Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Why D&D 3rd Edition Was Part of the Decline

Turjan

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
5,047
What killed 4th was mainly three things.

One: static combat where powers typically had very limited effects - everything came down to grind, grind, grind and HP bloat ensured looooong, drawn out fights.

Two: the fact that all classes basically built upon the same fundamental mechanics, and variations were few or nowhere to be seen.

Three: OD&D, AD&D and 3.5 - anyone looking at them might be able to tell they were different, but could also see the connections and how they were alike. 4th edition was completely alien, and almost nothing about the system tied into its predecessors.

I'm sure that this must have been already mentioned in this thread, but one reason is the OGL. 3.5 never died, and OD&D and AD&D were lifted from their respective slumbers. When Paizo had more "D&D" customers than WotC, the failure was evident to everyone.

For what it's worth, we are still playing D&D 3.5 in our PnP rounds. In my area, it's the easiest D&D version to find a game for.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,436
Location
Copenhagen
Well, regarding that: the question is whether 4E died because 3.5/Pathfinder never did, or whether 3.5/Pathfinder never died because 4E did.

My answer is pretty clear, and it's in opposition to yours. I clearly remember when 4E came. Everybody I knew, OD&D-gamers, AD&D-gamers and 3.5'ers in the area, was trying it out. It was, after all, a D&D release. People played it, read about it, talked about it.

The game killed itself by virtue of not meeting people's expectations. OD&D'ers got more of the new shit, 3.5'ers got a style system with none of the sandbox they wanted. 4E appealed to a small group of people, and vaning support and a comparative closed-ness compared to 3.5 and the OGL killed it even for that group, mostly.

4E's failure as a system ensured Pathfinder's success almost to the same extend that Pathfinder succeeded on its own by virtue of quality product. Though man, Pathfinder is some quality fucking shit.
 

Turjan

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
5,047
It was basically WotC's fault that Pathfinder existed at all. They first promised that 4e would still be an open system, with a slightly changed license. Paizo announced they would make adventure paths for the new system, as they did for 3.5. Then happened ... nothing. For a very long time. All questions regarding the new OGL stayed unanswered for a year or so, even though there had been some preliminary material sent to interested publishers. It became clear that WotC had changed its mind about an open license. Wizards canceled both, Dungeon and Dragon magazines, which had been published by Paizo. They forbade Paizo to use the term "adventure path". There wasn't anywhere else to go for Paizo now than to keep 3.5 alive, and Paizo had lots of fans. The half-assed GLS license, which finally appeared after some high-profile interventions but proved to be unacceptable for most publishers, was just the icing on the cake.

I still think that, if WotC had not tried to exclude all other OGL publishers from the cake, while having a horrible hand at trying to replace those services they now forbade, the D&D world would look different today. If WotC had had Paizo help them with their flaunted efforts at replacing Dungeon and Dragon and their mostly bad attempts at writing adventures, most other D&D systems would have sunk into a niche system existence. Let's see whether they will be able to turn this around.

WotC just managed to build up a huge amount of customer ill will, whether their new system deserved it or not.

I know there seem to be some regional differences, oddly enough. For some regions in the US, your observation seems correct. In others, 4E never stood a chance.
 
Joined
Oct 13, 2012
Messages
1,205
Project: Eternity
In Poland D&D is decomposing corpse. Only 3 4e rulebooks were translated, out of which 0 were Setting rulebooks. No new novels as well.

Things were going kinda bad with the market at the end of 3.5e but 4e was nail in the coffin.
 

Telengard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Messages
1,621
Location
The end of every place
I figured I'd dredge up some old wounds, because the tonal change to the game that the OP spoke of is something I've been thinking about for several years now. And I'm bored. So, I'm going to say a few words on the nature of safety nets across the D&D editions.

These safety nets are the things that have been added to the game to protect one's character from dying. And over the years, they have become many. Yeah, there are the obvious ones - the classes having larger hit point dice, higher attributes with better bonuses, better ACs. And all of those things do help protect characters from dying. But they are just the smaller nudges. They are a part of the whole, but the big nudges are often much less direct.

For instance. No more Save vs Poison or die. Now, it is Save vs Poison or lose a few Attribute points, temporarily. There are still death poisons, but they have been made rare. Which has a number of effects. For one, creatures which used to be remarkably deadly are suddenly pretty weak, and that makes dungeons a less deadly place to be, since one knows one isn't going to suddenly face creatures that cause save or die rolls. And really, save or die rolls are pretty much out in general, making dungeons a much safer place to be overall.

Many traps remain the same, damage-wise. But character hit points have increased. A 3d6 fall just isn't what it used to be. And many characters have means of reducing or even eliminating damage taken from certain types of traps, on top of it. Which means traps are now a much less serious threat than they once were.

Spellcasters have an increased number of spells per day, and they have many more healing and protection spells available to them. The healing line is no longer Cure Light and a long wait over many levels for the next healing spell. Instead, there is a new healing spell introduced every spell level, each one better than the last. Coupled with the increased number of spells per day and the fact that the good aligned can turn any spell to a healing spell means that healers can now do a great deal more to protect the party from dying than they used to. And that's even before healing surges get involved. No more need to wait for a healer to get to you. You can protect yourself from dying.

And then there's disabled and dying instead of just dead. These days, no one dies until they reach negative CON. Where before, in Basic, you were just dead. That's a bunch of free extra hit points that everyone gets, effectively doubling or even tripling a 1st level character's hit points. Which not only pads a character's life expectancy, it gives everyone a fairly decent span of time in which they can "save" a dying character, instead of simply having the character be dead. Couple that with most GMs not aggressively having enemies go for the kill against all dying characters, and a party can readily be restored back up to full strength as long as a single character survives the fight. Which makes fights that much less deadly.

And then even if you do die. Being brought back from the dead no longer causes irremovable injury, even the lower level version. All penalties can be wiped away. There also is no longer the risk of permanent death with a resurrection survival chance roll when being brought back. Which together puts bringing someone back from the dead much more readily into people's grasp. One top of that, there is more treasure available, and selling and crafting magic items has become an official part of the rules. Which means affording to bring someone back no longer is the economic burden that it once was. Meaning, even those who "die" don't necessarily stay dead for long.

But, it's not any one of these safety nets that makes the difference. It's all of them together. And it's not just the protections themselves that change the nature of the game, it's the fact that together they set a tone. Players look at all of those safety nets, and - even if only subconsciously - they form the opinion that their characters are to be protected from death. That, to the point where people will say things like: "A good GM only ever kills a PC for story reasons". Or "A good GM wouldn't let the death by poisoning stand. He would have the poisoned character fall comatose, and then give the Players a week to find a cure." Which are, essentially, recommendations that GMs interfere with the game with deus ex machina in order to protect characters from death. Which is a whole nother set of safety nets.

Now, a particular GM can, of course, change all of these rules. But most GMs do not readily make that many fundamental changes to the rules. Instead, they nudge rules here and there, if they make any changes at all. Because otherwise, "they're not really playing D&D".

When was the last time you had a character die? Not dying. Dead. Where you wrote "killed by X on date X", folded the paper in half, and set him in your character cemetery. People don't even have character cemeteries anymore. They don't need them, since they no longer have dozens of dead characters. My Basic, AD&D, 2nd cemetery had 132 fallen in it. Mostly from Basic. My 3rd, Pathfinder, and 4th total dead so far across several GMs is 1. And that 1 was for story purposes.

With much less risk of death, there is much less penalty for taking risky, heroic actions. Which fits in with the overall tonal change that occurred across the editions, which many have remarked on, shifting away from a gritty adventure to a heroic epic.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,436
Location
Copenhagen
These safety nets are the things that have been added to the game to protect one's character from dying. And over the years, they have become many. Yeah, there are the obvious ones - the classes having larger hit point dice, higher attributes with better bonuses, better ACs. And all of those things do help protect characters from dying. But they are just the smaller nudges. They are a part of the whole, but the big nudges are often much less direct.

WOW! That shit is awesome :lol:

First fucking point and there's a HUGE fallacy. Later 3.5 (in an optimized space) is almost entirely about initiative. Why? Because the potential for damage is so high - much, MUCH higher than in older editions - that almost everyone one- or two-shots everyone. Even in non-optimized campaigns, the damage output is so high that hit points simply can't keep up. It is among the Top 5 things that 3.5 should rightly be criticized for. It is why 4th edition reduced damage and bumped HP (an alarming failure because it was done horrificly).

Furthermore, in older editions of D&D, the potential to actually miss on a To Hit roll stays relevant throughout the entire game, to a certain extend. In D&D, it is a widely accepted fact that AC is pretty much entirely useless. To Hit and backdoors you can use to hit simply scale so much better than AC that trying to avoid getting hit is simply fruitless.

The extend to which your fallacy dives here is a tremendous testament to the fact that you are talking straight out of your ass. A constructive debate would be lovely but you make that insanely difficult when you state flat-out idiocy like this.

they have many more healing and protection spells available to them.

Except for Heal, healing spells are a commonly accepted complete waste of time in 3.5. Protection spells are HEAVILY nerfed. The infamous Stoneskin - a complete protection package for the old Wizard - has been reduced to mediocre safeguard.

I am quite simply in awe of how simply untrue your post is. If I didn't know any better, I'd say you had crafted a finely-tuned troll post.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

Notorious Internet Vandal
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
34,585
Location
Cell S-004
MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
I'm simply in awe over why the hell is dying such an important thing for DnD, or roleplaying games in general. Or why the system usually has jack shit to matter in terms of lethality in the end since it's all about the GM's choice of style for his game.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
Boy this is still going on. All because "3rd edition" is the biggest misnomer ever. There are different games with more things in common than D&D "editions" ever since WOTC took over.

I'm simply in awe over why the hell is dying such an important thing for DnD, or roleplaying games in general. Or why the system usually has jack shit to matter in terms of lethality in the end since it's all about the GM's choice of style for his game.
Because it's the ultimate failure state. If there's no real risk of dying it's p. lame.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
Because it's the ultimate failure state. If there's no real risk of dying it's p. lame.
On the other hand, dying because of a single roll is p. lame too.
It is, but it depends on the game. In auld D&D and some OSR games where a character is basically just an ability array you can replace with ease, and the system is simple enough you can easily play multiple characters, it's less of an issue.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

Notorious Internet Vandal
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
34,585
Location
Cell S-004
MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
Because it's the ultimate failure state. If there's no real risk of dying it's p. lame.
On the other hand, dying because of a single roll is p. lame too.
It is, but it depends on the game. In auld D&D and some OSR games where a character is basically just an ability array you can replace with ease, and the system is simple enough you can easily play multiple characters, it's less of an issue.
That sounds like the single most boring kind of PnP campaign possible. Wouldn't join. The thing that separates PnP from boardgames is that it's possible to actually use them like White Wolf keeps banging on about, and instead focus on storytelling.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

(And it's still down to GM whether or not a game is lethal, he might populate the game with monsters half your CR if he doesn't want lethality)
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
Because it's the ultimate failure state. If there's no real risk of dying it's p. lame.
On the other hand, dying because of a single roll is p. lame too.
It is, but it depends on the game. In auld D&D and some OSR games where a character is basically just an ability array you can replace with ease, and the system is simple enough you can easily play multiple characters, it's less of an issue.
That sounds like the single most boring kind of PnP campaign possible. Wouldn't join. The thing that separates PnP from boardgames is that it's possible to actually use them like White Wolf keeps banging on about, and instead focus on storytelling.
I would, it's a fun, less involved type of game. But White Wolf stuff is my favourite too, also because of the fairly high lethality, though it's a different type of lethality, it's not stacked against the player like in auld D&D.
 

Night Goat

The Immovable Autism
Patron
No Fun Allowed
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
1,865,441
Location
[redacted]
Codex 2013 Codex 2014
When I was a DM, I liked to make PC death unlikely because there aren't any resurrection spells in my setting. I tend to run a storyfaggy campaign, and the death of an important NPC doesn't mean much if you can just take a collection and bring them back to life. The most common cause of PC death in my campaign was other PCs.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

Notorious Internet Vandal
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
34,585
Location
Cell S-004
MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
When I was a DM, I liked to make PC death unlikely because there aren't any resurrection spells in my setting. I tend to run a storyfaggy campaign, and the death of an important NPC doesn't mean much if you can just take a collection and bring them back to life. The most common cause of PC death in my campaign was other PCs.
I basically hiss and growl whenever I go through the spell lists and notice resurrection spells. Funny thing is, nobody ever seems to think just how massive the changes to a world would be if some assholes could just bring people back from the dead on a whim.
 

Night Goat

The Immovable Autism
Patron
No Fun Allowed
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
1,865,441
Location
[redacted]
Codex 2013 Codex 2014
Exactly. Far too many fantasy writers take magic for granted, without considering the impact it would have on the world. If people could be resurrected that easily, it seems like clerics would revive just about everyone who died before their time. I know it's expensive to hire a cleric to cast the spell, but it seems like some religions would be willing to do it for free.

One idea for a story arc that I never got to use would have involved the PCs discovering the first resurrection spell. It would be interesting to see how they'd use it, and how society would react. Of course, they wouldn't learn until much later that the targets of the spell came back wrong.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
There are a lot of ways to kill people in dnd so they can't be rezzed.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,436
Location
Copenhagen
There are a lot of ways to kill people in dnd so they can't be rezzed.

And even more ways to just "take them out". But seriously, there's is zero reason to continue a discussion based on such grade a fallacies as "you die more easily in OD&D".
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
There are a lot of ways to kill people in dnd so they can't be rezzed.

And even more ways to just "take them out". But seriously, there's is zero reason to continue a discussion based on such grade a fallacies as "you die more easily in OD&D".
But you do, it's not just about damage and HP ratios but the combat resolution, which are stacked against the players in AD&D. GM doesn't need to call his actions before resolve phase, and the initiative and magic rules are a lot more forgiving in modern D&D. In AD&D, a guy with a pack of darts will almost certainly act before a spellcaster in combat, and a single hit out of the three attacks he does is enough to break concentration.

Not to mention the mentality of the players is different, Alex was talking on irc about old Dragon magazines, there was this article about a DM guy that had 600 PC deaths in 3 years or something equally absurd...
 
Last edited:

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,436
Location
Copenhagen
There are a lot of ways to kill people in dnd so they can't be rezzed.

And even more ways to just "take them out". But seriously, there's is zero reason to continue a discussion based on such grade a fallacies as "you die more easily in OD&D".
But you do, it's not just about damage and HP ratios but the combat resolution, which are stacked against the players in AD&D. GM doesn't need to call his actions before resolve phase, and the initiative and magic rules are a lot more forgiving in modern D&D. In AD&D, a guy with a pack of darts will almost certainly act before a spellcaster in combat, and a single hit out of the three attacks he does is enough to break concentration.

Not to mention the mentality of the players is different, Alex was talking on irc about old Dragon magazines, there was this article about a DM guy that had 600 PC deaths in 3 years or something equally absurd...

You completely ignore the facts. D&D increasingly becomes "who goes first" because the gameplay is so lethal. I've never participated in an OD&D campaign where that was relevant. It is one of the foremost pieces of criticism against 3.5 ffs. Your arguments might hold water if not for this fact.

Most people, funny enough, don't play "optimized" 3.5 because that would fucking suck, and one of the primary reasons is lethality.

there was this article about a DM guy that had 600 PC deaths in 3 years or something equally absurd...

Congratu-fucking-lations. In my lifetime I have probably 20 or 30 dead OD&D characters and 300 dead 3.5 characters. Why? Because I frequently play make-and-throw-away dungeon crawlin' 3.5 on top of my mix-n'-match, and when I play/played OD&D it was much more about the party and the characters and the story. Right now I'm playing in my most lethal campaign ever; The Tearing of the Weave. So far I've played for 2 years, and I have 40 dead characters or something like that.

That shit would never happen in any of the OD&D campaigns I've ever participated in.

People play this shit differently, and most of it's legitimate. I hope one day people will stop beating each other over the top of the head with their own pet favourite way to roll dice on a table.

Not to mention the mentality of the players is different,

Excidium; the man who knows the mind of millions of D&D players all around the world.
 
Last edited:
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
People play this shit differently, and most of it's legitimate. I hope one day people will stop beating each other over the top of the head with their own pet favourite way to roll dice on a table.
Hey, but then there is no point to talk about D&D. Only reason to play any iteration of it is the attachment to the brand that feeds this type of dumb argument.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,436
Location
Copenhagen
People play this shit differently, and most of it's legitimate. I hope one day people will stop beating each other over the top of the head with their own pet favourite way to roll dice on a table.
Hey, but then there is no point to talk about D&D. Only reason to play any iteration of it is the attachment to the brand that feeds this type of dumb argument.

What? Are you trolling me? I was pointing out you weren't debating design. You were debating how people played. Of course there's a reason to debate design, but you were debating how people played. In a vacuum, 3.5 is way more lethal than OD&D. This can't be debated, it is right there in the mechanics. Almost everyone will one-shot everyone in 3.5.
 

Alex

Arcane
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
8,753
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
Night Goat

There were several. I remember particularly, touching a sphere of annihilation,dying to level drain (in some instances), having your soul stolen, being turned into a larva (unlikely for most PCs, but still), being turned into a slaad. I think a few of the slime enemies prevent resurrection if they get your body.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
People play this shit differently, and most of it's legitimate. I hope one day people will stop beating each other over the top of the head with their own pet favourite way to roll dice on a table.
Hey, but then there is no point to talk about D&D. Only reason to play any iteration of it is the attachment to the brand that feeds this type of dumb argument.
In a vacuum, 3.5 is way more lethal than OD&D. This can't be debated, it is right there in the mechanics. Almost everyone will one-shot everyone in 3.5.
Yes, that much is obvious from just looking at the mechanics, stacked power attacks, full attacks, large selection of save-or-die and no-save spells, you don't even need to factor in cheese builds. What I'm saying is that the mentality and type of playstyle that is encouraged involves less PC deaths, specially early on and for bullshit reasons. It's not like AD&D or OSR games where OOPS SPIKE TRAP, roll another ability array.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom