What caused the death of turn based combat rpgs?

[Andhaira]

The last released was ToEE, and even that was released after a long, long spell (before that I think it was only fallout 2 and wizardry 8 that were turnbased).

So what gives here, why the death of turnbased games? Is it really lack of demand or is it simply a percieved lack of demand? I admit wizardry 8 and ToEE didn't sell all that well but there were other reasons for that. Wizardry was too obscure at that point and had a stupid story (dark savant, cosmic forge...WTF) while ToEE was plagued with bugs.

What is is with developer aversion to turn base games?

 

[Wyrmlord]

It was Ruins Of Myth Drannor.

Turn-based combat is something highly favoured across other genres, especially with games like Silent Storm, Sid Meier's Pirates!, Jagged Alliance 2,.etc.

But a game like RoMD, which is so buggy, and bad in almost every regard, is assumed to represent a failure of a turn-based combat RPG. There is and always has been a market for TB combat, but certain TB combat RPGs were just plain bad. But it was not TB combat so much as all the all-round problems of a game like RoMD itself.

 

[Higher Game]

The Japanese still make turn based "RPGs" that do well. Roguelikes and old games supply all the turn based action the hardcore crowd wants. The Western developers are left with the console kidz.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

Two reasons that I can see.

Compromised, bug filled, flawed entrants in the TB realm over the past 10 years.

Sales figures for FPS, RTS etc gaining the attention of publishers and developers alike.

Everybody wants to catch the Express train, and nobody cares about focusing on the smaller markets.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

 

[SuicideBunny]

colonel mustard, in the kitchen, with a rope.

Compromised, bug filled, flawed entrants in the TB realm over the past 10 years.

as opposed to the compromised, bug filled, flawed entrants in the rt realm over the past 10 years.

 

[SCO]

 

[Jim Cojones]

Turn-based combat is something highly favoured across other genres, especially with games like Silent Storm, Sid Meier's Pirates!, Jagged Alliance 2,.etc.

 

[DemonKing]

It's not like non-turn based CRPGs have actually been flooding the market...

What publishers don't understand is that good games will usually sell, regardless of whether they are turn-based or not. Of course, if all the turn-based games released are buggy and incomplete then naturally they won't sell.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

You should ask one of them Obsidian Devs why they think TB can't be next-gen enough, they must have some reasons after all why they prefer their games to be RTwP or RT.
Market Research?

 

[RK47]

emulating success = safer.

nwn2
kotor2
masseffect-alphaprotocol
fallout3-fallout3-X????

 

[JarlFrank]

Turn-based combat is something highly favoured across other genres, especially with games like Silent Storm, Sid Meier's Pirates!, Jagged Alliance 2,.etc.

Tactical combat simulator =/= Turnbased combat RPG

Those games have RPG elements but they're tactical squad based combat games. Not RPGs.

 

[Avu]

AndhairaX caused it.

 

[Wyrmlord]

 

[Qwinn]

"Ruins of Myth Drannor"... was that that second Pool of Radiance remake?

If so... god, yeah, that was -really- awful. It felt like it took like half an hour for every critter in the combat to move, even if you set it at the fastest setting. God help you if there were zombies. I didn't even finish the first major area before shelving it with such disdain that I never found it again.

And yes, probably one of the buggiest games I ever bought.

Qwinn

 

[Wyrmlord]

Wizardry was too obscure at that point and had a stupid story (dark savant, cosmic forge...WTF)

Bah, you just can't appreciate David Bradley's fine writing. :wink:

 

[Qwinn]

LMAO... dear Lord, that's claw-your-eyes-out horrible.

I played through that whole game, too (when it first came out), and I didn't remember the writing being that bad... wow.

I'd still probably play it again, though. My memories of that game were pretty good. I seem to remember the walls in a dungeon in Wizardry as just green monochrome lines, though... is that really what it looked like? Is that a sequel to the first? Or can someone remember what game I'm thinking of? I think I was playing it on an Apple IIe.

Qwinn

 

[Wyrmlord]

This is the sixth Wizardry game - made by completely different people, and not those who made the earlier Apple games.

The earlier Apple games had monochrome with lines.

The problem with that writing is that you have to pay close attention to it, in order to understand what you have to do advance the game. And yet, it's so terribly written, I just ignore all of it, and just romp around the dungeon. I don't care about advancing the game if it involves reading such awful writing.

 

[CarnivalBizarre]

Well, Turned based games make for slower gameplay, something that people in general don't like.

And since turn based systems was the choice when stuff where to hard to do real time, it feels natural that they should dissapear when technology get better. Problem is that there is no real time system out there that contains 1/10 of the tactical options of a good TB system.

 

[Andhaira]

Chess is and has been turnbased. Its that way because its the BETTER option, and no matter how advanced tech gets, cchess will stay turnbased.

There is a lesson in that, that devsshould learn.

 

[Qwinn]

Chess is and has been turnbased. Its that way because its the BETTER option, and no matter how advanced tech gets, cchess will stay turnbased.

Clearly you've never raided in Karazhan...

http://www.wowwiki.com/Chess_event

Qwinn

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

colonel mustard, in the kitchen, with a rope.

Compromised, bug filled, flawed entrants in the TB realm over the past 10 years.

as opposed to the compromised, bug filled, flawed entrants in the rt realm over the past 10 years.

I only have to mention one title: Diablo. The official end of Turn based roleplaying games, in the big leagues, as we know it. Fast, gore filled, shallow and no requirement for deep thought. Unfortunately for the TB competition at the time, Fallout 1 + 2, Diablo sold many, many more units. Publishers took note of this fact back then, and we have seen the outcome playing out ever since.

Every other turn based iteration around this time was rubbish, or niche with little to no advertising effort whatsoever. And since Fallout was not fantasy (that always sells better than Sci-fi), it only looked worse in the figures.

To top it all off, Baldurs Gate was released not long afterwards. Quicker than turn based, DnD fantasy based, dialogue options by the truckload (not that they made much difference)...who needs that boring, slow turn based system?

Something I have never read on here, but may have been mentioned, is this; Fallout does not exactly have a brilliant combat system. It is good enough, and is no slouch, but it does not really show the excellent points of TB combat, namely those shown in games like Silent Storm and Jagged Alliance. You cannot have all of those options in RT, not without the whole thing breaking down and becoming virtually unmanageable.

Where are the RPG's with these options? Where had they gone? The Gold box games, and other RPG's even earlier than these had systems much better than Fallout. They should have been pushed to the forefront of gaming, instead of rotting away and forgotten, while complete idiots created rubbish like Myth Drannor.

Unfortunately, Stormfront (POR2 MD), and even Troika, dropped the ball. These guys were the last gasp to see if these systems could be rejuvenated and they failed. Arcanum, forced to cater to both RT and TB by publisher. TOEE, stupidly attempted in too short a time frame, and tandem with Vampire Bloodlines. TOEE was definately the last gasp I think.

I thought Silent Storm would make things sunny again, but it strangely dropped off the planet and has not been heard of since.

 

[Andhaira]

I never played silent storm. How is it? How does it compare to jagged alliance 2?

 

[Qwinn]

The Gold box games, and other RPG's even earlier than these had systems much better than Fallout.

I enjoyed the Goldbox games (replayed 'em recently, in fact, and kicked the last fight in Pools of Darkness's ass on default difficulty, *flex*), but I wouldn't go as far as that. I think Fallout's TB combat was at least equal to that of the Goldbox games. The whole "action point" mechanic alone made it more interesting and tactical than "where can I place my fireball so it doesn't hit my guys in the 3 squares of each corner of the screen".

Qwinn

 

[sheek]

You should ask one of them Obsidian Devs why they think TB can't be next-gen enough, they must have some reasons after all why they prefer their games to be RTwP or RT.
Market Research?

Yes, I'd like to know about the results of that too.

Well, Turned based games make for slower gameplay, something that people in general don't like.

And since turn based systems was the choice when stuff where to hard to do real time, it feels natural that they should dissapear when technology get better. Problem is that there is no real time system out there that contains 1/10 of the tactical options of a good TB system.

How was Real-Time ever "harder to do"? There have always been real time games. All the platformers, flight-sims, etc of the earliest games were real-time back in the 1980s.

How was Wolfenstein 3D (1992) functionally different to Quake V or whatever they're producing nowadays? I don't see it. The graphics look nicer, I just don't see any fundamental gameplay change due to advances in technology.