Grand Strategy Where is Victoria III?

[Theodora]

I did play as Rome because minor states are dull in Paradox games.

Honestly, I would argue that IR has more really well fleshed out starts than most Paradox games have after two years of post-release development (which is kinda impressive given how much they had to do in order to simply recover from the mess that was the launch version). You don't have to play as Rome to play an interesting start. Beyond Rome and Carthage, you've got the Diadochi, and a bunch of Greek minors all fairly distinguished.

Would recommend Epirus or Massilia if you want something in the western Mediterranean, otherwise the Bosporan Kingdom is one of the most interesting minor starts imo, along with Bactria, which can form the Indo-Greek Kingdom. If you want to dive into a big messy empire, Antigonids or the Seleukids are obvious picks.

 

[Silva]

I think Axioms point is that the game mechanics are simplistic, which is kinda true. Imperator is not Vicky 3, and never intended to be.

 

[Axioms]

I think Axioms point is that the game mechanics are simplistic, which is kinda true. Imperator is not Vicky 3, and never intended to be.

Pretty much. There are a lot of mechanics but they aren't connected in any real way.

 

[TemplarGR]

Paradox does not seem capable of producing Victoria 3.

 

[Silva]

Pretty much. There are a lot of mechanics but they aren't connected in any real way.

I wouldn't say so, as various aspects of Imperator connect together in interesting ways. Ie: when you raise a levy you recruit the very Pops that produce your food and trade goods, and you assign as commander the very characters that you interact politically. And you may lose those in a war. This is one example of military, politics and production being interconnected. (oh and that commander may hijack that army for himself if his loyalty drops too much)

What I meant by simplistic is that the mechanics that deal with those things are not as deep as, say, Vicky2 economic system. None of Imperator mechanics are.

Can you post that work of yours again? I think were talking past each other here. Or at least I am.

 

[Theodora]

Pretty much. There are a lot of mechanics but they aren't connected in any real way.

That's just not true, dude. It's arguably the most interconnected set of dynamic systems that Paradox has produced since Vic2. The very reason that I love it so much, period aside, is that it's not just about clicking on buttons arbitrarily, but how pops, military, politics, culture, laws, and even religion are all tied to each other and dependent on the state of each other.

Men dying in the field will kill pops at home. General who distinguish themselves can be elevated to Godhood. Or they can simply earn the loyalty of enough men to threaten and even overthrow the government. Pops migrate to or from your cities based on a host of factors; and your policies / extent to which you integrate foreign pops, and which privileges you choose to extend to them, will be important in deciding their happiness in the long-run, productivity, and risk of outright revolt. Hell, you can just enslave an entire people for the economic benefits, but then you'll have to deal with the long-term consequences. And if you're a republic, all of this is done under the consent of your Senate/Adirim/Ekklesia/Gerousia/Sangha/Assembly, or the consequences of being a tyrant.

I'm not saying there aren't things you can criticize, but if you aren't even really following what's happening (you said it's poorly explained) I don't think it's fair to say that they're existing in isolation.

 

[Axioms]

Pretty much. There are a lot of mechanics but they aren't connected in any real way.

I wouldn't say so, as various aspects of Imperator connect together in interesting ways. Ie: when you raise a levy you recruit the very Pops that produce your food and trade goods, and you assign as commander the very characters that you interact politically. And you may lose those in a war. This is one example of military, politics and production being interconnected. (oh and that commander may hijack that army for himself if his loyalty drops too much)

What I meant by simplistic is that the mechanics that deal with those things are not as deep as, say, Vicky2 economic system. None of Imperator mechanics are.

Can you post that work of yours again? I think were talking past each other here. Or at least I am.

Post what work?

Anyways Imperator is still a Paradox game with lots of little bonuses. Imperator is good in that there are choices to make compared to most Paradox games, especially on what goods to abuse for bonuses but the min-maxing tiny bonuses issue remains. Stuff like religion doesn't have any real meaning, just bonus choosing. There isn't real religious conflict. Just conversion bonuses. Same for culture. Vicky 3 looks very promising on the culture front, although it is still a bonus based Paradox game.

 

[AgentFransis]

Paradox cultists infest another thread.

 

[Silva]

Post what work?

Anyways Imperator is still a Paradox game with lots of little bonuses. Imperator is good in that there are choices to make compared to most Paradox games, especially on what goods to abuse for bonuses but the min-maxing tiny bonuses issue remains. Stuff like religion doesn't have any real meaning, just bonus choosing. There isn't real religious conflict. Just conversion bonuses. Same for culture. Vicky 3 looks very promising on the culture front, although it is still a bonus based Paradox game.

You know, for someone with so many criticisms about a game you're showing a fair share ignorance about it. Not to say Imperator is some masterpiece because it's not.

The work I'm referring to is that wiki of yours that you linked in another thread, with ideas for a game.

 

[Theodora]

Stuff like religion doesn't have any real meaning, just bonus choosing. There isn't real religious conflict. Just conversion bonuses. Same for culture. Vicky 3 looks very promising on the culture front, although it is still a bonus based Paradox game.

This is a totally substance-less statement. Culture is a huge pillar of Imperator, and the basis of much of its peacetime gameplay.



(And that's the self-described 'basics'.)

 

[Delterius]

this is not the imperator thread, how dare you

 

[Theodora]

it's also not the vic3 thread, so what exactly is it?

 

[Silva]

This is the thinking man / non-haterz Victoria 3 thread.

 

[Axioms]

Post what work?

Anyways Imperator is still a Paradox game with lots of little bonuses. Imperator is good in that there are choices to make compared to most Paradox games, especially on what goods to abuse for bonuses but the min-maxing tiny bonuses issue remains. Stuff like religion doesn't have any real meaning, just bonus choosing. There isn't real religious conflict. Just conversion bonuses. Same for culture. Vicky 3 looks very promising on the culture front, although it is still a bonus based Paradox game.

You know, for someone with so many criticisms about a game you're showing a fair share ignorance about it. Not to say Imperator is some masterpiece because it's not.

The work I'm referring to is that wiki of yours that you linked in another thread, with ideas for a game.

https://axioms-of-dominion.fandom.com/wiki/Axioms_Of_Dominion_Wiki

You don't list the things I'm ignorant about so I can't respond to that aspect.

 

[Axioms]

So I dug around the menus a whole bunch to try and figure out what you were talking about. I maintain my position on Religion but Culture is actually a little better than I thought. These menus are basically invisible and don't ever draw attention to themselves unless you are purposefully just clicking every button. So they do a few things I talk about in my blog/wiki. Cultural integration exists in a limited way. You can set rights and privileges and shit. There doesn't appear to be a strong relation to characters in this area. Or vassals? Integration only exists in relation to the state among populations of territory under direct control. As far as I can tell. Maybe I'm missing an obscure submenu. So I said I revised my score from 3-5 to 6-8. I guess I'm pushing closer to a 7-8 here. However I am not a huge fan of the "Political Influence" resource here. Like mana it applies to so many different things and it really is just button clicking. And there are about 5 decisions plus 5 caste/class limitations available, so not incredibly extensive. I guess I agree that this is the most viable game available, until Vicky 3, for "integration". I would like at least 1 major DLC to amp this aspect up. On this particular issue I guess I'd give the game an 8?

 

[Theodora]

Integrating vassals was an area that was meant to get a rework, but got shelved due to resource issues. Hopefully it's where they start if/when the game gets resurrected.

 

[Axioms]

Integrating vassals was an area that was meant to get a rework, but got shelved due to resource issues. Hopefully it's where they start if/when the game gets resurrected.

So I finally got into it with Carthage as Rome, I did a lot of shit in the north first. It is 571/183 right now. I would say the game is good for some stuff but it suffers from a lot of his speed 5 and wait issues. I suspect it would be even worse with minor countries. I would say IR is halfway between other Paradox games and where I want things to be.

 

[Theodora]

I would say IR is halfway between other Paradox games and where I want things to be.

Imo all they need to do at this point is add content / define the identity of tribes and migratories, and give more cultures the same treatment they gave Greeks in the Magna Graecia DLC (including generic but dynamic mission trees for Greeks based on different regions/backgrounds, only for Celts or Germans or the peoples of India and Persia).

Further religious and cultural distinction would be nice, even if it’s just some more event lines.

edit: oh and for them to finish the vassal rework and redo trade

 

[Axioms]

I wanna see more in depth character interactions, a more dynamic vassal system tied into culture, religion, and characters, and more diplomacy and intrigue and politics. The "3 faction/party" system is outdated. A major part of my goal for Axioms was to have long term character/family relations. Whether that is patrons and clients for Rome or feudal vassals and retainers for monarchies. I think that since you play as the ruler it might be hard to really do anything like my plots/conspiracies/propaganda stuff. But there is some stuff.

I'd also like to see more unique cities. I played as Rome and I went hard on Roma. My only regret is Roma isn't a port. I have 36 trade routes and 33 buildings in the 570s. In a few years I'll have the 4 innovations I need for +2 city slots and +1 territory slot. I have 135% civilization and other nonsense as well. I'd like to see a big rework expansion of buildings. Nothing like Axioms which gets pretty wild with buildings/items/etc but making science cities or port cities or military cities very distinct. Like right now most cities are generic and get the same stuff. Especially the big civilization boosters and happiness boosters. I'd like cities to have significance. Each city exists for a purposes. Also geographical stuff. Fancy harbors, cities at the junction of big rivers, etc.

 

[Sranchammer]

IR isnt a bad game anymore. I am optimistic.

 

[Axioms]

IR isnt a bad game anymore. I am optimistic.

They got rid of nearly all the mana except political influence. It is crazy that they finally made the game unique and interesting compared to other Paradox games and then dumped it.

 

[Theodora]

It is crazy that they finally made the game unique and interesting compared to other Paradox games and then dumped it.

It isn't dumped. They've explicitly ended development with plenty of games, their story about restructuring and not having enough hires due to covid adds up.

Obviously it could still get dumped if they can't resolve that situation, but there's no reason to think it's anything but "on hold" for now. All they've said is that it won't be getting any meaningful new content in 2021, because of Paradox's long summer holidays (Swedish labour laws), and the amount of time that would be necessary for a new team to familiarise themselves with the game's code. It makes sense that new hires in what, August? (given they're about to go away for Summer) wouldn't be in a position to finish any meaningful new features, reworks, or content packs before the end of the year (esp. if they're to act on the lessons of not releasing unfinished, broken shit).

 

[Demo.Graph]

All they've said is that it won't be getting any meaningful new content in 2021, because of Paradox's long summer holidays

What do you mean? IIRC they're going away for a month, in about July, aren't they?

 

[Theodora]

What do you mean? IIRC they're going away for a month, in about July, aren't they?

A month is a long time compared to a lot of places. And it inevitably has a bit of a warm up and shutdown period at the end of june / start of august. And the end of june is only a month away. That kinda time isn't long enough to get a whole new team in place, nevermind have them familiarise themselves with the ins and outs of Imperator's internals.

 

[Riddler]

All they've said is that it won't be getting any meaningful new content in 2021, because of Paradox's long summer holidays

What do you mean? IIRC they're going away for a month, in about July, aren't they?

Realistically very little happens from the second to last week of June to mid August.

Vacations overlap and it's not like everyone is going at exactly the same time.