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Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Brother None

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Don't all games need good levels and good enemies?

OK, true. What I meant was that the system, from what we know, seems shallow and uninteresting from a tactical viewpoint and only slightly interesting from a strategic one, on its own, like X-COM's, so encounter design goes from being key to being all-or-nothing.
I am curious, you keep comparing it to X-Com, but I'm curious what cRPG systems you're comparing it to that "can create depth on its own"?
 

Grunker

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I disagree. Neo-X-COM had excellent level design for the most part. The leveled terrain levels where some of the most solid small-stage level design I've seen in a turn-based game. The problem was the maps were re-used ad infinitum, not varied enough and there were very few of them.
You're not disagreeing with me. The levels were boring because they were re-used. If the levels weren't boring (regardless of the reason why), the game would have been better.

What I'm saying is that Wasteland 2 needs good levels, as much as it needs good enemies.

Alright, agreed, but we're still discussing the system.

Don't all games need good levels and good enemies?

OK, true. What I meant was that the system, from what we know, seems shallow and uninteresting from a tactical viewpoint and only slightly interesting from a strategic one, on its own, like X-COM's, so encounter design goes from being key to being all-or-nothing.
I am curious, you keep comparing it to X-Com, but I'm curious what cRPG systems you're comparing it to that "can create depth on its own"?

Eh... I hope you realize that "OK, true" meant "OK, you're right that "can create depth on its own" is exagerrated", buuuuut:

If that doesn't answer your question, then this might: as far as I know so far, there will be little tactical variety. You have a very limited range of actions during combat. Here's a combat system that creates tactical variety before you even begin to discuss encounters: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3613210/Combat Cards.pdf

That's a list of GURPS combat maneuvers. Every time it's your turn, you declare which maneuver to use, and within that maneuver, what you'd like to do. There's variety, and when you're fighting, the different maneuvers play off of each other to create interesting and dynamic situations that are new and exciting constantly because of the interplay between your choice between the multitude presented to you and the specifics of the encounter. And that's with a very simple set of basic maneuvers but with deep tactical variety nontheless because 1) the maneuvers are so different from each other and 2) each maneuver decides how you can move and how you can defend.

With Wasteland, you're repeating the same basic actions. Fewer actions and those actions are basic = little room for tactics to play off of eacher = almost all tactical decision-making will have to be enforced by level and encounter-design.

As for strategic depth, the part of the character system that relates to strategic decisions with regards to combat is spending points on your main combat skills, perhaps a single secondary one. Compare this to systems where you choose abilities/spells/feats/whatever that relates to combat; you're constantly making strategic choices that affect combat. That creates strategic variety regardless of encounter design.

(obviously, both layers need excellence in encounter design to truely excel, but Wasteland 2 so far doesn't have either and relies very much on encounter and level design)

As @tuluse points out, I don't know anything about itemization which might create both tactical and strategic depth, but then again, I do not expect JA2-levels of variety there.
 
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Brother None

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If that doesn't answer your question, then this might: as far as I know so far, there will be little tactical variety. You have a very limited range of actions during combat. Here's a combat system that creates tactical variety before you even begin to discuss encounters: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3613210/Combat Cards.pdf
I specified cRPG intentionally. I am curious to what standard we're comparing Wasteland 2 to here, or if you're comparing it to a theoretical ideal. It seems to be the latter.
 

Grunker

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If that doesn't answer your question, then this might: as far as I know so far, there will be little tactical variety. You have a very limited range of actions during combat. Here's a combat system that creates tactical variety before you even begin to discuss encounters: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3613210/Combat Cards.pdf
I specified cRPG intentionally. I am curious to what standard we're comparing Wasteland 2 to here, or if you're comparing it to a theoretical ideal. It seems to be the latter.

Is this the part where I go "Infinity Engine" and you and others spend the next five pages ranting about how awful RTwP is without ever commenting on the actual matter we discussed (which is the amount of tactical and strategical options offered)?

Well, let's hold off that one for a minute if we can. Instead one might say: Jagged Alliance 2, Wizardry 8, Temple of Elemental Evil, Realms of Arkania, GoldBox, KotOR, the NWNs, Dragon Age, Tactics Ogre, Might & Magic. Hell, even games I would accuse of lacking severely in these departments like Final Fantasy or Age of Decadence (the latter not even being a party-based game). Those are just off the top of my head. Betrayal of Krondor? Darklands? Fuck, even Arcanum, broken as it is, has tons of strategic and tactical depth, it was crushed by technical and balance issues more than anything.

I could list plenty of tactical strategy games as well. I'm not striving for some kind of tactical idealism here, I'm just saying that a game with tactical options of attack and move and strategic choices of skill points in gun or melee won't be likely to have strategic or tactical depth. Unless of course, your level and encounter design abuse the fuck out of the basic mechanics you do have.

Note that I'm not calling any of the above good games (in fact quite are few are bad due to technical issues, encounter design and such), what I'm saying each has more strategic options and more tactical choices in combat than what we've seen from WL2 so far. The example I gave you from GURPS is pretty darned fucking simple and completely possible to implement in a computer environment as well, so I'm not sure why you consider it a "theoretical ideal"?
 
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EDIT: This post came out arrogant as fuck, that wasn't the intention. I'm just tired of writing the same post again and again and again. Sorry @Jim the Dinosaur

No problem chief.

The stats are wildly differentiated - the best way to build anything, brute force guy or academic guy, is to pump intelligence for the skill points.

True enough, which is why it seems a good move on W2's part to (apparently) split it into Expertise and Intelligence.

The game uses percentile die rolls for no obvious reason where a 3d6 bell curve roll would serve it much better due to the average spread.

Doesn't matter much either way when it comes to a crpg with savescumming potential. Fallout 2 went the smart route by drastically cutting down on FO1's skill rolls and if W2 has any sense it'll remove them altogether. The only element that should involve an RNG is THC and that has to be linear anyway (edit: actually, that's not true, you can also have a dropping curve with higher THC's becoming progressively harder, but a bell curve seems a bit silly; how does GURPS do that actually?).

you call the character system "simplistic". Why? Compared to what?

Even AD&D has much more complexity than simply seven stats + a set of skills (with a couple of level-1 only perks and then a perk each few levels). Compared to GURPS or even most other P&P systems it is shallow and simplistic. Even World of Darkness - favoured for simplicity and ease of use - is more complex than SPECIAL (though also much, MUCH easier to use, because there aren't 50 different computations - one for each special action within the system).

That's why I specified that I considered it one of the better crpg systems. Every attribute has a systemic advantage that applies to most builds. Traits, excluding Gifted, which is effectively a difficulty slider, and the jokey ones, provide some nice extra customization options (base damage vs. critical chance, firing speed vs. aimed shots, etc.). There should have been more potentially useful ones, and ideally they should have split them up a la GURPS into advantages and disadvantages, but it's better than nothing at all. Ditto for perks: any additional player customization options beyond skill point increases at level up are welcome. The skills themselves, even when there were only 8 or so really viable ones at any point in time still offer a lot more choice on level up than most other crpg systems. Compare that to the AD&D crpg character system in the BG's, with auto 18 18 18 3 3 3 on start up and watching THACO go down each level and I think SPECIAL holds up very favorably.

But let me ask you: what advantages does SPECIAL have? What can it do that another system can't do much, much better? What's the point of it? What strengths do you perceive it has?

Besides the character system, localized hits (far more important than the aimed shots themselves) and criticals, different types of DT+DR for armor, ammunition with armor, damage and to hit modifiers. All this together makes SPECIAL a better system to use as a basis than most crpg systems as far as I can tell. But that's why I asked, because I haven't played a terribly big lot of them and there might be some hidden gems of crpg systems out there I haven't found, but as long as the alternative is mainly BG's AD&D, SPECIAL holds up just fine.

Still doesn't mean that you should use it as a basis like W2 does (or not strictly as a basis, whatever).
 
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Excidium

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@Grunker stop harvesting my brofists

Compare that to the AD&D crpg character system in the BG's, with auto 18 18 18 3 3 3 on start up and watching THACO go down each level and I think SPECIAL holds up very favorably.
Well it's a bad rush job of a system versus a poor implementation of a tabletop one (Even though BG is probably one of the best out there). Which is why CRPG systems make for some p. low standards, as they have only come in those two sizes as far as I've seen.

To elaborate, BG doesn't have as much character development as Fallout because the non-statistical benefits of leveling up weren't implemented in the adaptation of AD&D. Fighters don't just get more fighty for example. They get to lead mercenary companies, they get servants, they get castles, they conquer lands and become nobles. Druids often have to compete with other druids as they level up and grow on the ranks of the druidic circles which increases their obligations and the influence they command. And so on...
 
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Oesophagus

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I'm just saying that a game with tactical options of attack and move and strategic choices of skill points in gun or melee won't be likely to have strategic or tactical depth. Unless of course, your level and encounter design abuse the fuck out of the basic mechanics you do have.

Well consider this: let's assume that encounters will have more variables, i.e. terrain, your party and enemy positioning, height and cover. Let's add to that the quipment you have, which should be of a wide range I believe. This is on top of your stats. Now let's assume you have one or two extra NPCs with you with their own personalities, who don't have to stick to your tactics. And then there's the tactics the enemy use, if any. I think the complexity will be sufficient for W2, which after all is not aiming at being a tactical strategy, but a squad based cRPG.

Well it's a bad rush job of a system versus a poor implementation of a tabletop one (Even though BG is probably one of the best out there). Which is why CRPG systems make for some p. low standards, as they have only come in those two sizes as far as I've seen.

There was a lot of redundancy in the IE games. Why wouldn't you dump wis/int/cha as a warrior, if not for larping reasons?
 
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@Grunker stop harvesting my brofists

Compare that to the AD&D crpg character system in the BG's, with auto 18 18 18 3 3 3 on start up and watching THACO go down each level and I think SPECIAL holds up very favorably.
Well it's a bad rush job of a system versus a poor implementation of a tabletop one (Even though BG is probably one of the best out there). Which is why CRPG systems make for some p. low standards, as they have only come in those two sizes as far as I've seen.

Sure, which was my point too. All these nostalgic incline games end up being a bit underwhelming because of it. You'd think there should be some kind of innovation tru thug crpg's can put up against the wave of AAA innovashun.
 

Oesophagus

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Because AD&D is not meant as a system where you can fiddle stats around like IE alllows.

Well, the alternative is having ToEE, where you can roll as much a you like anyway. The only solution to this I can think of is having a hidden counter and the game calling you a pussy if you roll more than 10 times
 
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Excidium

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The alternative is to man the fuck up and keep with what you get. The game is designed for balanced characters.

I only reroll to get OP stats in BG games because the companions already have some p. broken stats anyway and the protagonist oughta be better. :M
 
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Lilura

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There was a lot of redundancy in the IE games. Why wouldn't you dump wis/int/cha as a warrior, if not for larping reasons?

Stat checks in dialogue? Admittedly there aren't many if we don't count PS:T but BG series did have a few (I can think of one based on int). There should have been lots more, but Bioware.

There were probably saving throw bonuses based on wis/int that were not implemented, as well. I know the con ones were for short demis but i think that's it.
 

Roguey

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Stat checks in dialogue? Admittedly there aren't many if we don't count PS:T but BG series did have a few (I can think of one based on int). There should have been lots more, but Bioware.
Making a character less effective in combat just to see some additional dialogue is strange to me.

There were probably saving throw bonuses based on wis/int that were not implemented, as well. I know the con ones were for short demis but i think that's it.
Wisdom is supposed to add magic defense, yes. No point in getting high int or cha unless it's important to your class though.
 
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Sure, which was my point too. All these nostalgic incline games end up being a bit underwhelming because of it.

Well, it might also be that if you know a game inside out and played it 7 times over, it's not that much fun anymore

You could also read some dostoyevski or go out on da mean streets and bust out some PUA kaufman-style. The sky's the limit man.
 
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Lilura

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Making a character less effective in combat just to see some additional dialogue is strange to me.

Strange to me, too.

I think PS:T is the only IE where you might sacrifice some initial physical stats to make sure wis/int/cha are reasonable for stat checks which aren't just about dialogue but also quest resolution. but it's really easy to thug out TNO physically, anyway...
 

Rake

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Stat checks in dialogue? Admittedly there aren't many if we don't count PS:T but BG series did have a few (I can think of one based on int). There should have been lots more, but Bioware.
Making a character less effective in combat just to see some additional dialogue is strange to me.
And missing content and dialogue just to be good at combat is strange to me. What's your point? That's the whole point of C&C, isn't it?
 

Commissar Draco

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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
What happened to Knight Class from BG2? Havent seen it in any DnD game released after it and Paladin being forced to be always Lawful Stupid and goody two shoes is not valid replacement when you want to play with warrior with brain and social skills class. (which is required when leading a party BTW)
 
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Commisioner Draco post: 2820016 said:
What happened to Knight Class from BG2? Havent seen it in any DnD game released after it and Paladin being forced to be always Lawful Stupid and goody two shoes is not valid replacement when you want to play with warrior with brain and social skills class. (which is required when leading a party BTW)

Why can't I be a corrupt lying scheming whoring Palladin? Look at all the shit the church does with raping young boys. Most frustrating enforced LARPing in cRPGs ever.
 

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