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Atlus What's the appeal of Megami Tensei?

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lol, I read some of the plot summaries on the wiki. I knew SMT got blasphemous, but I didn't know it got THAT blasphemous.
It's just gnosticism.
Something to note is that there are three or four Japanese words that get translated simply as "demon," and they don't hold the same meaning as the word in Abrahamic religions.
Well, except the word akuma (悪魔), which is the term used for all the demons in the game, is actually the same word used for demons in Christianity.
While you're probably right in this case given the subject matter, it's a error in reasoning to think that because a word in Japanese is associated with demons in the context of Christianity, that therefore this Christian association will predominate over other associations in a Japanese audience.
 

Bigg Boss

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Daemon just means spirit that is what they meant when they say Demons in SMT/Persona games. Unless you think Archangel Michael is a demon in which case...
 

WhiteShark

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Daemon just means spirit that is what they meant when they say Demons in SMT/Persona games. Unless you think Archangel Michael is a demon in which case...
Daemon, sure. Akuma doesn't. The first character literally means 'evil' and the second 'evil spirit' or 'evil monster'. If the developers had only meant 'spirit', that had been easy enough to express in Japanese. Why they chose to broadly categorize all of them, including the angels, as akuma is beyond me.

While you're probably right in this case given the subject matter, it's a error in reasoning to think that because a word in Japanese is associated with demons in the context of Christianity, that therefore this Christian association will predominate over other associations in a Japanese audience.
It is true that the word predates Christianity as it originally referred to evil spirits that prevent people from pursuing Buddhism, but ever since Christianity came to Japan, it has become synonymous first with satan and then demons in general. If you want to see the associations of the word, just check out the images in the Japanese wikipedia article on 悪魔. All Christian artwork.
 

DJOGamer PT

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Because you can summon devils, and as we know, the youth is satanic and rotten to the core
But you can summon angels as well.
Yeah, """angels""":
AngelDS.jpg

The games still classify them all collectively as demons, though. No, this is not a translation error.
I think the games are referring to the original meaning of word, which had no inherent "moral alignment"
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
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Hmmm, there was a novel that started it all?

I've only played a scant few jrpgs or watched/read a few manga/anime but seems they have this over-powered protagonist thing of self will dominating other spirits a lot. Maybe its just pride. <shrugs>

I'd start with the translated nes/famicom versions first, unless there is a translation of that novel floating around. I'll take an english or subtitled youtube reading as well.

Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei[a] refers to two distinct role-playing video games based on a trilogy of science fantasy novels by Japanese author Aya Nishitani.

Gotta find these novels.
 
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WhiteShark

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Were that the intent, they had transliterated the word daemon directly or used a morally neutral word for 'spirit' instead of using akuma. Akuma is unequivocally bad. Even in modern Japanese translations of the Bible it is the word used to translate 'the devil'.

I searched around on the Japweb to see if anybody had an answer for why they are all referred to collectively as akuma and while I found nothing official, the recurring explanation from fans seems to be this: all the spiritual entities in SMT, even the angels, are generally hostile to humans and thus are collectively classified as akuma. This fits in perfectly with the neutral route, which emphasizes human independence from the akuma, being favored across the series. To quote some guy from twitter who I think sums it up well:
zerospeed999 said:
女神転生の世界観は「人の世が神に仕える天使と悪魔との戦争」に巻き込まれ、無力な人間はその世界で悲惨な選択を迫られるというもの。
その世界の中では神も悪魔も天使もすべて「人心を惑わす悪魔」に過ぎない。

[my translation]

The worldview of Megami Tensei is one where the world of man is caught up in the war between the angels who serve God and the demons, and in that world powerless humans are pressed with painful decisions. In that world gods, demons, and angels -- all are nothing more than demons who confuse the hearts of men.

Hmmm, there was a novel that started it all?
Yup, the book series is called Digital Devil Story and thus, as an adaptation, the first Megami Tensei game was actually titled Digital Devil Story Megami Tensei. That Devil is transliterated from English, so in Japanese it's just Debiru. More evidence that the creators were not attempting to reference the morally-neutral Greek word daemon.
 

KeighnMcDeath

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If this would have been released in USA during the height of the Satanic Panic 1, oh there would probably been NES butnings of many games by fanatic Christians,
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
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All music that isn't hymns?
All TV/radio?
All books but the bible?

We fucking sinners are gonna burn in our hell with all the music, smut, games, hookers, parties, earthly things, etc.

We gonna burn...
:evilcodex:

But heaven... oh the horror
LsSPS2x.jpg

HGnUtNg.jpg

6daG1BY.jpg


Oh the fucking horror of praising GOD ETERNALLY!
M3OLqZJ.jpg
 
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Nutmeg

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Vatnik Wumao
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Seen in this view it's not an expression of humanism but of Japanism.
Partially. Japanese are very atheist and hate religion - they think it's all just scammers - so it's not just love of humanity. At least all the Japanese I know which is basically my wife and her family lol. I am in Japan right now fwiw. There is also sadly not much anti-Western sentiment here any more. Japan sees itself as part of the West now.
 
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Bigg Boss

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Daemon just means spirit that is what they meant when they say Demons in SMT/Persona games. Unless you think Archangel Michael is a demon in which case...
Daemon, sure. Akuma doesn't. The first character literally means 'evil' and the second 'evil spirit' or 'evil monster'. If the developers had only meant 'spirit', that had been easy enough to express in Japanese. Why they chose to broadly categorize all of them, including the angels, as akuma is beyond me.

While you're probably right in this case given the subject matter, it's a error in reasoning to think that because a word in Japanese is associated with demons in the context of Christianity, that therefore this Christian association will predominate over other associations in a Japanese audience.
It is true that the word predates Christianity as it originally referred to evil spirits that prevent people from pursuing Buddhism, but ever since Christianity came to Japan, it has become synonymous first with satan and then demons in general. If you want to see the associations of the word, just check out the images in the Japanese wikipedia article on 悪魔. All Christian artwork.
Because the word demon is cool to them. Japs are all about what is cool. They do not care about the lore.
 
Self-Ejected

Dadd

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That Japanese word is based on Chinese characters and each Chinese character has meanings so they put together two Chinese characters whose meanings together roughly described the Christian concept of demons when it was introduced to them is my hypothesis
 

TheImplodingVoice

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Great presentation, incredible soundtrack, a more darker and more "mature" tone, and a nice gameplay loop (especially if you like collecting demons and min/maxing them). The first games are kinda rough around the edges, and I'd advise you to start with Strange Journey (Redux) instead, and then SMTIV. The best games of the series.
Soul Hackers 1 was also fantastic. Can't believe how bad they fucked up Souls Hackers 2, they could have just called it Persona 6
 

Morpheus Kitami

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translation of that novel floating around.
It's been around for a while.
Partially. Japanese are very atheist and hate religion - they think it's all just scammers - so it's not just love of humanity. At least all the Japanese I know which is basically my wife and her family lol. I am in Japan right now fwiw. There is also sadly not much anti-Western sentiment here any more. Japan sees itself as part of the West now.
Doesn't help that practically every time religion comes up, it's from some weird-ass cult. Really hard to believe in the goodness of religion when every time it comes up in the news it's from some dude who thinks he's Jesus Christ and Buddha ordering people to give him all their money and then gas a subway. IIRC, even native religions had some big scandal with money laundering.
 

KeighnMcDeath

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I trimmed my religio opinion. Detracts from the core topic of the game based on the novel. I still feel the later games are more VN + school dating sim over DC or blobber. The pokemon aesthetic was rather genius imho. Same reason i liked geneforge.
 

Derringer

Prophet
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Jan 28, 2020
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I think this series is a little too satanic for my liking.
Christianity and 'satanism' are both hands of the same financial system you live under. The devs are Japanese people that utilized Christian involvement with Japan as theming for their earlier games, someone blogged about it a few years back. It's 'Shintoist', hence why you'd think it comes off as satanist.
https://eirikrjs.blogspot.com/2017/06/jjcat.html
 
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Did anyone read all of that?
So, this was an interesting 4 hours of reading. Thank you for the fascinating history on how colonialism and Christianity tried to steal Japanese culture and claim it as it's own. Overall, I enjoyed reading it, but I find your argument dubious and poorly made. Essentially, my counter argument is thus: Just because they're utilizing JJCAT as an occult background doesn't mean that they're anti-Semitic at all. The SMTII version of Yahweh is the Old Testament one - which you yourself assert wasn't involved with JJCAT or anti-semitic in anyway, but the SMT3 - IVA Yahweh is clearly derivative of, and quite explicitly, the New Testament version of Yahweh. The Christian-Islamic Yahweh of the Abrahamic faiths.

I'll respond to the most relevant paragraphs that I found objectionable:

"But aside from the changes to the game's (or the series', really) entire ancient backstory, the biggest retcon introduced by this quest has to do with the Kunitsu curse's approximate 100-year sealing. Since the Raidou games take place in the early 1930s, the passage of about 100 years would unleash the curse around 2030, canonically after the events of SMT1 and during the lead-up to SMT2. Surely no coincidence, this otherwise completely arbitrary number means it's intended to provide an alternate explanation for why the Kunitsu betrayed the Amatsu with YHVH in that game, as discussed prior. But as explained above, this retcon is completely unnecessary because mythology already has a built-in reason why the Kunitsu might act that way, given the chance. Additionally, read between the lines of this curse and you'll find that it exonerates the Kunitsu with an insanity defense, characterizing them as essentially good little deities who only experienced a lapse of rationality because their brethren cavorted with a foreign pantheon to gain the upper hand. Ahhhh, that good ol' Maniacs Team nationalism and xenophobia!"

This is an entirely dubious claim. Raidou is working for Yahweh and keeping the peace in Japan. He's stopping the use of and violence made by Chaos deities and even faces off against deities with Japanese motifs and backgrounds for the sake of helping Yahweh preserve Japan's safety. Sure, it follows the divide that you speak of, but he's still protecting Japanese people via taking down dangerous Japanese deities.

http://imgur.com/32qUBhi

In short, Mem Aleph is the Mother Earth principle or the primordial goddess of the Goddess movement, yet given a form that corresponds to JJCAT. Her profile also fits Kaneko's Nocturne-era comment about YHVH being the source of everything as well, if her Hebrew name in relation to the dissemination of the "ma" particle around the world is anything to go by. However, just by being Chaotic and female, she is intrinsically YHVH's inverse even as she is also, by JJCAT reckoning, his "bunrei."

This one is totally contradicted within the main plot of Strange Journey itself, the Mother Goddesses created the universe, world, and the first humans in SJ. Yahweh came after and deposed them and sealed them away. Mem Aleph is the real creator and is distinctly stated to precede Yahweh. So, you are totally wrong in this passage.

1/3
4 hours

1 out of 3

and the op just basically ignored him lmao.
 

perfectslumbers

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 24, 2021
Messages
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The appeal is an extremely unique and dark setting (at least extremely unique in RPG's,) that's filled with whacky interpretations of mythological creatures + some of the better JRPG combat. I think the games suffer heavily from terrible dungeon design and poor writing, but there's not any other games out there with the same concept and the same focus on metaphysics and religion. Personally I think Nocturne and MAYBE Strange Journey are the only mainline games worth playing, but even the many shitty SMT games are still appealing to me since there's nothing else like them.
 

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