What's in Jeff Vogel's Pocket?

[NiM82]

Recommend this article for those interested in marketing indie games.

It's an interview with Vic Davis (Armageddon Empires). He's got lot of advice, with graphs/stats to back things up.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

judging by geneforge 5, he's at the very least in the process of realizing that.

Is he? Maybe the screenshots don't do it justice, but Geneforge 5 doesn't look much better to me than the prior games. I'm not suggesting that he needs to have BG quality graphics, or 3D graphics, or anything else. It's just that he seems to have no sense of aesthetics or polish. My recollection is that they were just stray black pixel floating around, he has those godawful character portraits that detract, rather than add (how much would it cost to get some hack artist off DeviantArts to draw two dozen? -- I would guess no more than a few hundred bucks), the colors are always bland and boring, he uses the same palette for foreground objects as tiles, so they don't pop out, etc. etc. It's true that the up-front investment in switching over to attractive graphics would be high (since almost everything he uses is recycled), but it would continue to pay out for every derivative game that followed.

Take this screenshot, for example:

You've got the stray black pixels on the top right of those tripod things (what are they? lanterns? chests? tables?), on the pillars, and at the base of the statues; the head of the guy to the south of the prisoner (?) disappears into the cobble stones because it's the same shade of gray and is not outlined, the construct behind the player looks like a jumble of pixels and is not distinguishable as anything in particular, the dirt patches in the field don't match any of the other tiles, and the overall look is drab and boring, except maybe for the crystal stuff around the prisoner. It also look like (though I can't tell), he's picked a particularly displeasing isometric angle.

Compare that to Eschalon, and it's not so much that the Eschalon graphics are better from a technical standpoint (they're just as tilely, just as few colors, just as formulaic), but they're polished:

Every element stands out, and is identifiable. There is a pleasing mix of colors, and of light and darkness. It's not an offense to the eyes.

 

[Vault Dweller]

...despite a rather obvious lack of talent.

?

 

[Gwendo]

Jeff is the only Indie RPG maker I know of that is making a living - so the numbers for other indie RPG devs would get worse from there.

Eschalon made enough of a profit to prompt the team to work on the second part.

The developer of Dwarf Fortress, Tarn Adams, works on his game full-time, every day. Even though it is in alpha and available for free download, he gets enough money from donations to sustain himself - a fact which I find very striking...! How I know this? Well, he has been publicly posting what he gets through donations for ages.

For 2009:

The month itself was okay for a non-release month, but I also paid my taxes for 2008 in February. This was my first year without any steady income from a regular job, so I got to see the full picture this time around without W2s to complicate it. Between the government and Paypal fees, the rate is about 25%, which left my bank account a few thousand down over the year. I still have plenty saved up from my old job, so I'm not going anywhere. Please keep in mind that the numbers below do not incorporate any taxes or fees, though.

February Donations: $1428.62
January Donations: $2099.48
December Donations: $5279.49
November Donations: $1305.10
October Donations: $1868.30

2008:

November Donations: $1305.10
October Donations: $1868.30
September Donations: $1695.48
August Donations: $3101.50
July Donations: $5543.99
June Donations: $1531.09
May Donations: $1943.71
April Donations: $3757.64
March Donations: $1749.50
February Donations: $2844.93
January Donations: $1697.73

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?board=8.0

Amazing, huh? he gets over 1k just from donations each month, while his game is free for download and in alpha. It makes me wonder how many people play Dwarf Fortress... This should fill every indie developer with hope, methinks.

Anyway, I think Vogel really underestimates how much more he could earn by having a more slick presentation of his games. If Avernum would look like Eschalon, he would easily triple or quadruple the number of its sales.

PS. basically, the Eschalon fanbase wants all that which Vogel has been putting in his games (plot, dialogue, factions, c&c) to be added to Eschalon, while some Vogel fans dream of his games having the slick feel of Eschalon... The Eschalon engine should be sold to Vogel, to let him create a true classic :shock:

It's because it's in alpha that he is receiving so many donations... People are enjoying the game, but they really want him to keep developing it, including things they are wishing for. If DF2 was a finished product, I doubt he would receive such steady income.

 

[oldschool]

Recommend this article for those interested in marketing indie games.

It's an interview with Vic Davis (Armageddon Empires). He's got lot of advice, with graphs/stats to back things up.

Thanks for that. Nice article.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

The developer of Dwarf Fortress, Tarn Adams, works on his game full-time, every day. Even though it is in alpha and available for free download, he gets enough money from donations to sustain himself

He took in a little over $28,000 in 2008. On the one hand, it's pretty amazing that people donated that much money to him. On the other hand, that's pretty damned meager -- well below what the average high school graduate makes ($36k), and just about $14/hr (assuming 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year), which is a little over twice the federal minimum wage. Of course he's working for himself/doing what he loves/etc., but so is Vogel and Vogel presumably takes in well over $100k a year between salary and profits.

It's possible that when DF is finally released, it will be a commercially successful product. But there is good reason to be skeptical of that. (Among other things, the design scope keep expanding in a way that will make it impossible to finish and its interface is impenetrable even to very serious gamers, let alone mainstream auidences.)

 

[PorkaMorka]

geneforge 5 doesn't look great or anything, but instead of comparing it with a pretty game like eschalon, try comparing it with other spiderweb software games.

It probably uses the same engine and graphics as avernum 5, but the UI looks far less unprofessional.

http://www.avernum.com/avernum5/images/boattravel.jpg

That's what we've been dealing with for the last 9 of his games. Those portraits... shudder. That UI.... shudder.

I don't need good graphics at all, but I'm still turned off by a game looking completely unprofessional, and (from a few screenshots) geneforge 5 is a big step up in reducing that. Hiring someone to make different portraits would help too.

edit: but yeah my point was to say that I imagine the unprofessional look hurts him even more than the bad graphics, although I'm counting the horrible portraits as more "unprofessional" than "bad graphics", since he could easily use better portraits with no engine changes.

 

[MisterStone]

How the hell could he spend so much cash on artist freelance work and the like and still have such butt ugly tile graphics? Doesn't look like he's getting much for his money here...

He should take a cue from the comic book industry and hire artists from South America or something.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

but yeah my point was to say that I imagine the unprofessional look hurts him even more than the bad graphics, although I'm counting the horrible portraits as more "unprofessional" than "bad graphics", since he could easily use better portraits with no engine changes.

Agreed. It's a red herring to say that the reason why the graphics are so bad is that he can't afford to spend more. (In fact, I remember him rejecting an offer to improve the clawbug graphic in Avernum 4 for free.) Mostly, it's a lack of any sense of art direction. At this point, there's a lot of lock-in problems (like the isometric angle he's picked or the large library of art he's already got) but a lot of improvements could be made if he simply cared enough to make them (like the portraits, the anti-aliasing on some of the sprites, etc.). Part of the reason he probably doesn't care is that his core fans keep telling him that the graphics aren't a problem and that anyone who says otherwise is a philistine.

 

[Davaris]

Tarn Adams:
Amazing, huh? he gets over 1k just from donations each month, while his game is free for download and in alpha. It makes me wonder how many people play Dwarf Fortress... This should fill every indie developer with hope, methinks.

I'm all for the donation or ransom method, as I think the traditional model doesn't work in an international market - the pricing is inflexible for different countries and DRM/piracy is the other factor that is killing sales.

I have heard reports that the donation method hasn't been too successful in the past, so those figures do surprise me. They still aren't enough to support a Spiderweb style game made in the west though. If you are a young single guy living at home, or in a group house that's fine, but in a couple of years he will want more out of life.

If he can get more good months like this:

December Donations: $5279.49

Then he could have a life and hire an artist.

WanderingThrough2:
It's possible that when DF is finally released, it will be a commercially successful product. But there is good reason to be skeptical of that.

I agree. Unless they dumb down the interfaces and "improve" the graphics, I can't see it selling outside its community and as they have been supporting its development, they may expect it to be released free of charge.

asper:
Eschalon made enough of a profit to prompt the team to work on the second part.

I look at Eschalon and the graphics seem too professional to be an Indie game. I am probably wrong on that, but that is my gut feeling when I look at it. I guess their artist can take that as a compliment.

 

[Elwro]

The Eschalon team also paid for a few really nice licensed musical tracks.

 

[Higher Game]

The Eschalon team also paid for a few really nice licensed musical tracks.

Indeed. There's a lot of great art and music out there if one knows where to look. Eschalon in general is very well polished, especially for a first game. It has the potential to become an upper tier series, mentioned in the same breath as Ultima, Might and Magic, Wizardry, and so on. Right now Vogel's stuff is better (mostly due to so much experience and legacy), but Eschalon is such a breath of fresh air and could easily overtake the old master.

 

[Zomg]

It would be nice to move to a country with both a low cost of living and decent internet access if you're going to live as an international techno-beggar/video game artisan.

 

[Davaris]

Recommend this article for those interested in marketing indie games.

It's an interview with Vic Davis (Armageddon Empires). He's got lot of advice, with graphs/stats to back things up.

I'll have to read that one. I remember when he first started out and was asking for advice about buying clicks and views on Google and I told him not to waste time on it, because people are looking for free stuff on search engines. I told him to pay for adds on Board Game Geek and the like and it seems to have started the ball rolling for him.

Vic is another one that has some really nice art. Check out the portraits on the cards in his game.

 

[Elhoim]

It would be nice to move to a country with both a low cost of living and decent internet access if you're going to live as an international techno-beggar/video game artisan.

Yep, that's a very nice idea. 1500 dollars per month gives you a very nice life here.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Same here. Quite frankly, if I could make something similar to what Vogel makes in a year I would be be sitting pretty and extremely happy.

 

[SuicideBunny]

...despite a rather obvious lack of talent.

?

his games are solid and that's it. nothing special or incredibly well done. mediocre coding, writing, and stories. the only outstanding things are the settings.
might be just me, but i think talent comes with way more ambition than polishing solid to death.

 

[Davaris]

It would be nice to move to a country with both a low cost of living and decent internet access if you're going to live as an international techno-beggar/video game artisan.

I read a book a while back where the author talks about how to get that kind of lifestyle. I think it was call 4 hour work week. He travels from country to country, staying for about 6 months and learning the language before moving on to the next country. All of his business is conducted online, so its easy for him to do.

 

[Naked Ninja]

I deeply respect Jeff but even he has admitted he isn't a particularly skilled programmer.

And from the design point, while I think he is a decent writer/world developer, his gameplay design has always struck me as pretty flat and generic. Over 15 years his gameplay systems haven't evolved much, he has only recently started addressing issues like the fact that fighters are boring as all hell and giving them some special abilities to use. Geneforge shows the most inspiration, with the creature mechanics. But still, I expect a bit more from someone with the freedom to control their own design.

 

[BethesdaLove]

It would be nice to move to a country with both a low cost of living and decent internet access if you're going to live as an international techno-beggar/video game artisan.

I read a book a while back where the author talks about how to get that kind of lifestyle. I think it was call 4 hour work week. He travels from country to country, staying for about 6 months and learning the language before moving on to the next country. All of his business is conducted online, so its easy for him to do.

Thats fucked up right there.

 

[Gnidrologist]

It would be nice to move to a country with both a low cost of living and decent internet access if you're going to live as an international techno-beggar/video game artisan.

I read a book a while back where the author talks about how to get that kind of lifestyle. I think it was call 4 hour work week. He travels from country to country, staying for about 6 months and learning the language before moving on to the next country. All of his business is conducted online, so its easy for him to do.

What ''business''. Does he distribute child porn?

 

[Davaris]

>What ''business''. Does he distribute child porn?

Like most self help gurus, he probably makes most of his money selling self help books to unhappy people. :D But seriously, there are lots of ways to make money online, if you are the entrepreneurial type. Whatever you are interested in, you can sell things for it, if there is demand.

The main messages in the book is how to streamline existing businesses, by hiring people and eliminating time wasting work. He also tells you to get rid of possessions that are holding you in one place and gives you advice on how to make the move overseas and stay there. He also says that it can be cheaper living overseas (compared to the USA), even if you stay in first world countries like Japan or Germany. However he did write the book before the financial crisis, so things might have changed.

What the book won't do is help you come up with business ideas (so if you don't have any ideas you are out of luck), but it will point you in the right direction to get inspiration - trade magazines and similar.

Reading the book hasn't changed my life, as I like to stay in one place and my main interest is games - he says that "good" businesses (the type that can give you the kind of freedom he is talking about) must sell goods in the $50-$200 price range and require next to no customer support. So unfortunately, the games business loses on both counts. However if I did get back into making and selling games, I would take his advice on eliminating time wasting and unprofitable work practices.

 

[asper]

Part 2 is up: http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-many-games-i-sell-part-two.html

 

[BethesdaLove]

Slashdot comment (5 insightful)

"I had a look at the article and saw he's selling the game for $28. When you bear in mind it's a game that looks around 15 years old in quality and style (something that's effectively admitted in the article albeit not quite so explicitly) one has to wonder why he thinks people would pay that amount for this:

http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/images ... 1large.gif [spiderwebsoftware.com]

When you could pay the same, or in fact, probably even less nowadays, and get a few year old yet far superior game such as say Neverwinter Nights or Oblivion?"

See how it works?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Same stupid argument. Never mind that probably a lot more work was put in a Spiderweb game than in any recent block-buster, as long as it doesn't have up-to-date graphics it's not worth the price.