Decline When did decline start to you?

[samuraigaiden]

When did game designers start being told they had to tone things down and make games "aiming for the lowest common denominator"? Pagan was released in 1994 and was a PC exclusive. It predates the Xbox, DLC, all the stuff most people here seem to associate with decline. And yet, it's one of the most egregious examples of decline in game design. It also happens to be the first Ultima entirely designed after Origin Systems was acquired in 1992 by EA, by then already a publicly traded company. Garriott later admitted the game's development was heavily influenced by stockholders pressures.

 

[AdamReith]

How could anyone be simultaneously smart enough to design and implement a decent game and stupid enough to allow another party to reap the profits.

 

[Turuko]

shareholders are not limited to public companies

 

[janior]

never

 

[Citizen]

Was there ever incline or it was declining forever, just more or less steep sometime?

 

[Catacombs]

shareholders are not limited to public companies

They're terrible regardless.

 

[samuraigaiden]

Was there ever incline or it was declining forever, just more or less steep sometime?

80s was all incline

First half of the 90s was mostly incline

Second half of the 90s incline and decline were happening simultaneously in different areas of the industry

2000s was all out decline, especially after 2005

2010s incline and decline again happening simultaneously, almost exclusively thanks to indies and Kickstarter

EDIT: Let me rephrase this last one.

2010s brought unprecedented, extreme decline in the traditional gaming industry and resurgence of some incline exclusively thanks to independent game developers

 

[DalekFlay]

That was not the situation, however. Companies (or rather, their paymasters) quickly stopped funding "A" style games to pour all their resources into trying to compete in the exploding "B" market. As a result, the supply of new A-style games dried up mostly overnight, and were replaced by a deluge of B-style games made by developers who had no expertise in making them. Quake, Doom, C&C and Myst were not the problem (well, Myst... maybe); their shitty knockoffs were. A few of these knockoffs were actually good in their own right, but most of them were rubbish. It was a major step down.

Yeah man, they didn't make many RTS or CRPG games in the late 90s. You nailed it.

 

[Cryomancer]

The decline of RPG's are just one part of the decline.

• -> The death of the RTS genre and completely lack of TB strategy games
• -> FPS all about everyone running with SMG in close quarters arena, with random respawn to make the game more akin to a slot machine than a shooter
• -> RPG’s that instead of living breathing fictional world simulator, are a boring unimersive work with insane degree of ludonarrative dissonance
• -> Racing games without even a cockpit view and with car upgrades tied to a lootbox system
• -> Remakes with 80% less features than the original(WC3 reforged)

Consoles are the biggest reason to the decline. Just compare the most famous 90s PC RPG(Baldur's Gate) with the most famous PS1 RPG(FF VII), in one you have a closest to P&P experience with tons of classes, choices and character to choose. On another, you are forced into he role of a androgynous teenager with a oversized sword that defeats the SCI-FI empire using a fast swinging blade and even dress like a woman in a particular part...

edit : For those who doesn’t know what is ludonarrative dissonance

 

[Grunker]

with the release of pong

 

[Terenty]

With the release of PS3 and Xbox360. Before that great games had been produced for all platforms. After that, PC became an afterthought and graphics became the main focus instead of gameplay.

 

[DalekFlay]

With the release of PS3 and Xbox360. Before that great games had been produced for all platforms. After that, PC became an afterthought and graphics became the main focus instead of gameplay.

Repeating myself, but that started with the Xbox, really. Deus Ex Invisible War was mentioned before as a big early example. Halo and Morrowind made FPS/Western RPGs into big console genres. That's when the PC gaming decline began, no matter what anyone thinks about other aspects of game quality. I'd argue it got a lot better in the very late 360/early PS4 era though, with games like Dishonored and Deus Ex: Human Revolution, though it's still obviously not as good as it was when those genres were largely PC exclusive.

 

[Catacombs]

Xbox360

Call of Duty and Mountain Dew® Amp® Game Fuel®

 

[Daedalos]

If you want to talk incline then 1997 and 2007 were the two best years for gaming that I can think of based on number of games that I enjoyed.

1997 gave us:
Dungeon Keeper
Final Fantasy VII (come at me bro)
Turok: Dinosaur Hunter
X-Wing vs TIE Fighter
Shadow Warrior
Blood
MDK
Ultima Online
Fallout
The Curse of Monkey Island
Interstate '76


2007 Gave us:
Jade Empire
Sonic and the Secret Rings (Fuck you I like Sonic and no I'm not a faggot furry)
Custom Robo Arena
Pokemon Diamond (PvP with friends was fun, don't hate)
Persona 3
Bioshock
Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions
Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII
Portal
Team Fortress 2
Half-Life 2: Episode Two
Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn
Crysis
NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams

You're perfectly right about 1997, it's a year with, objectively and quantitatively, the biggest amount of classic titles in pretty much every genre (although rather barren for pure crpgs).

But damn, you dropped the ball with that second part

I beg to differ.
1998 is where it's at.

1998 had:

Grim Fandango
Fallout 2
Starcraft
Starcraft Brood War
Resident Evil 2
Baldur's Gate
Thief: The Dark Project
Starsiege Tribes
Half-Life 1
Unreal
Commandos 1: Behind Enemy Lines
Metal Gear Solid

1997 had:

Fallout 1
Diablo 1
Dungeon Keeper
Blood
MDK
Carmageddon
GoldenEye 007
Quake 2
Worms 2
Monkey Island 3
Age of Empires
Total Annihilation
Grand Theft Auto
Jedi Knight II

BOTH years are incredible in terms of legends of time old school classic timeless games, but I think 1998 wins out from the sheer quality of hallmark games. 1998 had more genre defining classic games imo

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Even based on that list I prefer 1997, but 1997 also had:

Myth, SM Gettysburg, Panzer General 2, Pacific General, Hexen 2, Shadow Warrior, Oddworld, Broken Sword 2, Dark reign, Incubation, Blade runner, Close combat 2, X-Wing vs Tie Fighter, Netstorm

And that's without going into "second tier" games, like Mageslayer/Take no prisoners, KKND, Theme Hospital, Dark colony, Postal, Beasts and Bumpkins, Final liberation, LBA2, Turok, Sub Culture etc.

And we've probably still forgot about some.

Even actual second tier games, like, I don't know, Jack Orlando, Nightmare creatures, Realms of haunting or Nuclear Strike are p gud. I mean, ffs, the biggish releases from that year that I consider a disappointment, like LoL2 or Lords of magic are object of cult and circlejerking retro-reviews nowadays

People might have favorite games released in different years and argue based on that, but 1997 just crushes everything with sheer volume.

 

[octavius]

What year is best depends on what genres you like.
If like me you mostly play FPS, CRPG and TBS 1998 was better than 1997, and 1999 and 2000 better than 1998 again.
If you really like RTS I guess 1997 was the best year.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

I disagree on FPS and TBS. RTS is where it comes the closest actually, because 1998 has Myth 2, Dark Omen and Starcraft. Both years were kinda barren for crpgs, but I have to give this one to 1998, even though I'm not the biggest fan of first BG to say the least.

1999 is a very strong competition and it has multiple titles that I would definitely put in my top 10 evar (JA2, AoE2, HoMM3), but imo 1997 still wins objectively variety- and volume-wise.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

Actually Codex's top 100 RPGs allows to build a pretty solid graph of Incline/Decline years.

I wonder if this was done before?

 

[Daze]

I was exactly doing that but then i realized that it's autistic, opened a beer and played Kingdom Come.

 

[Daze]

1996 decline
1997 incline
1998 incline
1999 incline
2000 incline
2001 incline
2002 incline
2003 ToEE is brilliant but decline starts
2004 VtMB is brilliant but decline
2005 decline
2006 decline
2007 decline
2008 decline
2009 KotC is brilliant but still decline
2010 decline
2011 decline
2012 decline
2013 decline
2014 decline
2015 incline
2016 decline
2017 incline
2018 incline
2019 decline

 

[Verylittlefishes]

VtmB is brilliant but decline

2019 decline

Anyway, the dynamic is clear! Science!

 

[Daze]

One Underrail: Expedition doesn't make a summer.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

fuck you both https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/rpg-codex-goty-2019-results-cool-graphs.131603/

 

[octavius]

Actually Codex's top 100 RPGs allows to build a pretty solid graph of Incline/Decline years.

I wonder if this was done before?

It was done for the 2014 Top 50 list. It confirmed my views on which years were incline:

 

[DalekFlay]

That chart lines up pretty fucking well with my preferences, and with the idea Xbox brought in the decline before devs learned to do a little better later on.