through the big codex threads on the topic, and while there's no consensus over which of the two grids is best, I haven't seen anyone argue in favor of squares without diagonal movement (shihonage's comment about unfair speed boosts is of course easily, but inelegantly, avoided through a 2/3 AP cost for straight/diagonal). If you don't care that much about grids then fine, but it's an objectively shitty grid, and it'd be nice if they'd explain why they had to settle for it. But I'm afraid that they'll just explain the step away from hexes when they get around to it.

 

[Excidium]

Note sure why people are getting so upset over the hexes-squares change. The Codex's top 3 RPG combat engines are usually JA2, ToEE, and KoTC. None of which have hexes, two of which use squares.

What a retarded argument. Two of the top three combat engines are based on 3.5 D&D. Let's never bother using a superior rule system.

If the husband always comes back with the medicine after talking to the wife, what's stopping a player who's tricked into killing her from simply reloading a save and turning around to greet the husband and give her the medicine?

How is this even a choice?

I don't know...

What's stopping a player who doesn't have a skill from simply editing his characters? What's the point of skill checks then?

 

[slackerwizrd]

If the husband always comes back with the medicine after talking to the wife, what's stopping a player who's tricked into killing her from simply reloading a save and turning around to greet the husband and give her the medicine?

How is this even a choice?

Brilliant logic! I can reload a save; therefore, there's no real choice!

Seriously. Is this really any different from any other game that has a save system? "Oh, I don't like this outcome. I'm going to reload a save." "My companion died! I'll reload" "I used too much ammo! I'll reload."

 

[Roguey]

Brilliant logic! I can reload a save; therefore, there's no real choice!

Seriously. Is this really any different from any other game that has a save system? "Oh, I don't like this outcome. I'm going to reload a save." "My companion died! I'll reload" "I used too much ammo! I'll reload."

It's only the illusion of choice if there's only one good outcome and the "trap" choice can be negated by going back in time a few seconds. There shouldn't be any trap choices to begin with, though as I said it appears this isn't necessarily one of those.

 

[almondblight]

What a retarded argument. Two of the top three combat engines are based on 3.5 D&D. Let's never bother using a superior rule system.

Nice logic there buddy. "Grids" is not a combat system. Look, I know that many on the Codex thinks that theorycrafting = game design, but it's not. There are a number of grid games with a better system than hex games; it's very possible that InExile felt that their grid system was better than their hex system. The addition of hex's doesn't make a system automatically better.

 

[Excidium]

What a retarded argument. Two of the top three combat engines are based on 3.5 D&D. Let's never bother using a superior rule system.

That's why there were so many posts asking Chaos Chronicles to use Pathfinder, and almost none asking them to skip DnD completely?

Because the OGL was a perfect fit for the kind of game they were making. Game riding on the coattails of ToEE, might as well use the same baseline mechanics.

Also because everyone would rather have the devs implementing a pre-existing system than coming up with their own mechanics that would most likely be worse.

What a retarded argument. Two of the top three combat engines are based on 3.5 D&D. Let's never bother using a superior rule system.

Nice logic there buddy. "Grids" is not a combat system. Look, I know that many on the Codex thinks that theorycrafting = game design, but it's not. There are a number of grid games with a better system than hex games; it's very possible that InExile felt that their grid system was better than their hex system. The addition of hex's doesn't make a system automatically better.

Hex automatically makes it better. Look at D&D with its retarded special rules for diagonals. Look at the previous Wasteland 2 gameplay video combat movement and look at this one. For the player, hexes are the superior choice

 

[almondblight]

Because the OGL was a perfect fit for the kind of game they were making. Game riding on the coattails of ToEE, might as well use the same baseline mechanics.

I see gears are slowly turning. So it's not "Let's never bother using a superior rule system," as you put it, but rather "let's use this imperfect system unless and until we can create a better system."

Hex automatically makes it better. Look at D&D with its retarded special rules for diagonals. Look at the previous Wasteland 2 gameplay video combat movement and look at this one. For the player, hexes are the superior choice

Hex's automatically make things better, and the makers of the best RPG-combat systems just didn't understand combat as well as you. Sorry, I'm going to have to side with them.

 

[Excidium]

Because the OGL was a perfect fit for the kind of game they were making. Game riding on the coattails of ToEE, might as well use the same baseline mechanics.

I see gears are slowly turning. So it's not "Let's never bother using a superior rule system," as you put it, but rather "let's use this imperfect system unless and until we can create a better system."

No, it's more like "you're cloning this game, shamelessly clone the mechanics too, because you know, the license is free"

Hex automatically makes it better. Look at D&D with its retarded special rules for diagonals. Look at the previous Wasteland 2 gameplay video combat movement and look at this one. For the player, hexes are the superior choice

Hex's automatically make things better, and the makers of the best RPG-combat systems just didn't understand combat as well as you. Sorry, I'm going to have to side with them.

Yes, they certainly never make bad design decisions. Best RPG-combat systems just means it's better than the rest (which doesn't really take much when you take a look at the majority of CRPGs), doesn't mean it's actually good.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Excidium, word through the grapevine has it that they probably nixed hexes because cover would become nigh impossible to implement. Something's telling me that this would be a copout, but that just might be my edginess; do you know of any rpg combat systems with hexes that handle cover elegantly?

 

[tuluse]

I don't understand why cover is so hard to do with hexes. It doesn't seem hard conceptually to me.

 

[Infinitron]

FYI, "word through the grapevine" = Vault Dweller conjecture

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

FYI, "word through the grapevine" = Vault Dweller conjecture

I just didn't want to present it as my own idea, sheesh.

 

[imweasel]

They probably got rid of hexes because it much easier to line up objects in the enviroment to a square grid (e.g. orthogonally in relation to each other).

Not like it matters anyway, this bitching about the removal of the hex grid is retarded. Diagonal movement is still possible with a square grid.... No idea why it was not possible in the demo though.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

FYI, "word through the grapevine" = Vault Dweller conjecture

btw, I forgot, and given that you have such forumgraphic memory maybe you know, where did VD mention this?

 

[Excidium]

Indeed. Sounds like a bullshit excuse to me if it's about the cover system. Specially one so simplistic.

Excidium, word through the grapevine has it that they probably nixed hexes because cover would become nigh impossible to implement. Something's telling me that this would be a copout, but that just might be my edginess; do you know of any rpg combat systems with hexes that handle cover elegantly?

You're asking about code implementations? I can't think of many CRPGs that even have cover systems or hex grids, let alone both. In terms of design there's no difference, shit obstructs line of sight, something happens.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

You're asking about code implementations? I can't think of many CRPGs that even have cover systems or hex grids, let alone both. In terms of design there's no difference, shit obstructs line of sight, something happens.

I meant p&p; Gurps maybe?

edit: naha, not totally stupid!

edit: wait, yes, that was a totally stupid question.

 

[Excidium]

You're asking about code implementations? I can't think of many CRPGs that even have cover systems or hex grids, let alone both. In terms of design there's no difference, shit obstructs line of sight, something happens.

I meant p&p; Gurps maybe?

All p&p games I know, cover either provides hit penalties and/or absorb damage from attacks. But it's p. irrelevant, any issue they had has more to do with technical shit like the placement of objects that provide cover and calculating line of sight with the grid overlay like people suggest than with the mechanical aspect because even more complex systems than what they have have p. simple logic.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Indeed. Sounds like a bullshit excuse to me if it's about the cover system. Specially one so simplistic.

Excidium, word through the grapevine has it that they probably nixed hexes because cover would become nigh impossible to implement. Something's telling me that this would be a copout, but that just might be my edginess; do you know of any rpg combat systems with hexes that handle cover elegantly?

You're asking about code implementations? I can't think of many CRPGs that even have cover systems or hex grids, let alone both. In terms of design there's no difference, shit obstructs line of sight, something happens.

Look at that raiders' camp, for example. Now imagine that the grid is hex-based and imagine enemies taking cover. See the problem yet?

If not:

Everything on the map is dependent on grid layout. A single-cell object should take a "hex" now instead of a square, and it should have 6 neighbors.

I suspect the hex system was working good enough for show, but the scenery wasn't perfectly aligned with the grid, so they dumped it in favor of something simple that doesn't require extra tweaking time.

While some objects would work ok with hexes, most won't. When you're supposed to take cover behind a wall yet standing half a hex away from it because the hex system doesn't allow you to stand next to it, it becomes a visual issue.

 

[tuluse]

There are numerous solutions to that.

Like just make the characters a little bit smaller than that grid cells, and then props can stick into hexes a little bit with a character in there with them.

 

[Excidium]

Indeed. Sounds like a bullshit excuse to me if it's about the cover system. Specially one so simplistic.

Excidium, word through the grapevine has it that they probably nixed hexes because cover would become nigh impossible to implement. Something's telling me that this would be a copout, but that just might be my edginess; do you know of any rpg combat systems with hexes that handle cover elegantly?

You're asking about code implementations? I can't think of many CRPGs that even have cover systems or hex grids, let alone both. In terms of design there's no difference, shit obstructs line of sight, something happens.

Look at that raiders' camp, for example. Now imagine that the grid is hex-based and imagine enemies taking cover. See the problem yet?

If not:

Everything on the map is dependent on grid layout. A single-cell object should take a "hex" now instead of a square, and it should have 6 neighbors.

I suspect the hex system was working good enough for show, but the scenery wasn't perfectly aligned with the grid, so they dumped it in favor of something simple that doesn't require extra tweaking time.

While some objects would work ok with hexes, most won't. When you're supposed to take cover behind a wall yet standing half a hex away from it because the hex system doesn't allow you to stand next to it, it becomes a visual issue.

Yes, like I said on the post after that. But wouldn't some visual cue do the job? Isn't that what those "sticky cover" animations are for?

 

[DeepOcean]

I liked the video, the combat encounter design while being a little too staged is acceptable but nothing mind blowing. The graphics are crap but I'm not a graphics whore so I don't care. The music is awesome and very Fallout like. While the area design is weak with obvious and restrictive paths, but the agricultural center appeared to be a much better area,so I will not judge. If someone showed me a movie of Arroyo and the Temple of Trials, I would think that game was the worst RPG ever. The humour is silly but if it isn't Fallout 3 type of silly, I don't mind. The only thing that really bothered me was the Red Skorpion militia letting 4 heavily armed strangers in their territory with their guns because you paid a gun tax, that doesn't make any sense. You don't let strangers entering your territory with guns if you want to keep control of it, even a gun tax is counterintuitive.

 

[FeelTheRads]

But wouldn't some visual cue do the job?

Exactly. But I guess that wouldn't satisfy newfags. ZOMG ITS NOT REALISTIC IMMERSION BROKEN SHIT GAEM
Of course, could be that's not the reason they switched.

 

[felipepepe]

Chaos Chronicles was handling hexes pretty well, it seems:

Cover seems quite possible here.