What's in Jeff Vogel's Pocket?

[Davaris]

I agree. People don't buy games based on low price, they buy them based on if they enjoy them and if they want the company to continue making them. Case in point if a company made games of Fallout 1 quality and put one out every year, I'd gladly pay 100 dollars for each game.

 

[Andhaira]

Spidweb games also require less sstem resources. Not everyone can afford to run Oblivion, even today. (I can't, for example)

 

[WanderingThrough2]

Never mind that probably a lot more work was put in a Spiderweb game than in any recent block-buster

This is a joke, right?

 

[Thrasher]

In gameplay related areas, yes, and as the article states, in graphics, no.

Overall probably less, since blockbusters put most of the resources into graphics and other presentation elements.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

In gamepolay related areas, yes

Mass Effect had five writers, an editor, dozens of designers, and dozens of QA staff, none of whom were doing "graphics." It was in production for years. Vogel knocks off a game a year with a staff of two or three. At most, then, we're talking three man-years per project, and I know his staff doesn't kill themselves like corporate teams do. Even if you credit him with all of the work on the prior games -- so we say that 10 years of work went into the latest game, maybe 20 man-years -- that is still vastly fewer man-years of work than went into Mass Effect.

Whatever the merits/demerits of blockbuster games, the suggestion that less work goes into them is just idioitic. Maybe less heart (though I doubt it), but certainly vastly more work.

 

[Thrasher]

Focus on writing and level designers is not what I would call gameplay.

 

[Davaris]

Whatever the merits/demerits of blockbuster games, the suggestion that less work goes into them is just idioitic. Maybe less heart (though I doubt it), but certainly vastly more work.

I read that Fallout 3 had 15 people working on the scripting. 15!

If they had so many people working on it, why did it feel so empty?

 

[Thrasher]

(uninspired and shallow) X 1000 can still be a lot of scripting work.

But my guess is that they weren't nearly as efficient as Jeff.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

Focus on writing and level designers is not what I would call gameplay.

Err, what do you think Vogel spends most of his time doing when he makes a new Geneforge game? (Laying out maps, writing dialogue, etc.) In any event, ME had seven technical designers and three system designers, and numerous vanilla "designers" (as distinct from "level artists"). Seriously, there is no possible way, by any measure, that Vogel spends more time on designing gameplay for a game than the staff for a AAA title spends on it. No way at all. The argument is just stupid.

 

[Thrasher]

No - you're missing my point completely.

I'd say laying out the factions, the implications from joining them, the plot lines, and the various choices and consequences.

Also the gameplay mechanics and character development stuff.

That's what I was referring to. Not all the fluff you are talking about.

Jeff's writing doesn't have to concern itself with voiceactiing and talent, and his mapping doesn't have fancy 3d graphics level design either. All that fluff is NOT gameplay.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

No - you're missing my point completely.

So just to be precisely clear, your argument is that in making Geneforge V, Jeff Vogel spent more time "laying out the factions, the implications from joining them, the plot lines, and the various choices and consequences," "gameplay mechanics and character development" than the entire Bioware staff spent on those things in making Mass Effect?

Do you honestly believe that?

 

[Davaris]

WanderingThrough2:
I think the point Thrasher was trying to make, is while the AAAs spend more man years making their games, they aren't working on the kinds of things that interest a certain minority of gamers.

 

[janjetina]

So just to be precisely clear, your argument is that in making Geneforge V, Jeff Vogel spent more time "laying out the factions, the implications from joining them, the plot lines, and the various choices and consequences," "gameplay mechanics and character development" than the entire Bioware staff spent on those things in making Mass Effect?

Do you honestly believe that?

Since ass effect has no choices and consequences, factions and implications for joining them, gameplay mechanics and character development, it can be concluded that the time spent on the implementation of these features is zero. It can be safely assumed that Vogel spent more time on these features, since his game actually has them.

 

[Thrasher]

^This

The point is that Mass Effect spent tons off money on stupid stuff, and being generally inefficient.

Vogel efficiently focussed on the interesting stuff, and ended up with a much more interesting game for a lot less money.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

"I prefer the feature set of Vogel's games to the feature sets of mainstream blockbusters" != "more work goes into Vogel's games than goes into mainstream blockbusters"

Whether you prefer Geneforge to Mass Effect is purely subjective (I haven't played either, so I'm indifferent); but the original point I was responding to was that more work went into his game, which is an objective claim, and is objectively false. Trying to repackage the claim by saying that work doesn't count if it doesn't go toward features you like is just silly.

 

[Thrasher]

Never said that.

I was making an additional point, get it?

Are you really that dense?

 

[WanderingThrough2]

The original point I was responding to was that more work went into his game, which is an objective claim, and is objectively false. Trying to repackage the claim by saying that work doesn't count if it doesn't go toward features you like is just silly.

Never said that.

Err. . . .

Never mind that probably a lot more work was put in a Spiderweb game than in any recent block-buster

In gameplay related areas, yes

Whatever the merits/demerits of blockbuster games, the suggestion that less work goes into them is just idiotic.

Focus on writing and level designers is not what I would call gameplay. . . . The point is that Mass Effect spent tons off money on stupid stuff, and being generally inefficient.

So to be clear, now you agree with me that FeelTheRads is wrong, and you're just saying that the only way Vogel "works harder" on his game is that he implements features that you like, like factions, rather than features that you don't, like long Bioware dialogues?

 

[Thrasher]

I'm sure Mass Effect developers spent more money on development than Vogel.

My point is that Vogel spent it wisely.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Uh, if more work was done on Mass Effect than on a Spiderweb game then I don't know why it feels like the opposite. More workers would make you believe more work was done, but is it really the case with AAA titles?

Mass Effect had five writers

dozens of designers

Does it show? Maybe those dozens of people worked together less than the handful of people at Spiderweb? How is that possible? Well, because in big companies most of the time and resources are spent patting each other on the back, ass-kissing, vacations and other similar corporate activities.

It was in production for years.

Three years. Same as Arcanum, no? With more people working on it, no? Does that tell you something? It should.

So, yeah, as you'll maybe see for yourself someday, more workers does not equal more work.

 

[Thrasher]

Again, I think that more of the resources were spent on eye an ear candy, rather than the gameplay stuff I referred to.

 

[FeelTheRads]

What the hell... for some reason I thought WanderingThrough2 said it was in production for three years.
So nevermind my comparison with Arcanum... unless Mass Effect actually was in production for three years.