Why do so many GREAT RPG's worsen in late game?

[Melcar]

They just run out of steam. Be it money, creative will, stress from meeting the deadline, etc. Happens in other mediums too like movies.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

Games are generally designed from beginning to end, and its usually at the beginning of a project that people feel most energetic.

And we've all seen what happens if a game has a bad beginning but is amazing afterward, people don't even bother playing it. Its the 21st century and everyone needs to have their fun NOW NOW NOW.

 

[Alex]

It's not just games. Eventually you run out of both time and ideas so you take shortcuts knowing that most people will never see the end anyway.

For RPGs you have the problem that combat usually isn't that good anyway but you need a final confrontation with the villain which requires lots of combat and not much else.

I want to know who draws horses starting from the butt.

That is actually an example of the opposite case. The artist got better at drawing as he went along.

 

[Devastator]

Simple, devs have a deadline to reach and at the end of the development, they are fed up on the project. The budget allowed to the game is also a criterion.

True, but deadlines and budgets exist for any project (as they should), and the project’s head is responsible for feasibility of the work. I think studios are sometimes way too ambitious and devs refuse to settle for less than perfect until it is too late. When you are behind schedule, you no longer have time for new problems you did not anticipate.

 

[wishbonetail]

It's not just games. Eventually you run out of both time and ideas so you take shortcuts knowing that most people will never see the end anyway.

For RPGs you have the problem that combat usually isn't that good anyway but you need a final confrontation with the villain which requires lots of combat and not much else.

I want to know who draws horses starting from the butt.

That is actually an example of the opposite case. The artist got better at drawing as he went along.

Maybe he just likes to draw asses.

 

[JarlFrank]

For RPGs you have the problem that combat usually isn't that good anyway but you need a final confrontation with the villain which requires lots of combat and not much else.

Why do you require lots of combat?

The final confrontation with the villain would be exactly one encounter.

Filler trash mobs are shit and there's no reason whatsoever to have them, especially in the endgame when the player is ready to get it over with and filler trash just ruins the pacing.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I guess it's a combination of character/party becoming overpowered and player unavoidably getting bored with these very long games. From what I understand, they also usually design starter areas later where the production is a well oiled machine because you can't recover from a bid first impression.

 

[wishbonetail]

For RPGs you have the problem that combat usually isn't that good anyway but you need a final confrontation with the villain which requires lots of combat and not much else.

Why do you require lots of combat?

The final confrontation with the villain would be exactly one encounter.

Filler trash mobs are shit and there's no reason whatsoever to have them, especially in the endgame when the player is ready to get it over with and filler trash just ruins the pacing.

The reasons for trash mobs are to show off you character(s) epicness and heroicness,
to show contrast between regular mobs and big boss, so the final encounter will be impactful,
to give player a sense of progression while he overcomes the monotonous bloat, so he could breathe out easily when it's finally over.

 

[Norfleet]

All endgames must necessarily peter out because in the beginning of the game, your options tend to expand, but as the game approaches the ending, your options converge. There is thus simply no way an ending can actually be better than the rest of the game.

Throne of Bhaal keeps upping the ante all the way until Amelyssan. You do feel a smug sense of satisfaction that there are entire Kingdoms in Thethyr that are bankrupting themselves trying to put a bounty on your head.

Technically, they'd only go bankrupt if they actually had to pay the bounty.

 

[BlizzardStockholmSyndrome]

All endgames must necessarily peter out because in the beginning of the game, your options tend to expand, but as the game approaches the ending, your options converge. There is thus simply no way an ending can actually be better than the rest of the game.

Throne of Bhaal keeps upping the ante all the way until Amelyssan. You do feel a smug sense of satisfaction that there are entire Kingdoms in Thethyr that are bankrupting themselves trying to put a bounty on your head.

Technically, they'd only go bankrupt if they actually had to pay the bounty.

Jaheira was from Tethyr, fuck Tethyr. But the Oasis fight has enough level 10-12 characters in the mobs that there's quite a few instakill options. Knowing that your party of 3-6 can obliterate entire armies feels endgamy, within the framework of D&D. Your toon is a demigod and anyone joining them are basking in their divine essence. Just imagine a company of 50 men, being trained, outfitted, working to build a reputation. See a 100K gold bounty for a single bhaalspawn and your eyes light up. When you meet them, half of your men die to a Death spell and the other half blow up to a druid's Fire Seeds.

 

[Darth Canoli]

There's no way you'll ever reach the level cap in those games if you play with a full party.

You can probably reach the level cap with the heart of fury mode from the EEs.
Quite autistic but it's a xp shower.

 

[wishbonetail]

There's no way you'll ever reach the level cap in those games if you play with a full party.

You can probably reach the level cap with the heart of fury mode from the EEs.
Quite autistic but it's a xp shower.

Don't remember about IWD but i did a full- party walkthrough of PoE, reached level cap and spent at least 30 hours with a burning desire for it to finally end. I still pat myself on the back for that manifestation of unbreakable will. Never again, i say.

 

[luj1]

Why a significant drop in the quality happens in so many RPGs?

front loading

 

[JarlFrank]

monotonous bloat

That's why trash mobs suck.

"Look how powerful you are, you can defeat non-threatening groups of enemies!"

Ok, cool. You know what makes me feel even more powerful? Overcoming a challenging encounter that took me 3 attempts before I made it. And in contrast to boring trash mobs, that's actually fun.

 

[Trashos]

Kingmaker's Ch6 is awesome, buddy! Just way above your head. I won't disagree about Ch7 though, I feel done with the playthrough when I reach it.

Generally though, I would like to see RPGs -especially openish world ones- give the player the option to successfully finish the playthrough without a dragged out finale. Something like giving the option to the player to enter the big bad boss's lair at some point after midgame. Then I can choose whether I want to finish it early or go for a completionist playthrough.

 

[JarlFrank]

Generally though, I would like to see RPGs -especially openish world ones- give the player the option to successfully finish the playthrough without a dragged out finale. Something like giving the option to the player to enter the big bad boss's lair at some point after midgame. Then I can choose whether I want to finish it early or go for a completionist playthrough.

Fallout is great for its flexible length. You can rush straight to the Master if you know where he is and know what you're doing. Or you can explore the world and do all the side quests. Up to you.

All RPGs with a big bad end boss should do this.

 

[luj1]

Ok, cool. You know what makes me feel even more powerful? Overcoming a challenging encounter that took me 3 attempts before I made it. And in contrast to boring trash mobs, that's actually fun.

KotC / ToEE / Fallout Tactics

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

There's nothing wrong with BG1's and IWD1's lategame.

Eh, there was some horseshit in BG1's.

 

[NJClaw]

There's nothing wrong with BG1's and IWD1's lategame.

Eh, there was some horseshit in BG1's.

The entire maze lasts how long? Ten minutes? That hardly qualifies as a worthy indicator of how good or bad the late game is.

BG1's endgame has some horseshit, but no more than what is already there in the early and mid parts. For as much as I despise the maze, I'd still take it over an empty map filled with gibberlings.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

Dungeon Rats has a great late game. It's arguably the best part of the game.

Most attention is paid to early game areas when dev enthusiasm is at its peak.

There's the counter argument that a developer needs to create the game to get better in it. John Romero (I think) advised to start in the middle of the game and do the beginning in the end for that exact reason since players will forgive a little bit of weakness in the middle but don't forgive a bad beginning.

 

[Late Bloomer]

Its a rare game indeed where I am not thinking about another game during the last 20%. Sometimes even changing how I play just to get through it. I am still somewhat convinced its a player thing too though. Like late game onset of adhd.

 

[Kev Inkline]

It's not just games. Eventually you run out of both time and ideas so you take shortcuts knowing that most people will never see the end anyway.

For RPGs you have the problem that combat usually isn't that good anyway but you need a final confrontation with the villain which requires lots of combat and not much else.

I want to know who draws horses starting from the butt.

That is actually an example of the opposite case. The artist got better at drawing as he went along.

Maybe he just likes to draw asses.

Sorry but that's a horse.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

The entire maze lasts how long? Ten minutes? That hardly qualifies as a worthy indicator of how good or bad the late game is.

We probably have different ideas of what late game is then. To me, late game is basically the variable period of time at the final chapter where the sidequests have all but dried up, and you are driven in a mostly linear direction with increased pace toward the final confrontation. There's no real difference between lategame and endgame by my estimation, both in terms of content and balance. By this point, everything is essentially padding and the difficulty is usually piss-easy because of the way devs are forced to design content which must be completable by players at the lowest possible level that somehow limped along that far.

Baldur's Gate's late game starts in the Ducal Palace to me and it doesn't last terribly long, so those 10 minutes stand out like a sore thumb. Generally though, in regard to the Bioware formula at least, it's whenever your character meets/fights the big bad face to face for the first time but doesn't kill him and the stakes are raised somehow.

 

[Lim-Dûl]

You're not meant to finish these games, that's why. Remember when you were a kid and you were enamored with some games but you never managed to finish them? Those are the ones that still retain some mystery and seem the best in hindsight.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Trash mobs?

Someone has to take out the trash.

I recall end of Wizard's Crown being a bit tough even if you avoided the trash mobs. Shard of Spring wore you down before facing the last battle.

The endings were uh... not fantastic but about what you'd expect for back then.