Game News Wasteland 2 Kickstarter Update #34: Gamescom Demo Video, First Dev Diary Released

[Vault Dweller]

There are numerous solutions to that.

Like just make the characters a little bit smaller than that grid cells, and then props can stick into hexes a little bit with a character in there with them.

No. A hex-based grid works best when you have some generic combat field or plenty of unobstructed space. It doesn't work as well when you have plenty of objects like buildings, doorways, various cover things, and other things with 90 degree corners.

It doesn't surprise me that they started with hexes and showed them on an empty field with some insects, but had to abandon them later.

As for CC, cover is possible around the bridge because it's a carefully measured object, designed for passability, and it's big enough, but if you look at the object at the bottom to the left, you'll see that the hexes leave a wide around around it. So, if it was a WL2 map and a character took cover behind it, he would be standing almost a hex away, creating a visual issue.

 

[Excidium]

High cost to pay for such an small issue.

 

[shihonage]

High cost to pay for such an small issue.

A lazy hex grid half-poking from under most of the game's structures is pretty shitty. Wanna stand next to the wall? Well... I guess you are... and the cover rules do apply... but it sure doesn't look like it!

 

[Excidium]

Abstraction!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Abstraction doesn't work with detailed graphics.

 

[DeepOcean]

Chaos Chronicles was handling hexes pretty well, it seems:

Cover seems quite possible here.

Man, don't make me sad. Don't remind me of what could had been.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Abstraction doesn't work with detailed graphics.

Fuck graphics, then.

And of course it does. Place a fucking icon on the character that's supposed to be in cover and done. Board games work with detailed graphics, there's no reason video games shouldn't. If one can't take this kind of abstraction, then maybe this kind of game is not for him.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Personally, I loved that KOTC2 shot and thought that it was an improvement over the original, but that's not what most people want.

 

[Excidium]

Which KOTC 2 shot? That's maptools.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And that's what the game would have looked like (minus the actual tools).

 

[Excidium]

Oooh I see. Yeah, and I agree with you on that. With that level of abstraction you have a lot more freedom. And you can still keep a level of fanciness on the graphics if you're smart about it. Japs have been doing it for a long time.

 

[Vault Dweller]

With that level of abstraction you have a lot more freedom.

And your imagination can easily handle the rest.

 

[tuluse]

A lazy hex grid half-poking from under most of the game's structures is pretty shitty. Wanna stand next to the wall? Well... I guess you are... and the cover rules do apply... but it sure doesn't look like it!

Why can't the graphics then just show the guy leaning on the wall?

Also don't draw hexes that can't be stood in.

 

[imweasel]

A lazy hex grid half-poking from under most of the game's structures is pretty shitty. Wanna stand next to the wall? Well... I guess you are... and the cover rules do apply... but it sure doesn't look like it!

Why can't the graphics then just show the guy leaning on the wall?

That would require more coding. More coding, more bugs, more time, more money. Bla.

A square grid also works very good and is easier to implement. A recent game (XCOM: Enemy Unknown) uses a square grid and it works absofuckinglutely perfect.

 

[shihonage]

Why can't the graphics then just show the guy leaning on the wall?

That's gonna look pretty bizarre in a dense environment filled with misaligned objects. Drunken Squad? Also, new animation states just to work around the hex problem? This is a 3 mil game, not 30 mil.

Also don't draw hexes that can't be stood in.

You'd still end up with corridors that are plenty wide and yet you can't walk through them because each wall clips a hex. There'd be a lot of manual alignment work that is easier managed with rectangular tiles to fit rectangular objects.

 

[tuluse]

That's gonna look pretty bizarre in a dense environment filled with misaligned objects. Drunken Squad? Also, new animation states just to work around the hex problem? This is a 3 mil game, not 30 mil.



You'd still end up with corridors that are plenty wide and yet you can't walk through them because each wall clips a hex. There'd be a lot of manual alignment work that is easier managed with rectangular tiles to fit rectangular objects.

I've already suggest a fix to that problem.

Also, why would level designers make corridors the wrong size when they would be working the hexes? That doesn't make any sense.

Edit: I don't think it costs 27 million dollars to make a couple animations for a guy leaning in cover on a prop which is really close but not quite exactly on the edge of a hex.

 

[tuluse]

That would require more coding. More coding, more bugs, more time, more money. Bla.

It doesn't require any coding. Just some extra animations. Which do cost money, and frankly I don't really care, but apparently "people" do.

(XCOM: Enemy Unknown... works absofuckinglutely perfect.

No.

 

[shihonage]

I've already suggest a fix to that problem.

Not drawing hexes under the corridor walls is what would make it even more confusing as to why you can't walk through the space. This would be result of just taking an existing map and laying a hex grid under everything without extensive and meticulous tweaking.

Also, why would level designers make corridors the wrong size when they would be working the hexes? That doesn't make any sense

This isn't a sprite-based game, it's a 3D engine with its own pluses and minuses. The inherent freedom that 3D engine allows, also means more work in aligning the assets with rigid grids. And of all grids, the rectangular one is the easiest to work with.

With sprites, you can just make these neat building blocks that all fit together in hexes. Not sure if it's that easy with the 3D engine Fargo uses.

That's my hypothesis as to why they switched.

Edit: I don't think it costs 27 million dollars to make a couple animations for a guy leaning in cover on a prop which is really close but not quite exactly on the edge of a hex.

6 animations for each visual character type in the game. I don't know whether weapons are handled dynamically or whether that number should also be multiplied by the weapons each character can potentially carry.

P.S. my meddling with Fallout: Tactics art crap suggests the game used rectangles too. Yet it was pretty well-received.

 

[slackerwizrd]

It's only the illusion of choice if there's only one good outcome and the "trap" choice can be negated by going back in time a few seconds. There shouldn't be any trap choices to begin with, though as I said it appears this isn't necessarily one of those.

True enough. I suppose I'm was being too assumptive with respect to consequences always occurring from your actions within your party and outside your party. From the limited play I've viewed, it doesn't appear to be a lot of reactivity within your party / companions. It would be interesting to see if any exist, and what tensions may be caused within your group for your 'mercy killing.'

 

[Surf Solar]

I dont really understand the problem, I use a cover system in my game as well, use a hex grid and all walls, objects are alligned well and can be made so easily. While behind cergain cover the character just assumes the crouch stance and you have a visual cue that infact you are in cover. If a guy can do that in his freetime as a hobby, then sure some industry vets with 3 mil... oh wait, its InXile.

 

[shihonage]

I dont really understand the problem, I use a cover system in my game as well, use a hex grid and all walls, objects are alligned well and can be made so easily. While behind cergain cover the character just assumes the crouch stance and you have a visual cue that infact you are in cover. If a guy can do that in his freetime as a hobby, then sure some industry vets with 3 mil... oh wait, its InXile.

Your game is using an engine that was made around Fallout 1/2 graphics structures (hexagonal graphics resources), and was coded by a rather talented Russian team over a long period of time. Of course objects are aligned well. Fallout consists of convenient sprite-based building blocks that can just be plonked on the map and align perfectly.

I don't think inXile started off like this. They probably started off enjoying the freedom of 3D, and then realized that in order to use hex, they'd have to break every single resource into a building block that fits onto a hexagonal tile, and build everything that way. Either that, or enjoy the aforementioned "lazy grid alignment".

 

[Surf Solar]

That doesnt really debunk the argument that InXile are incompetent :D

 

[felipepepe]

Oooh I see. Yeah, and I agree with you on that. With that level of abstraction you have a lot more freedom. And you can still keep a level of fanciness on the graphics if you're smart about it. Japs have been doing it for a long time.

Card Hunter have the best looking board I have ever seen, it mixes great graphics with abstraction pretty well:

 

[Roguey]

Watch as I get a bunch of people to turn against hexes in a single post.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/49082-4e-rules-first-look/#entry834400

Why the heck don't they just switch to hexes? It's the most efficient use of space and allows for very easy modeling of circles and cones. HEXAGONS: NATURE'S POLYGON.

Hexes rule, squares drool.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/49082-4e-rules-first-look/page-2#entry834660

I ran some Fallout tabletop games with a hex grid (AS GOD INTENDED) and I had no problems drawing maps. You just need to establish a rule for divided hexes in things like long hallways. I.e., can people stand in a half-hex or not? Even that's pretty easy to resolve: anything smaller than Medium can, but it doesn't count as a full square for Medium and higher, meaning occupying that half-hex with any part means you are "squeezed" (as in, the technical status).

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/42139-age-of-decadence/page-17#entry1001615

Why a square grid? What happened to hexagons? ****ing wankers.

IRON TOWER SCREWS US AGAIN.

 

[Infinitron]