Game News Wasteland 2 Kickstarter Update #35: Follow Up on the Prison Demo

[Excidium]

So, they were going to do free movement, then a guy did a hex grid and they loved it, so they decided to go with squares.... GENIUS!

Yeah...Why didn't they just go with free movement then? The grid doesn't seem to serve any purpose other than looking cool.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

I still want them to go to hell.

Yeah, it's fucked up. Doesn't change the fact that they made great music while stealing from other people. Impoverished or not, I'm just saying art is generally a communal pot from which all take their cues.

 

[Grotesque]

being a graphix whore = wanting a cohesive, tasteful and cerebral representation of ingame mechanics.

guess what. quest design will be so fucked up that we graphix whores will still have something in the end.

 

[xilo3z]

I already heard Csárdás in the prison theme. That's one.

Oh come on that is a folk standard and has been used in everything. You are reaching way to far. Do you get angry when pianist play renditions of Monk's Dream, or trumpets work Dizzie Gillespie's Salt Peanuts into their recordings. I mean my god the amount of jazz bass players that throw in famous Jaco Pastorious lines into their songs is so damn high it's ridiculous, from Michanl Manring's "When We Last Spoke", to Bela Fleck's "Big Country". Do you also get angry when bands like Dream Theater work in Jingle Bells, and scales based around it into their songs? These are musical standards - meant to be used and abused, and have been since the dawn of time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_jazz_standards If you know anyone who plays jazz, odds are they know to play just about every song on there and also work call and responses to those songs in their own or build entire songs based on them (Much like Manring's song mentioned above which is supposed to be a continuation of the Weather Report classic "A Remark You Made"). Hell Csárdás has even been used by Lady Gaga as the background to one of her songs, and which all the other chords, melodies and such were then based off of in it.... I've seen you post this same thing about Csárdás over and over again, and I'm sure if you're just being obtuse or what.

 

[I ASK INANE QUESTIONS]

Beta Next month, time enough for all of us to evaluate the true state of the game.

Beta Next month

Doesn't seem likely. Game's as far from beta as ever, what's with all that grid nonsense and the fact that most areas aren't even ready.

 

[Joni Odin von Hassenstein]

And it's all stolen from something else.

Yeah. That never happens in music. I mean The Beatles, The Stones and Zeppelin never, ever, ever listened to American blues music. Ever.

I think the Stones and Led Zep can go to hell for getting absurdly rich by stealing from impoverished black people.

I mean I enjoy a lot of their music and all, but I still want them to go to hell.

"Stealing" usually occurs, when somebody >owns< something.

 

[Azrael the cat]

And it's all stolen from something else.

Yeah. That never happens in music. I mean The Beatles, The Stones and Zeppelin never, ever, ever listened to American blues music. Ever.

I think the Stones and Led Zep can go to hell for getting absurdly rich by stealing from impoverished black people.

I mean I enjoy a lot of their music and all, but I still want them to go to hell.

You do know that the Stones, in particular, spent much of the 60s and 70s trying to promote the black musicians that inspired them?

Not only were they completely open about having grown up loving black musicians - and Mexican musicians for that matter (Keith Richards' guitar work owes as much to the Mexican guitar greats as it does blues) - but they'd regularly play on their idols' albums, form collaboration projects with the black and Mexican musicians that inspired them, and would routinely get those same musicians to tour with them so they could play sets with them and show their audience where their music had come from. They also berated radio stations and their own fans for playing their own albums, yet refusing to pay any attention to the black musicians that had inspired them.

That doesn't sound like theft to me - more like tribute and artistic appreciation. The problem wasn't with the white musicians - it was the idiot fans who refused to try anything they weren't familiar with, no matter how many times the Stones and Led Zeppelin tried to tell them that there was a goldmine of great black music that had gone sadly unrecognised.

 

[Azrael the cat]

"Stealing" usually occurs, when somebody >owns< something.

There's also the old rule of art - poor artists 'borrow', great artists STEAL. I.e. they take a prior artstyle and then make it their own (as opposed to a pale imitation - i.e. 'borrowing').

 

[Infinitron]

Doesn't seem likely. Game's as far from beta as ever, what's with all that grid nonsense and the fact that most areas aren't even ready.

The areas are ready and even if they don't have time, the grid isn't a critical feature that needs to be perfected for the beta.

 

[codexian reject]

So, they were going to do free movement, then a guy did a hex grid and they loved it, so they decided to go with squares.... GENIUS!

Yeah...Why didn't they just go with free movement then? The grid doesn't seem to serve any purpose other than looking cool.

Looking cool ? This cover boxes tetris level design looks cool alright
They should keep free movement in, instead of wasting time on grids.

 

[VonVentrue]

and the finally largest risk comes from animation. Our animation system is pretty robust. We’d essentially be adding 2 additional states (crouching and prone)

Am I misunderstanding something here or do they not realize one of those stances has been pretty much implemented already (which renders the whole "animation" argument rather moot, potential difficulties coding in proper AI behaviour etc. aside)? Both the Rangers and the NPCs assume a crouching position when behind waist-high cover nodes.

 

[codexian reject]

I thought 'stand' and 'crouch' stances were going to be fully implemented, it was the plan from the beginning and this discussion is only about the third, 'prone' stance... confused.

 

[Infinitron]

I thought 'stand' and 'crouch' stances were going to be fully implemented, it was the plan from the beginning and this discussion is only about the third, 'prone' stance... confused.

That was never a given. Check out some of the early discussions on the official W2 forums, where respected oldschooler posters like paultakeda argued against stances as being too un-Wasteland-like. I think that had some effect on the game's direction.

And here's our interview with Brian: http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=8046

BF: This is certainly a hot subject and a perfect example of where I want to put a little more research and get more feedback on. Jagged Alliance 2 has come up a lot... Fallout Tactics has also come up frequently. The question will be how hardcore we go and is there something in between these two worlds and the Wasteland 1 way. We know for sure you are going to see your group in combat, so immediately it lifts it up from Wasteland 1.

As you can see, he heavily implies that just by going isometric, Wasteland 2 is already tactical enough compared to the original game, and there's no need to go full JA2 with stances and stuff.

 

[Roguey]

Doesn't seem likely. Game's as far from beta as ever, what's with all that grid nonsense and the fact that most areas aren't even ready.

They're already feature-complete which makes them beta-in-all-but-name.

 

[felipepepe]

The game already has cover, it doesn't need stances on top, especially since I doubt it will provide hardcore tactical challenges.

But maybe for mods & custom maps it might be useful...

 

[General Maxson]

Yeah, but what about the lame quests and C&C (so far, what we've seen)? Squares are OK. Wasting money on stupid animation is not. This was supposed to be old school RPG. Fallout had a quite detailed graphics and only a generic animation for all skills, and it didn't bother me.

 

[Ramireza]

Yeah, but what about the lame quests and C&C (so far, what we've seen)? Squares are OK. Wasting money on stupid animation is not. This was supposed to be old school RPG. Fallout had a quite detailed graphics and only a generic animation for all skills, and it didn't bother me.

TBH : I like the animations in Fallout1/2 more then the one i saw in the terrible W2 Prison Demo. Better basic, but solid animations then fluid animated Desert-Skaters. I have watched the W2 prison demo about 10 times now, i CANT get into this shit, sorry.

 

[Excidium]

respected oldschooler posters like paultakeda argued against stances as being too un-Wasteland-like. I think that had some effect on the game's direction.

What am I doing here

 

[Infinitron]

Excidium I'm not making any value judgements. The fact is, discussions like the following helped shape the direction that Wasteland 2 took. If you have a problem with that, maybe you should have been there.

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1133&p=19730

Re: Tactical combat style
by paultakeda » April 1st, 2012, 11:35 pm

I just stumbled on this article. The embedded video is a battle in Pool of Radiance (also one of my all time favorites) that depicts what I imagine a Wasteland 2 would have been had it released during that period. The sheer number of opponents and the tactics in just position placement makes this a pitched battle without having to micromanage stances. There is no AP, per se. You can move then attack but once you attack the character's turn is ended. This makes just movement crucial for combat tactics.

I think it would be a good thing for us to have a look at this fairly advanced example of golden age RPG combat and consider how we could elaborate and enhance it (besides graphics and sound) without losing the essence of golden age RPG combat.

Re: Tactical combat style
by Gizmo » April 1st, 2012, 11:53 pm

PoR is a great game; it shipped the same year as Wasteland. Wasteland is closer to Bard's Tale than PoR. I'd have to think that Wasteland 2 (back then), would have been closer to Wasteland 1. They weren't forced to use the combat system they did, it was a choice.

One thing that I really liked about PoR, was that fighters had the 'Cleave' ability if their opponents were low enough level, and died from the attack. You didn't get that in the other D&D gold-box games, because none of the opponents were that low a level anymore.

Re: Tactical combat style
by paultakeda » April 2nd, 2012, 12:06 am

Okay, sure. But given that folks want something with more tactics (beyond detach party in WL) then PoR is a good example of individual characters per tile. Fallout's combat system is more similar to PoR than WL but I like how PoR allows you to do quite a number of things that don't cost movement but an attack ends the turn for the character. I also liked how turning your back on an enemy allows for that enemy to attack as you retreat and moving up to an enemy might allow them to attack during your turn. These are all attribute/skill checks and introduce a layer of complexity to movement that those who want more tactical combat can enjoy yet does not cause a micromanagement situation.

Re: Tactical combat style
by Gizmo » April 2nd, 2012, 12:51 am

I generally have a serious peeve about that logic; I see it a lot, applied to various ideas and game suggestion. [Speaking generally] IMO when someone "wants more" or something else, or additional, they should play a different title that offers what they want ~not expect or suggest that an established title (or series) incorporate their idea ~because some folks want it. This is tantamount to requesting strawberries on an anchovy pizza because lots of folks like strawberries. Wasteland is a different animal than Pool of Radiance or Fallout, or Baldur's Gate. One plays the Wasteland series for the wasteland gameplay, setting, and general experience; they play Fallout or Pool of Radiance for a different setting and a more tactical experience.

** I know that I would like Wasteland 2 if it's combat were a lot like Fallout's; I like Fallout a lot... but it still annoys me to an extent that Brian Fargo plans a combat system that is more akin to Fallout than Wasteland.

Re: Tactical combat style
by paultakeda » April 2nd, 2012, 12:58 am

Just want to point out that I was one of those who never advocated increased tactics and in many ways was more in the camp of Wasteland is Wasteland, but as we already know that we're going to visually see combat then the Fallout isometric view introduces increased emphasis on tactical movement. So I'm going with the flow on that but wanted to showcase PoR's use of movement as tactics, where a lot can happen just moving from one tile to another and not once do you go into a screen to go prone, crouch or run.

 

[Excidium]

If I was there I'd just question using AD&D game from 1988 as a golden standard of tactical combat.

 

[codexian reject]

Well, yeah, wonders of design by committee. With every new bit of info Wasteland 2 seems to be more and more compromised.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't think inXile ever planned to make the combat system JA2 complex, but they might have changed their minds if there was an overwhelming demand for it from backers.

Since the game's backers are primarily Fallout fans, with some graybeard Wasteland fans as well, and neither of those games was tactical, it was obvious that wouldn't happen.

 

[Excidium]

Which is bullshit if you ask me. Fallout combat isn't weak because the developers decided "let's make combat suck". Not many RPGs before fallout had action points, aimed attacks, visibility penalties, hex grid movement, critical tables, etc. They tried to make combat tactical but they just kinda sucked at designing systems. A game inspired by Fallout should try to make combat tactical to the best of their ability.

Since the game's backers are primarily Fallout fans, with some graybeard Wasteland fans as well, and neither of those games was tactical, it was obvious that wouldn't happen.

Those faggots aren't fallout fans, juts nostalgic old people. Real Fallout fans would want a game that continues on Fallout's legacy, not just a ctrl+c ctrl+v.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Still likely to have better combat than every Top 10 Codex RPG sans ToEE, even without stances.

 

[Infinitron]

Not many RPGs before fallout had action points, aimed attacks, visibility penalties, hex grid movement, critical tables, etc. They tried to make combat tactical but they just kinda sucked at designing systems.

I'm not sure if having a supa-detailed combat model necessarily means that the designer's intention was to implement tactical combat. I suspect that some of those 90s designers had a mindset of "add more stats and details cuz those are cool", especially in Fallout's case where they were originally intending to implement GURPS and then had to replace it with something equally complex.

And then of course they didn't give you a controllable party, which undercut the entire thing.