Game News Wasteland 2 Kickstarter Update #35: Follow Up on the Prison Demo

[Excidium]

AP costs are based on the time each task takes. What takes more time, pointing the gun and pulling the trigger or removing the magazine, putting bullets in it then inserting it back in? What's faster to reload, a pistol or a minigun?

Yes, rhose are realism/simulation-based arguments. Do you have any other, more substantial arguments for a heftier reload AP cost?

No they ARE NOT about realism. I can't make an argument for realism because I don't have any knowledge about guns. For all I know I'm full of shit.

It's just about the mechanics working in a logical fashion.

Do you have any other, more substantial arguments for a heftier reload AP cost?

The system is shit/laughably poor effort at RPG design. AP costs cannot be fixed for a more logical ratio without completely breaking things further.

more time implementing more complex designs.

Except... nobody does it, because graphics and the rest of this shit actually take a lot more money and time than it did before. If games were made at the graphical level of the old game, then you would be right, but they're not.
Even inXile prefers to focus on animations (or so they say) rather than more complex designs.

And that's why everything is shit.

 

[Infinitron]

What do you mean "logical"? It's a video game.

PROTIP: Don't analyze mechanics according to what's "logical" or what "makes sense". Instead, ask yourself "how does this affect minute-to-minute gameplay, in practice?" What are the effects in terms of challenge and the player's experience?

 

[drae]

The system is shit/laughably poor effort at RPG design. AP costs cannot be fixed for a more logical ratio without completely breaking things further.

It's a fine example of RPG design. Maybe if you were making a straight TB strategy game, or a simulator, it would be an example of poor design. For an RPG it's more than enough.

 

[Brother None]

Even inXile prefers to focus on animations (or so they say) rather than more complex designs.

What? When did we say this? Does Wasteland 2 look/sound like a game that focuses on graphics? Our graphics process has been extremely inexpensive thanks to Unity, with the focus being on world size and reactivity. And that'll show in the final product. Sure, animations are a consideration with stances, but they're not the only one. If they were, it'd be an easier decision, but they're not.

 

[drae]

What? When did we say this?

It's the Codex, it doesn't matter whether you said it. It's enough that people think you implied it




in a dream they had.

 

[Infinitron]

Anyway, since I want to go to bed, here's the real answer.

A high AP cost for reloading is a good thing because it makes players think more about conserving ammo during fights, because it makes total magazine capacity of a weapon a more important factor, because it encourages players to bring and use more than one weapon in fights, and in general adds more shorter term tactical concerns to combat in addition to the longer term total ammunition count concern.

The low AP cost for reloading makes running out of ammo almost a non-event, which is bad design. An empty clip should be an OH SHIT moment.

 

[Excidium]

What do you mean "logical"? It's a video game.

I mean logical as in working like the fiction depicts it. Guns in Fallout are meant to work like their real-life counterparts, or whatever is closest to them. The AP costs don't reflect that.

"It's a video game" is the shittiest excuse ever for being lazy.

PROTIP: Don't analyze mechanics according to what's "logical" or what "makes sense". Instead, ask yourself "how does this affect minute-to-minute gameplay, in practice?" What are the effects in terms of challenge and the player's experience?

Good RPG design is about balancing those. If things don't work like the fiction depicts them, it simply breaks as an RPG system. Change one or the other if there's an issue.

The system is shit/laughably poor effort at RPG design. AP costs cannot be fixed for a more logical ratio without completely breaking things further.

It's a fine example of RPG design. Maybe if you were making a straight TB strategy game, or a simulator, it would be an example of poor design. For an RPG it's more than enough.

No it isn't, it's awful. Like holy shit BAD.

Anyway, since I want to go to bed, here's the real answer.

A high AP cost for reloading is a good thing because it makes players think more about conserving ammo during fights, because it makes total magazine capacity of a weapon a more important factor, because it encourages players to bring and use more than one weapon in fights, and in general adds more shorter term tactical concerns to combat in addition to the longer term total ammunition count concern.

The low AP cost for reloading makes running out of ammo almost a non-event, which is bad design.

Game design school here.

 

[godsend1989]

Glad i didnt buy this one but i think i will go for the second game.

 

[drae]

Anyway, since I want to go to bed, here's the real answer.

A high AP cost for reloading is a good thing because it makes players think more about conserving ammo during fights

I would have thought the scarcity of ammo did the same job.

No it isnt, it's awful. Like holy shit BAD.

In a game which solely focuses on combat realism and strategy, yes. In a deep RPG with strategy elements in combat, no.

 

[Infinitron]

I would have thought the scarcity of ammo did the same job.

Not enough. Long term, you can always find more ammo, in stores or on enemy corpses. Short term, there needs to be a significant penalty for an empty gun.

 

[Excidium]

No it isnt, it's awful. Like holy shit BAD.

In a game which solely focuses on combat realism and strategy, yes. In a deep RPG with strategy elements in combat, no.

No. It IS terrible, every aspect of it is poorly thought-out, not just things related directly to combat.

 

[Brother None]

So did anyone count AP cost for using and reloading guns in the WL2 demo video yet?

 

[Excidium]

So did anyone count AP cost for using and reloading guns in the WL2 demo video yet?

Is it needlessly complicated like the AP costs for movement?

 

[Infinitron]

I do think we need to consider that the cost of firing a gun is also an abstraction of the time it takes to aim it.

So it's not necessarily illogical that reloading is cheaper, though it should be non-trivial.

 

[Excidium]

I do think we need to consider that the cost of firing a gun is also an abstraction of the time it takes to aim it.

So it's not necessarily illogical that reloading is cheaper, though it should be non-trivial.

We are about to enter burst and aimed attack costs territory.

 

[Infinitron]

We are about to enter burst and aimed attack costs territory.

Yes, or alternatively a cost for turning to a different direction to simulate the aiming cost separately. Wasteland 2 won't do that though.

And then there's firing out of cover, which would take more time. That should be pretty common in this game.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Even inXile prefers to focus on animations (or so they say) rather than more complex designs.

What? When did we say this? Does Wasteland 2 look/sound like a game that focuses on graphics? Our graphics process has been extremely inexpensive thanks to Unity, with the focus being on world size and reactivity. And that'll show in the final product. Sure, animations are a consideration with stances, but they're not the only one. If they were, it'd be an easier decision, but they're not.

Well, when you're saying you have 15-20 animations per skill then I'm gonna think animations are your focus. Sorry. That number is crazy, insane and outrageous.

 

[tuluse]

crazy and insane

 

[Brother None]

It's madness. MADNESS I TELL YOU.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I wanted to say mad instead of outrageous but I thought I'd go too far.

 

[Lancehead]

What do you mean "logical"? It's a video game.

PROTIP: Don't analyze mechanics according to what's "logical" or what "makes sense". Instead, ask yourself "how does this affect minute-to-minute gameplay, in practice?" What are the effects in terms of challenge and the player's experience?

Implementing gameworld logic (assuming your game has one) in mechanics and systems is the best way to introduce trade-offs such as:

Anyway, since I want to go to bed, here's the real answer.

A high AP cost for reloading is a good thing because it makes players think more about conserving ammo during fights, because it makes total magazine capacity of a weapon a more important factor, because it encourages players to bring and use more than one weapon in fights, and in general adds more shorter term tactical concerns to combat in addition to the longer term total ammunition count concern.

The low AP cost for reloading makes running out of ammo almost a non-event, which is bad design. An empty clip should be an OH SHIT moment.

Those trade-offs haven't come into existence out of the blue; the designer didn't invent them, they follow from logic.

 

[crawlkill]

What do you mean "logical"? It's a video game.

PROTIP: Don't analyze mechanics according to what's "logical" or what "makes sense". Instead, ask yourself "how does this affect minute-to-minute gameplay, in practice?" What are the effects in terms of challenge and the player's experience?

but Infinitron what if that doesn't support my arbitrary preconceptions about what can and can't make funs happen

seriously, gameplay is designed around gameplay, not anyone's concept of what is and is not 'realistic.' you're talking about a game in which people get shot repeatedly and then spring back to perfect health. realism isn't a thing.

 

[commie]

I do think we need to consider that the cost of firing a gun is also an abstraction of the time it takes to aim it.

So it's not necessarily illogical that reloading is cheaper, though it should be non-trivial.

Try reloading a belt fed machine gun, or a RPG. I think perhaps the best thing would be to implement different reloading AP costs for different categories of weapons. Making a 'heavy weapons' build should then gravitate the player to debate the merits of getting the 'quick reload' perk or whatever or grin and bear the high reload cost in combat in favor of something else. A pistol reload should be 'trivial' in cost with the obvious tradeoff that each bullet does little damage.

 

[HiddenX]

CRPGs are NOT a real world simulation. CRPG actions like moving, doing things, fighting, using skills etc. are abstractions of a small subset of real world processes.

The main goal in a CRPG is not to make them close to real world processes. The main goal should be maximizing the fun, challenge, usability and learnability (easy ruleset).

Non CRPG example:
Look at the Chess boardgame: Very abstract, fun, easy to learn the rules, challenging.

Tactical CRPG example:
Incubation

 

[janjetina]

The main goal should be maximizing the fun, challenge, usability and learnability (easy ruleset).

That is a general requirement for any game. Computer RPGs have their additional requirements, like game world consistency, plausability (not in terms of realism, but in terms of quasi-realism), local and global world reactivity etc.