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Grand Strategy Where is Victoria III?

Discussion in 'Strategy and Simulation' started by IDtenT, Feb 2, 2021.

  1. Axioms Learned

    Axioms
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    I tried it again and mana is mostly gone. Still a few too many time based resources but not mana at least. However there is a lot going on that is poorly explained and very uninteractive. Also it has mission trees. Maybe a 6-7/10 vs the previous 3-4/10.
     
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  2. Theodora Arcane Patron

    Theodora
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    There are mission trees, but my experience is they are much more open-ended and dynamic than the kinda thing you have in eg. EU4 or HOI4.

    The generic/cultural mission trees are more like a more elaborate version of EU3 missions than the railroading of the aforementioned.

    Also, if you're struggling to understand, IR 2.0 has the nested tooltip system first implemented in CK3. You can use it to learn a lot.
     
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  3. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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    Did you grok the differences between assimilating vs integrating cultures? Or how to pass the laws and reforms you want in harmony with the current party + important families as to not accrue tyranny/corruption/civil war? Did you grok how to manage Pop migration/promotion to best optimize your production (trade goods, food, research, etc)?

    Managing those three things (culture, politics, production) are what makes Imperator interesting as an "internal development"/building/Vicky-like game and separates it from EU4. And, again, avoid getting Rome and go for a small republic instead.
     
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  4. Humanophage Arcane

    Humanophage
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    I bought the game with the Greek expansion.

    Are the smaller countries reasonably interesting, or are they too generic with no rich mechanics? I first thought about playing for a Greek colony or maybe one of the Dacian states, but I fear that they're too generic and that playing for anyone barbaric would promote blobbing (I haven't played much). Should I just go for Athens, or are the other less developed Greek states fine?
     
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  5. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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    Greek, Diadochi, Rome and Carthage are the most flavorful, with appropriate events, mission trees, traditions, tech, etc. Everything else is one the bland side (Barbarians specially). This means yeah, lots of nations will feel similar, which is the game weak point in a way.*

    From there, republics give the most interesting political play IMO, as you must manage the interests of different parties and families with your own goals, which means engaging in CK-like plots & schemes.

    And lastly, because the game is a tad on the easy side, starting with small nations is usually more challenging. I've played Massylia (the Greek colony one) trying to follow it's merchantile trees and it was a ton of fun. I also tried Athens a couple times but it's much more challenging as it starts subdued by the one-eyed modafucka and must earn its freedom before any other goal. I've also heard Bosphorus kingdom is an interesting start but didnt try yet.

    *there's a big mod called Invictus coming soon, that will introduce flavor in a lot of nations (e.g: Sparta with its 2 kings government system, Scythian appropriate techs and traditions, etc).
     
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  6. Axioms Learned

    Axioms
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    The problem I had was that it was too much like CK2-3. In that schemes are simplistic. I did play as Rome because minor states are dull in Paradox games. Befriending someone to avoid a revolution, and various other activities are a bit simplistic and RNG. Very much like CK2 this game would have been great if it came out in 2011. Bit behind now. There is just way too much +x/+y% to z type bonus management for me. Had my fill of that from EU4. The historical nature is another limitation for me.

    The culture/religion management is still very simple.

    If you read the wiki pages from my old project you'd see what I am looking for vs "provincial focus" or w/e. I will say that this game and CK2 have different strengths and limitations for me in this peacetime features. This game has potential if they would put out major DLCs for different important systems. And if I hadn't already played EU:Rome as well as several other Paradox games it would probably feel fresher and more innovative.

    Going from 3-5 to 6-8 I think is a fair review score change for the things from the 2.0 update. Vicky 3 to me is looking like a 7-9 game based on their plans. We'll see if they execute.
     
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  7. Theodora Arcane Patron

    Theodora
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    Honestly, I would argue that IR has more really well fleshed out starts than most Paradox games have after two years of post-release development (which is kinda impressive given how much they had to do in order to simply recover from the mess that was the launch version). You don't have to play as Rome to play an interesting start. Beyond Rome and Carthage, you've got the Diadochi, and a bunch of Greek minors all fairly distinguished.

    Would recommend Epirus or Massilia if you want something in the western Mediterranean, otherwise the Bosporan Kingdom is one of the most interesting minor starts imo, along with Bactria, which can form the Indo-Greek Kingdom. If you want to dive into a big messy empire, Antigonids or the Seleukids are obvious picks.
     
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  8. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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    I think Axioms point is that the game mechanics are simplistic, which is kinda true. Imperator is not Vicky 3, and never intended to be.
     
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  9. Axioms Learned

    Axioms
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    Pretty much. There are a lot of mechanics but they aren't connected in any real way.
     
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  10. TemplarGR Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Bethestard

    TemplarGR
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    Paradox does not seem capable of producing Victoria 3.
     
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  11. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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    I wouldn't say so, as various aspects of Imperator connect together in interesting ways. Ie: when you raise a levy you recruit the very Pops that produce your food and trade goods, and you assign as commander the very characters that you interact politically. And you may lose those in a war. This is one example of military, politics and production being interconnected. (oh and that commander may hijack that army for himself if his loyalty drops too much)

    What I meant by simplistic is that the mechanics that deal with those things are not as deep as, say, Vicky2 economic system. None of Imperator mechanics are.

    Can you post that work of yours again? I think were talking past each other here. Or at least I am.
     
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  12. Theodora Arcane Patron

    Theodora
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    That's just not true, dude. It's arguably the most interconnected set of dynamic systems that Paradox has produced since Vic2. The very reason that I love it so much, period aside, is that it's not just about clicking on buttons arbitrarily, but how pops, military, politics, culture, laws, and even religion are all tied to each other and dependent on the state of each other.

    Men dying in the field will kill pops at home. General who distinguish themselves can be elevated to Godhood. Or they can simply earn the loyalty of enough men to threaten and even overthrow the government. Pops migrate to or from your cities based on a host of factors; and your policies / extent to which you integrate foreign pops, and which privileges you choose to extend to them, will be important in deciding their happiness in the long-run, productivity, and risk of outright revolt. Hell, you can just enslave an entire people for the economic benefits, but then you'll have to deal with the long-term consequences. And if you're a republic, all of this is done under the consent of your Senate/Adirim/Ekklesia/Gerousia/Sangha/Assembly, or the consequences of being a tyrant.

    I'm not saying there aren't things you can criticize, but if you aren't even really following what's happening (you said it's poorly explained) I don't think it's fair to say that they're existing in isolation.
     
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  13. Axioms Learned

    Axioms
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    Post what work?

    Anyways Imperator is still a Paradox game with lots of little bonuses. Imperator is good in that there are choices to make compared to most Paradox games, especially on what goods to abuse for bonuses but the min-maxing tiny bonuses issue remains. Stuff like religion doesn't have any real meaning, just bonus choosing. There isn't real religious conflict. Just conversion bonuses. Same for culture. Vicky 3 looks very promising on the culture front, although it is still a bonus based Paradox game.
     
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  14. AgentFransis Arbiter Patron

    AgentFransis
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    Paradox cultists infest another thread.
     
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  15. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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    You know, for someone with so many criticisms about a game you're showing a fair share ignorance about it. Not to say Imperator is some masterpiece because it's not.

    The work I'm referring to is that wiki of yours that you linked in another thread, with ideas for a game.
     
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  16. Theodora Arcane Patron

    Theodora
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    This is a totally substance-less statement. Culture is a huge pillar of Imperator, and the basis of much of its peacetime gameplay.



    (And that's the self-described 'basics'.)
     
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  17. Delterius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Delterius
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    this is not the imperator thread, how dare you
     
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  18. Theodora Arcane Patron

    Theodora
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    it's also not the vic3 thread, so what exactly is it?
     
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  19. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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    This is the thinking man / non-haterz Victoria 3 thread. :obviously:
     
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  20. Axioms Learned

    Axioms
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    https://axioms-of-dominion.fandom.com/wiki/Axioms_Of_Dominion_Wiki

    You don't list the things I'm ignorant about so I can't respond to that aspect.
     
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  21. Axioms Learned

    Axioms
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    So I dug around the menus a whole bunch to try and figure out what you were talking about. I maintain my position on Religion but Culture is actually a little better than I thought. These menus are basically invisible and don't ever draw attention to themselves unless you are purposefully just clicking every button. So they do a few things I talk about in my blog/wiki. Cultural integration exists in a limited way. You can set rights and privileges and shit. There doesn't appear to be a strong relation to characters in this area. Or vassals? Integration only exists in relation to the state among populations of territory under direct control. As far as I can tell. Maybe I'm missing an obscure submenu. So I said I revised my score from 3-5 to 6-8. I guess I'm pushing closer to a 7-8 here. However I am not a huge fan of the "Political Influence" resource here. Like mana it applies to so many different things and it really is just button clicking. And there are about 5 decisions plus 5 caste/class limitations available, so not incredibly extensive. I guess I agree that this is the most viable game available, until Vicky 3, for "integration". I would like at least 1 major DLC to amp this aspect up. On this particular issue I guess I'd give the game an 8?
     
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  22. Theodora Arcane Patron

    Theodora
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    Integrating vassals was an area that was meant to get a rework, but got shelved due to resource issues. Hopefully it's where they start if/when the game gets resurrected.
     
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  23. Axioms Learned

    Axioms
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    So I finally got into it with Carthage as Rome, I did a lot of shit in the north first. It is 571/183 right now. I would say the game is good for some stuff but it suffers from a lot of his speed 5 and wait issues. I suspect it would be even worse with minor countries. I would say IR is halfway between other Paradox games and where I want things to be.
     
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  24. Theodora Arcane Patron

    Theodora
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    Imo all they need to do at this point is add content / define the identity of tribes and migratories, and give more cultures the same treatment they gave Greeks in the Magna Graecia DLC (including generic but dynamic mission trees for Greeks based on different regions/backgrounds, only for Celts or Germans or the peoples of India and Persia).

    Further religious and cultural distinction would be nice, even if it’s just some more event lines.

    edit: oh and for them to finish the vassal rework and redo trade
     
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  25. Axioms Learned

    Axioms
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    I wanna see more in depth character interactions, a more dynamic vassal system tied into culture, religion, and characters, and more diplomacy and intrigue and politics. The "3 faction/party" system is outdated. A major part of my goal for Axioms was to have long term character/family relations. Whether that is patrons and clients for Rome or feudal vassals and retainers for monarchies. I think that since you play as the ruler it might be hard to really do anything like my plots/conspiracies/propaganda stuff. But there is some stuff.

    I'd also like to see more unique cities. I played as Rome and I went hard on Roma. My only regret is Roma isn't a port. I have 36 trade routes and 33 buildings in the 570s. In a few years I'll have the 4 innovations I need for +2 city slots and +1 territory slot. I have 135% civilization and other nonsense as well. I'd like to see a big rework expansion of buildings. Nothing like Axioms which gets pretty wild with buildings/items/etc but making science cities or port cities or military cities very distinct. Like right now most cities are generic and get the same stuff. Especially the big civilization boosters and happiness boosters. I'd like cities to have significance. Each city exists for a purposes. Also geographical stuff. Fancy harbors, cities at the junction of big rivers, etc.
     
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