Development Info Wasteland 3 Fig Update #22: Building the Everest - From Concept to Design

[Lacrymas]

I suddenly feel the need to defend myself. It's not that TNO and Deionarra are Shakespeare material in the sense of the mastery over poetic forms or language, but in the way their "love story" unfolds as an idea. Romeo and Juliet's is cliche, even Shakespeare himself said that in A Midsummer Night's Dream where he parodies R&J. The context of it is as straightforward as they come, a copy of a copy of a copy, going all the way back to Ovid's Pyramus and Thysbe. Gaming needs its little triumphs and we should acknowledge them.

 

[MRY]

I was just being glib.

 

[Lacrymas]

I know, but people might take what I've said out of context and misinterpret it :p

 

[Lurker King]

This is deniable, and in fact I deny it. It was clear to me that the developers cared intensely about TTON. I've worked on a lot of games over the years, and while it is certainly true that there have been people I worked with who were dismissive of some parts of the game (story in particular, certain aspects of polish and presentation in others), I never really encountered anyone on the development side who didn't care.

I know that they think they cared, but they cared enough? The passion for game development is something that is shown by your understanding of the medium in your game, not your words. They ignored a bunch of basic features that should be in a PS:T sucessor. Features that most posters here would know without even batting an eye. Either that or they are completely stupid. I don’t believe that they are completely stupid, so…

Today, for a variety of reasons, I don't think it's as easy to have a game made primarily by obsessed, often brilliant, polymaths. Companies like Riot have the resources to attract that kind of people (I know because one of the founders, now VP of Design, is an old friend of mine and tried to recruit me*), but most don’t.

What is not easy is finding a developer who is willing to take a risk for making these kind of games anymore. They are part to blame, because they assumed that culture is something that has a life of its own. It is not. It is something that should be nourished. Vault Dweller found most of his team on the internet. Brilliant guys like Oscar, a mathematician that got hooked by his ideas. It is possible, but we need to recreate the conditions for this kind of culture with our support and different mentality. It seems that most people can't do that because they are overwhelmed by the conventional wisdom or by what most people think. They just accepted that this is a fact written in stone. Period. In many ways, it is easier to make complex cRPGs now than in the past.

Once you're a grown up with a wife and kids and more perspective on life, those hours -- and to some degree that passion -- are harder to justify. Indeed, even the physical exertion of working non-stop is harder. Maybe this is what you mean by not caring, I guess, in which case maybe you're right. But to me it's not a matter of "not caring," it's just a matter of adding things into your life that necessarily take priority over making games.

But why is that different than saying that cRPGs is stupid teenager power-fantasy? Would you expect that a biologist, a painter or a mathematician would have less interest in their work during the height of their creative faculties because they have kids? It seems they can adjust these other interests with their career, but in gaming things get so much worse. Maybe it’s a lack of pride in their craft and disillusion?

 

[Lacrymas]

Numanuma is obviously suffering from many problems, not only the mind-boggling writing. The many, many cut stretch goals and the overall lack of polish attest to this. Something ran out, either money or time, or even care, but probably money. Numanuma is an outright terrible game, though, some things show an obvious lack of mastery in this medium which aren't related to money or put in time. Making a good game won't make your wife or kids disappear and it is a full-time job, you have to put in these 8, or however many, hours in it, regardless of any other priorities you imagine you have, to get paid, so you might as well do it right. Numanuma doesn't have the excuse of "but it's popular so they did something right, many people liked it and it made shameful amounts of cash" like AAA games do, it's simply a failure.

 

[MRY]

The passion for game development is something that is shown by your understanding of the medium in your game, not your words. They ignored a bunch of basic features that should be in a PS:T sucessor. Features that most posters here would know without even batting an eye.

This seems circular. If low quality is proof of lack of caring, then obviously anything that is low quality is the product of a lack of care. But having been in the room (a couple times) and on many emails, the notion that there were obviously necessary features that were not included because people "didn't care" is simply false unless, again, "lack of care" is defined as "lack of will care to achieve things the way I wished they were achieved," in which case it's tautological.

What is not easy is finding a developer who is willing to take a risk for making these kind of games anymore. They are part to blame, because they assumed that culture is something that has a life of its own. It is not. It is something that should be nourished. Vault Dweller found most of his team on the internet. Brilliant guys like Oscar, a mathematician that got hooked by his ideas. It is possible, but we need to recreate the conditions for this kind of culture with our support and different mentality. It seems that most people can't do that because they are overwhelmed by the conventional wisdom or by what most people think. They just accepted that this is a fact written in stone. Period. In many ways, it is easier to make complex cRPGs now than in the past.

As I've said before, it is very hard to scale these things up because the same traits that make people excellent on a small scale often make them liabilities on a larger scale. (Take Cleve.)

But why is that different than saying that cRPGs is stupid teenager power-fantasy? Would you expect that a biologist, a painter or a mathematician would have less interest in their work during the height of their creative faculties because they have kids? It seems they can adjust these other interests with their career, but in gaming things get so much worse. Maybe it’s a lack of pride in their craft and disillusion?

It is generally the case that a younger person can put in longer hours and devote more focus to their job. This seems so obviously true, I'm not even sure why we're debating it. There's a similar willful blindness/naivete in Lacrymas's claim that "you have to put in these 8, or however many, hours in it, regardless of any other priorities you imagine you have, to get paid, so you might as well do it right"; anyone who has juggled a difficult job with other life demands knows that you are constantly making compromises in every direction and engaging in triage. The life that Avellone led in making PS:T was obviously imbalanced (as he himself would say); most people wouldn't do that unless they put little value on the things outside of work. When you're young, that's not so bad; when you're older, unless you're a weird loner, it is bad. "If you care about games everything else in life is secondary because you might as well make games the right way" is just dumb.

Anyway, some fields are able to keep more senior people working extremely hard, either by offering increased inducements (as in the practice of law) or by keeping employees at subsistence until they are physically unable to go on (as in menial jobs). In other jobs, sheer quantity of work becomes less important in light of insight or talent (as, I think, in biology, painting, and math, though I'm not exactly great at any of those). I'm not sure that a similar incentive structure can exist in games -- certainly it seems not to exist, regardless of whether you look at one-man indie shops like Spiderweb Software, relatively big companies like Obsidian, or giant companies like EA. When you're young, and the novel bloom of making a game is still upon you, you can bring to bear time and energies that you can't when you age out of it.

As for why new, young developers might not be as good, I would again point to the simultaneous dilution and aggregation of talent: a few big companies suck talent into positions where they don't do much good, and other talent is spread too thin among the rest. And talented young developers seem more drawn to other genres than complex RPGs.

 

[Lurker King]

It is generally the case that a younger person can put in longer hours and devote more focus to their job. This seems so obviously true, I'm not even sure why we're debating it.

But experienced developers have more knowledge and understanding of the ins and outs of the process, so it evens out. Just compare AoD development process with DR or The New World. Experience makes a huge difference and can easily compensate for the supposed lack of energy.

 

[Lacrymas]

It is generally the case that a younger person can put in longer hours and devote more focus to their job. This seems so obviously true, I'm not even sure why we're debating it. There's a similar willful blindness/naivete in Lacrymas's claim that "you have to put in these 8, or however many, hours in it, regardless of any other priorities you imagine you have, to get paid, so you might as well do it right"; anyone who has juggled a difficult job with other life demands knows that you are constantly making compromises in every direction and engaging in triage.

The triage is juggling those 8 hours with the priorities you imagine you have. You have to put in these hours, unless you don't want to get paid, of course. The priority is those hours and you juggle your life around them, you are the one being naive if you think the wife and kids (they are allegorical for whatever else) are more important in that case in a realistic sense. It doesn't matter whether you "want to spend more time with them". Game devs are as much wage slaves as the rest of the people working in cubicle farms. Unless you are saying you are going to be paid even if you don't put in the hours? I'd like to work in that company if that's the case, but I'd like my job, so why wouldn't I.

 

[MRY]

How you put in the 8 hours is extremely variable. Since you say you're in a workplace, I'd figure you would know that.

 

[Kev Inkline]

But why is that different than saying that cRPGs is stupid teenager power-fantasy? Would you expect that a biologist, a painter or a mathematician would have less interest in their work during the height of their creative faculties because they have kids? It seems they can adjust these other interests with their career

You know, I had this quote in my mind, "mathematics is a young man's game", and I tried to look up some references to back it up and refute you, and I run to this article:

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/features/are-older-academics-past-their-productive-peak

which, if I got the big picture down through a quick read, actually indicates the it's the other way around, and rather corroborates what you say.

However, the funny part, one of the interviewees: Gary Thomas is professor of inclusion and diversity at the University of Birmingham.

 

[Lacrymas]

How you put in the 8 hours is extremely variable. Since you say you're in a workplace, I'd figure you would know that.

Doesn't matter how or when you put them, as long as you do it, soooo? Also, when have I said I'm in a workplace? You know what I do for work atm and that's done from home. I have worked, however, for some months for 12 hour night shifts and that wasn't variable at all. I had to be there for those straight 12 hours. Not that it matters for this discussion.

 

[Lurker King]

You know, I had this quote in my mind, "mathematics is a young man's game", and I tried to look up some references to back it up and refute you

It is a cretin myth that made many brilliant mathematicians abandon research too early. Andrew Willis proved Fermat with 42, but couldn't receive the Fields Medal because they only award younger people.

 

[Lurker King]

The triage is juggling those 8 hours with the priorities you imagine you have. You have to put in these hours, unless you don't want to get paid, of course. The priority is those hours and you juggle your life around them, you are the one being naive if you think the wife and kids (they are allegorical for whatever else) are more important in that case in a realistic sense. It doesn't matter whether you "want to spend more time with them". Game devs are as much wage slaves as the rest of the people working in cubicle farms. Unless you are saying you are going to be paid even if you don't put in the hours? I'd like to work in that company if that's the case, but I'd like my job, so why wouldn't I.

The idea that you may have other priorities sounds like pure mediocrity to me, unless you have serious problem at home. Your work is just as important as your family. The fact that MRY is trying to defend inXile commitment with tooth and nail but couldn't put himself to play the game says more than any argument I could come up with.

 

[Iznaliu]

The idea that you may have other priorities sounds like pure mediocrity to me, unless you have serious problem at home. Your work is just as important as your family. The fact that MRY is trying to defend inXile commitment with tooth and nail but couldn't put himself to play the game says more than any argument I could come up with.

So developers should just be slaves to players?

 

[DeepOcean]

Another possibility is that they had a very ambitious view for the the game and things didn't turn out good, they made mistakes on production or programming and when they finaly realized, they had burn the budget and had to salvage something and this salvaged something was NumaNuma. I'm not trying to excuse them as there are much better games made with a fraction of the budget, they fuck it up but it isn't the first time a game is a complete fail at production and developers salvage a half assed mess as the final product.

The greatest thing of a hobby project when it actually deliver is that the guy can keep working and working until making it right while a professional project can't keep commitement because you can't convince dozens of people with different goals to keep working for free to you when the project runs out of money, at that point releasing something will be a priority even if it isn't all that good. The bad side of hobby development is that it can take forever for a game to be released.

If Grimoire was made by a full team of people, Cleve would have to pull some millions from his Neanderthaal wallet and assume commitments with those people, I don't think they would be that keen to work 20 years for him.

 

[l3loodAngel]

No one considers Fallout or PS:T Shakespeare material

Lies.

The "love story" between TNO and Daionarra is much better than some classics, it's especially better than Romeo and Juliet *shudder*.

:D

What is undeniable is that most of these developers clearly don’t give a fuck anymore.

This is deniable, and in fact I deny it. It was clear to me that the developers cared intensely about TTON. I've worked on a lot of games over the years, and while it is certainly true that there have been people I worked with who were dismissive of some parts of the game (story in particular, certain aspects of polish and presentation in others), I never really encountered anyone on the development side who didn't care. And at inXile, I didn't encounter any dismissiveness at all, except maybe a certain level of exasperation at my word-level neuroses. There's really no reason to be in game dev unless you care about games, unless you've pigeonholed yourself with a degree from one of those for-profit game development colleges or something.

this explanation that they are incompetent because being cRPG writer is a shitty job, we are talking about writers receiving a good pay in comparison to the industry and a creative line of work where you can make your own hours. Shitty job is breaking your back on a coal mine or working on a fabric for 10 cents a day. People longer hours for less in much stressful jobs and deliver what is expected from them. So don’t give me that crap that is a shitty job. It's not.

I haven't followed the thread closely enough, and you and I have talked at length about this topic, but my view isn't that it's a bad job -- obviously, looked at across all jobs around the world, it's a pretty fun job that pays pretty well. It's just that it's a tricky job to do well, and talented people are hard to attract into it for a variety of reasons. Those people are then spread pretty thin across an ever-growing industry. In days of yore, young men who loved fantasy and science fiction, were on the autism spectrum, and were into computers were relatively more plentiful compared to the overall quantity of game development jobs. Today, for a variety of reasons, I don't think it's as easy to have a game made primarily by obsessed, often brilliant, polymaths. Companies like Riot have the resources to attract that kind of people (I know because one of the founders, now VP of Design, is an old friend of mine and tried to recruit me*), but most don't.

[EDIT: * This is not to say I am a brilliant polymath, only to say that I have some idea of the resources Riot has and their recruitment philosophy.]

I do think that you are basically right that one reason why the same group of developers might make worse games today than they made in the past (I'm accepting your premise, but I haven't played TTON or WL2 or PoE, so I can't agree or disagree) is that "they have many other interests." In my 20s, I could devote 5 hours a day to game development easily, even while doing pretty well for myself as a full-time law student. In college I could put in even more time. Similarly, when Avellone was a young man working on PS:T, my understanding is that he was putting in 14-hour days -- essentially the "full time" of the job, plus the 5-6 hours of "surplus" time in which I was doing my hobbyist development. Once you're a grown up with a wife and kids and more perspective on life, those hours -- and to some degree that passion -- are harder to justify. Indeed, even the physical exertion of working non-stop is harder. Maybe this is what you mean by not caring, I guess, in which case maybe you're right. But to me it's not a matter of "not caring," it's just a matter of adding things into your life that necessarily take priority over making games.

A story definitely worth its weight in words. If Riot employs most talented people in the industry we are fucking doomed as a species. When I think of Riot the word talent does not come up in my mind. I understand that families take time, but did kids spoil the main enemy in the beginning of TTON or made the decision to remove combat? No? What a surprise...

*you are only brilliant at muddying the waters and sophism. Not that taking blame would be manly or anything.

 

[sardonix]

Another possibility is that they just suck, like, this is so uninspired, its the old cliche quest of "guy try to create a utopia in a closed environment but things go wrong" done a million times, but this time in a fucking hotel, because that's what everyone wants in a post apocalyptic rpg, being trapped in a fucking hotel. And the cherry on top are the references to The Shining, one of the most referenced movies/books of all time.

 

[Jaesun]

The Passion, and energy to create something new and innovative is gone.

Someday some group of people can conceivably re-create such Passion and Energy and focus into a game, but I don't see that happening for many many years.

 

[l3loodAngel]

 

[MRY]

The idea that you may have other priorities sounds like pure mediocrity to me, unless you have serious problem at home. Your work is just as important as your family.

Nope. Especially nope if your work is making computer games. Of course the two are often aligned -- most of the time work is a way of helping your family because someone who is engaged with his job is generally a better person, can provide materially, and sets an example for his kids.

The fact that MRY is trying to defend inXile commitment with tooth and nail

You have a very low standard for "with tooth and nail." "By hook and crook" seems more apropos.

If Riot employs most talented people in the industry we are fucking doomed as a species.

Dat's capital, as Marx said.

*you are only brilliant at muddying the waters and sophism.

I'm a lawyer. What did you expect?

Not that taking blame would be manly or anything.

I've repeatedly taken the blame for any criticism of my writing in TTON. Standing by when people malign your friends and colleagues is not "taking the blame," it's being a coward, a bad friend and colleague, and -- when you know the maligning to be false -- an enemy of the truth. I'm not saying TTON is good (I can't, having not played it), and I'm not saying the people who made it are geniuses (I'm far too biased in their favor to opine on that). I'm only saying that the various flavors of "error comes from evil" that have been directed at inXile ("they didn't care" is only the latest iteration) are dumb and false. The harder reality to face is that sometimes hardworking, well-meaning, talented, likable people make things that you don't like. You can hate the error without hating the errer.

I understand that families take time, but did kids spoil the main enemy in the beginning of TTON or made the decision to remove combat? No? What a surprise...

Who suggested that kids caused those things? I was just explaining why it might be that older developers are unable to produce games like the ones when they're younger. Avellone doesn't even have kids. But he spends much more time on family, friends, girlfriend, fitness, etc. than he did back in PS:T days. A talented person pouring all his energy into his job can produce things that he can't when his energy is directed at things other than his job as well. From the standpoint of a consumer of RPGs, I certainly wouldn't object to Power Word Write-an-RPG being used on Avellone, but generally speaking people are better off with more balanced lives, so I don't begrudge him or anyone else their decision not to be monomaniacs. Even Cleve spent a lot of time meme-ing rather than making.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

I'm not saying TTON is good (I can't, having not played it)

Any plans to remedy that?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Remedy TTON not being good?
I don't think one man could do it.

 

[MRY]

I'm not saying TTON is good (I can't, having not played it)

Any plans to remedy that?

No.

My window for playing computer games by myself is super small -- basically the wee hours of the night -- and then only games I've played by myself in the past five years were Gemini Rue (recently) because a Primordia fan bought it for me and asked me to play it and AOD because I had been fanboying it since '05 and wanted to be able to write an article praising it. Since both took less than 10 hours, it was feasible, though each took me several days to complete. Taking on a long RPG is basically a hopeless endeavor, and I'd need to update my computer to be able to play it, anyway. (I was able to run the game enough to test my sections of it, but it was closer to seconds-per-frame than frames-per-second.) Nowadays the limited time I spend playing computer games is spent playing adventure games with my kids. RPGs like TTON don't really work for 7 and 5 year olds.

If I did suddenly get a bunch of time to play games, I would almost certainly spend it playing games in the genres I hope to develop in, which do not include large RPGs like TTON, which I view as an impossible undertaking given my resources. For instance, I'd like to play The Long Journey Home, which sounds really great, notwithstanding the lousy reception it has gotten.

 

[Lurker King]

The Passion, and energy to create something new and innovative is gone.

Someday some group of people can conceivably re-create such Passion and Energy and focus into a game, but I don't see that happening for many many years.

It is gone in these veterans of the industry. Fuck them. We have Vince, Styg, Joe, etc. We need new blood.

 

[l3loodAngel]

If Riot employs most talented people in the industry we are fucking doomed as a species.

Dat's capital, as Marx said.

Marx said a lot of things and some of them stand to this day so don't drag him into conversation you don't understand.

*you are only brilliant at muddying the waters and sophism.

I'm a lawyer. What did you expect?

Nothing I guess.

Not that taking blame would be manly or anything.

I've repeatedly taken the blame for any criticism of my writing in TTON. Standing by when people malign your friends and colleagues is not "taking the blame," it's being a coward, a bad friend and colleague, and -- when you know the maligning to be false -- an enemy of the truth. I'm not saying TTON is good (I can't, having not played it), and I'm not saying the people who made it are geniuses (I'm far too biased in their favor to opine on that). I'm only saying that the various flavors of "error comes from evil" that have been directed at inXile ("they didn't care" is only the latest iteration) are dumb and false. The harder reality to face is that sometimes hardworking, well-meaning, talented, likable people make things that you don't like. You can hate the error without hating the errer.

First of all what the hell are you doing in a conversation about a game you have not played? Secondly people have the right to be angry, because they paid for a different product than they got for reasons not known to me. In other words developers knew what people wanted, but made multiple design decisions to suit their believes and agenda to make a game only they wanted. Are they evil? I guess no, but I can't say anything positive about them either. Now let the homage parade continue.

I understand that families take time, but did kids spoil the main enemy in the beginning of TTON or made the decision to remove combat? No? What a surprise...

Who suggested that kids caused those things? I was just explaining why it might be that older developers are unable to produce games like the ones when they're younger. Avellone doesn't even have kids. But he spends much more time on family, friends, girlfriend, fitness, etc. than he did back in PS:T days. A talented person pouring all his energy into his job can produce things that he can't when his energy is directed at things other than his job as well. From the standpoint of a consumer of RPGs, I certainly wouldn't object to Power Word Write-an-RPG being used on Avellone, but generally speaking people are better off with more balanced lives, so I don't begrudge him or anyone else their decision not to be monomaniacs. Even Cleve spent a lot of time meme-ing rather than making.

You have said that when people were young they could spare more time. Something like 14 hours. Now people have wifes, children and they can't spare that much time on development. Ergo they are the reason the developer performance suffers. And then I said: Are children guilty of stupid design decisions? Blaming fitness also makes as much sense.

I am not against balanced life or believe that people in gaming industry should work like in North Korea camps. However, I think I do think that some talent level should be mandatory as is desire to give the customers what they paid for.