What do you think about AoD?

[Lonely Vazdru]

Teleporting was inspired by ToEE's Hommlet. The quests weren't that bad, but the running around between NPCs made replaying Hommlet unbearable.

Interesting, but this was introduced way after the game was released. By that time every player knew the cursed place by heart and so, didn't mind the teleporting. Playing Hommlet the first time was not that bad, it's doing it again that was.
In the case of a first play, I wouldn't want to "explore" a new city that way. I understand the need for it when replaying, but making it optional wouldn't ruin the first experience. And Lord knows how much that one counts.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Teleporting was inspired by ToEE's Hommlet. The quests weren't that bad, but the running around between NPCs made replaying Hommlet unbearable.

Interesting, but this was introduced way after the game was released. By that time every player knew the cursed place by heart and so, didn't mind the teleporting.

Sorry, what was introduced? Teleporting?

In the case of a first play, I wouldn't want to "explore" a new city that way. I understand the need for it when replaying, but making it optional wouldn't ruin the first experience. And Lord knows how much that one counts.

That's a good point.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Sorry, what was introduced? Teleporting?

Yes, it came with Co8 mods IIRC.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Didn't know that. I played ToEE when it was released 8-9 times (trying different parties), but didn't touch it since. Some parties were weak, so they need that early level that Hommlet gives you, so I replayed Hommlet many times, wishing that there was some way to skip the walking.

 

[zeitgeist]

Since walking from A to B is uneventful in 99% of RPGs, why not skip it, thus letting you focus on interaction with NPCs (which is the focus of town quests), not walking between them?

This is only so when the gameworld is a bland backdrop with nothing meaningful to do than interact with NPCs at point A and B, nowhere to explore and nothing interesting to see, with most NPCs serving as nothing more than quest/dialogue option dispensers.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I replayed Hommlet many times, wishing that there was some way to skip the walking.

Walking around Hommlet was indeed a chore, even the first time around, the lack of anything to do else than fixing peasants stuff and romances was pretty bad. Cities like Athkatla were more interesting the first time, the quests were different and there was the occasional fight. But even then, I used the cheat keys to teleport around after a couple of replays. So the teleport feature is indeed welcome when replaying.
But for the first(s) play(s), since your game seems more on the Athkatla "diverse quests + fights" side than the "boring undermensch fed-ex quests + no fighting" Hommlet side, it would probably be nicer to move around and discover the city the hard way for those who like this sort of things.

 

[Vault Dweller]

This is only so in 99% of RPGs, unless you count random barrels full of treasure or random evil-doers waiting to attack you. The only games that did a superb job there were the Betrayal games or sandbox games.

 

[Excidium]

Verisimilitude. You don't teleport in real life, you can't skip over the uninteresting parts of your day.

What sort of flying cretin are you? Nobody plays videogames to have boring parts you idiotic fucker, they're supposed to be fun, you want a life simulator, GO OUT AND HAVE A LIFE.

Now, you can dislike the teleporting for an array of different reasons, but this here takes the cake as the most retarded shit I ever heard, I even expected it to be something said by DraQ.

It's shit like this that makes me want to get a cabin in the woods and never see another human being again.

Never change, deso.

 

[Raghar]

The problem with AP was that C&C weren't integrated into the game. They existed outside of your missions and choices you made affected very little beyond "red shirt, green shirt". It was a combat game with stealth elements and 'glorious' boss fights, and some choices during the cutscenes.

They were some real ones. For example with who are you doing the last mission depended on who did you asked/pissed the least. Or when you piss off Heck, he would snitch you in Hong kong.

No reaction. Since we had teleporting from day one, there was no need to add it. Thus, the resources were spent on more quests.

That's funny. It's actually easier to create continual world, all stuff can stay in synch because it's in one file.

Joy of exploration, seeing the sights, listening to the music. I love dawdling in areas with great music in games, finding excuses to visit them again and again.

I walked in Skyrim, aka no fast travel. It was one of better Skyrim's features. Reasonably looking nature, nice sights, bandits.

 

[villain of the story]

Why? Isn't repetitive crap, well, crap?

Hard to say, there is a fine line between where stuff stops being fun and starts being repetitive crap. In Fallout, running between A & B & A again wasn't an issue. At least not for me. Even if it was an issue for some people, it ought to be a much milder case than some of the prime examples such as Arcanum, NWN and whatnot. There was stuff to be found, people to be talked to etc.

For instance, there is a remarkable amount of backtracking in FNV but as someone who pukes on backtracking, it hasn't bothered me much in FNV because there is adventure to be had in the process of backtracking and sometimes it's new stuff too. There are game systems that can exist on their own and support any number of things in combination during those long walks. And most importantly, it's optional. You can opt for fast travel to almost anywhere. That is good design. The same shit wasn't fun in Fallout 3 and Oblivion because those games were retarded from ground up. It wasn't fun in Morrowind because CLIFFRACERS!, although the Silt Striders helped a lot. It's similar to FNV in Skyrim.

I think it could be said that "repetitive crap" isn't an inherent quality of "repetition" itself. Repetition can be good as long as it's not forced and provides content and experience.

But even knowing what AoD is, why can't I feel fine about that? I don't know, maybe I expected more unexpected tie-ins to the quests via things you would discover on your own. Maybe I expected to be a character that could exist as a character that could accomplish shit outside the visual novella sessions (dialogues). It's hard to tackle.

 

[Emily]

I honestly think, when you start a new game, you should be able to pick betwen teleporting and no teleporting. can't see harm in that, some people like to walk, some dont.
I dont think it would be much of work either.

 

[hiver]

As for the issue of fast traveling teleportation : It isnt the issue of having it or not - at all
Its just whether it should be under the players control - as an option to choose, or not.
It is the fact that it is not a choice that is actually most galling and irritating here. Set up like this it actually has an unintended effect of turning attention from the story and its quests and gameplay to frustration about design decisions that are not necessary - in this sense of it being mandatory and forced.

Help me understand it then.

If you're doing a city quest, then talking to NPCs is mandatory. You aren't forced to talk to all of them and are often given choices there, but you do have to talk to some of them. Since walking from A to B is uneventful in 99% of RPGs, why not skip it, thus letting you focus on interaction with NPCs (which is the focus of town quests), not walking between them? Sure, why could have made it completely optional, but why? What does the other option add?

You are teleported only within a quest. Between quests you can walk around all you want and explore. There is no teleporting in the ruins either, since the focus there is interaction with the environment not with NPCs. I do agree that the implementation is a bit jarring, which is probably the main issue here. I liked Castanova's suggestion and already asked Nick to see if you can do it.

Let me first say that i dont agree with infinitron first two interpretations - at all. And the last one too.
that being said...


I dont know how much better i can explain it from what i already wrote about it.
The problem is that it is forced.
There is no hidden reason behind that. That IS the reason.

Just the fact that it is forced on the player creates a negative reaction to it.

I would also agree with LV assesment:

I understand the need for it when replaying, but making it optional wouldn't ruin the first experience. And Lord knows how much that one counts.

That is actually a secondary negative effect that arises from it.
There is also an issue of teleportation not being implemented in the best ways in certain quests - which you mostly fixed by making it optional in those situations in R2 version, based on reactions and feedback you got about specific quests where teleporting led the player into trouble.


You need to ease people into it all... which you dont see clearly yourself, being so invested into creating it all and building it for years and knowing it inside out. (which also seeps into your resistance to make combat a bit easier at the very start of the Demo, although it can be argued that demos combat difficulty at large is there to prepare the players for the full game - if you need to. This is also not a question of combat being entirely hard of completely easy)

People will opt to just walk somewhere more often when they start, but then as the game itself is designed for replayability, when they repeat those sections they will start to use it more and more.And be thankful for it.
Of course.
But that doesnt mean they should be forced into it.

We all like having some options to choose from in games... and this one certainly falls into that category.


-edit-
Also, establishing shots would be a nice addition - but those require some work to do.

 

[Infinitron]

This is only so in 99% of RPGs, unless you count random barrels full of treasure or random evil-doers waiting to attack you. The only games that did a superb job there were the Betrayal games or sandbox games.

What's wrong with a little bit of treasure and combat, anyway? These are RPG staples. And who says they have to be "random"? You make it sound like every RPG without teleportation is fucking Diablo (which, ironically, allows teleportation via Town Portal)

 

[zeitgeist]

I honestly think, when you start a new game, you should be able to pick betwen teleporting and no teleporting. can't see harm in that, some people like to walk, some dont.
I dont think it would be much of work either.

No teleporting is pointless if there's no fully realized world to not teleport through. The ability to control the character in the gameworld at all should be removed instead.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What's wrong with a little bit of treasure and combat, anyway? These are RPG staples. And who says they have to be "random"? You make it sound like every RPG without teleportation is fucking Diablo (which, ironically, allows teleportation via Town Portal)

Nothing's wrong with it, but should every RPG have a little bit of treasure and combat behind every corner? Is there no room for something slightly different?

In most RPG the only exploring you do in towns is look for loot and combat. You run around like a tard checking all barrels and boxes and hoping that some thugs, filled with more loot, step out from the shadows and try to fuck with you, which will be a big mistake. It always is.

 

[Excidium]

Yeah, those are p. retarded cRPG tropes.

 

[Infinitron]

What's wrong with a little bit of treasure and combat, anyway? These are RPG staples. And who says they have to be "random"? You make it sound like every RPG without teleportation is fucking Diablo (which, ironically, allows teleportation via Town Portal)

Nothing's wrong with it, but should every RPG have a little bit of treasure and combat behind every corner? Is there no room for something slightly different?

In most RPG the only exploring you do in towns is look for loot and combat. You run around like a tard checking all barrels and boxes and hoping that some thugs, filled with more loot, step out from the shadows and try to fuck with you, which will be a big mistake. It always is.

That's a consequence of making a "town-centric" RPG. In most games with AOD-style towns - ie, little combat and loot, just a quest hub for the most part - the majority of the gameplay takes place in dungeons or in the wild. That's where you get to really do shit.

But in a game which takes place mostly in towns, you need those tropes. Actually, the transformation of RPGs from "dungeon-centric" to "town-centric" is something that is little commented on. I guess Ultima started this trend.

 

[hiver]

dont you guys see how great it would be to make it optional?

Then infinitron can walk around to his heart content ... and then when he starts complaining about there not being enough loot and random fighting encounters we can all enjoy posting :
"well why dont you just teleport ... you have that OPTION, y know...?" and add many smileys.

 

[Infinitron]

dont you guys see how great it would be to make it optional?

Then infinitron can walk around to his heart content ... and then when he starts complaining about there not being enough loot and random fighting encounters we can all enjoy posting :
"well why dont you just teleport ... you have that OPTION, y know...?" and add many smileys.

FYI, I'm not personally that offended by the forced teleportation, but I'm advocating for those who are.

 

[almondblight]

Yeah I hate all those cliches and tropes of RPGs like looti and levels,

To be honest, having XP, leveling, and tons of loot is starting to annoy me. The only thing that they really seem to provide most of the time is that MMORPG feeling of progress by seeing number go up.

 

[Marsal]

I don't even... You're not even trolling, are you?

There is no need for trolling, I can simply talk about a proper design, and about theory of computer games, and you are trolling yourself.

You don't even know what trolling means, do you?

Yes, graphics really are superficial, you niggerfaggot. Combat, character system, lack of player agency... everything is more important than graphics (especially since AoD has decent graphics already). Now, stop muddying the water and STFU about Krater already.

Krater had a world that was accessible early, and you could go everywhere without level scaling. You would be ripped to pieces, but there is no level scaling.

This is a non sequitur. Are you a paid marketing agent for Krater?

It's "Dwarf Fortress" and you need to get some glasses.

It's fortress that has been made by Dwarves, thus it's Dwarven Fortress. It's not my problem when author used grammatically incorrect name.

Oh, the irony!

 

[20 Eyes]

Yeah I hate all those cliches and tropes of RPGs like loot

I know you're being sarcastic, but holy fuck do I hate the idea of 'loot' as it's applied in CRPG games. Over 4 books, Frodo and Bilbo find one 'phat lootz' sword between the two of them. And somehow characters in many RPGs are changing weapons multiple times in a single dungeon floor.

 

[Tigranes]

Yes, but that's because they only leveled up like once. It was a low-level adventure.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yeah I hate all those cliches and tropes of RPGs like looti and levels, and swords and combat. I support VD's brave decision to make an RPG about a teleporting diplomat in robes zipping around the world at whim, or not, depending on whether his stats are high enough to avoid it.

Killing and looting are an important RPG aspect and nobody's arguing that. However, there is a huge difference between getting a well deserved reward or fighting a battle that means something and killing trash mobs that are there for no reason at all.

 

[Infinitron]

Yeah I hate all those cliches and tropes of RPGs like looti and levels, and swords and combat. I support VD's brave decision to make an RPG about a teleporting diplomat in robes zipping around the world at whim, or not, depending on whether his stats are high enough to avoid it.

Killing and looting are an important RPG aspect and nobody's arguing that. However, there is a huge difference between getting a well deserved reward or fighting a battle that means something and killing trash mobs that are there for no reason at all.

Again with the reduction-to-Diablo. What if the trash mobs do have a reason to be there? Who says you can't do classic RPG tropes in a fun, believable way? But no, let's amputate instead of improve, just like Bioware.