Why Isometric 2.5D RPGs Should Have Never Come Back

[Ladonna]

Also true. BG and PoE are obviously designed so you don't have to rotate the camera (because you can't). I guess to me it just feels weird when all doors are facing the same way, you can't search behind anything, you can't enter a building via a back window, etc. A 3D world just feels much more interactive to me, and I'm happy to pay the price of having to rotate the camera.

This is just laziness on the developers part. Go and play Jagged Alliance 2 for an example of what can be done in 2D when it comes to interactivity and "cool stuff". As others have said here, Silent Storm engine games were perhaps the only 3D games that went as far as JA2 in this regard. Since then, the great 3D revolution still hasn't come any further. Most of them still run on rails where you cannot even jump over a few rocks!

 

[curds]

Go and play Jagged Alliance 2 for an example of what can be done in 2D when it comes to interactivity and "cool stuff".

I think 3D games have more potential for that sort of shit. That's my point. Just because there was a great 2D game 20 years ago, doesn't mean 2D is just straight up better.

As others have said here, Silent Storm engine games were perhaps the only 3D games that went as far as JA2 in this regard. Since then, the great 3D revolution still hasn't come any further. Most of them still run on rails where you cannot even jump over a few rocks!

Devs not utilizing 3D gameplay to its fullest potential doesn't mean 2D is better. It means modern devs lack ambition and creativity (or finances and manpower), basically:

This is just laziness on the developers part.

 

[barghwata]

Point is there is more good 2D RPGs than 3D ones

That argument would only work if those 2D rpgs are better thanks to being 2D but you didn't really make that connection.

I, for one, will welcome a new Silent Storm, but where it is?

I don't know, i assume games with vast intricate 3d vertical levels are harder to design but i don't think that alone explains why so few Rpgs like silent storm are out there, the last one i remember playing is 7.62 High Calibre. But this doesn't change the fact that 3D games obviously have their merits.

exactly what benefits do "camera angles" provide over not having to fuck around with the camera and just enjoying the game?

Seems like they'd be better off just making a first person or third person game if the camera matters that much.

Are you trolling? figuring out optimal angles to attack from and to avoid enemy attacks is part and parcel of any good 3d tactical game, i guess when you only play games with little to no tactics of course camera angles will seem useless.
Plus you can take some great screenshots

Original x-com had 3D verticality... In 1994.

Not understanding this argument.

Meh, the fact the classics were trying their best to simulate 3d back then is further proof that 3d is superior, not the opposite.

 

[Ladonna]

Go and play Jagged Alliance 2 for an example of what can be done in 2D when it comes to interactivity and "cool stuff".

I think 3D games have more potential for that sort of shit. That's my point. Just because there was a great 2D game 20 years ago, doesn't mean 2D is just straight up better.

As others have said here, Silent Storm engine games were perhaps the only 3D games that went as far as JA2 in this regard. Since then, the great 3D revolution still hasn't come any further. Most of them still run on rails where you cannot even jump over a few rocks!

Devs not utilizing 3D gameplay to its fullest potential doesn't mean 2D is better. It means modern devs lack ambition and creativity (or finances and manpower), basically:

This is just laziness on the developers part.

We can only discuss games that have actually been made. All the potential in the world cannot change the fact that we can't sit down and play one of these dream 3D games, because they don't exist. The whole premise from the OP was that "3D is inherently better". Well, prove it. I was breaking and entering through peoples windows in 2D Arcanum. Climbing ladders, shooting through windows, blasting through walls, etc in Jagged Alliance 2. Conversely, I can run through the same corridors in many 2D and 3D CRPG's, with only a changeable camera being any different.

Some of the 3D First and Third person RPG's moved the bar forward a little, but haven't really gone anywhere much since Gothic 1 and 2 were released. Often they have actually went backwards from these titles. I agree there is plenty of potential, but until these games surface, it is only potential.

 

[barghwata]

We can only discuss games that have actually been made. All the potential in the world cannot change the fact that we can't sit down and play one of these dream 3D games, because they don't exist. .

For the love of god people, play Silent Storm and 7,62 High Calibre , those two alone prove that 3d environments and dynamic cameras add tactical depth to rpgs.

 

[Sarathiour]

You are literally being baited by someone named jester

 

[Ladonna]

I have played Silent Storm, Sentinels and Hammer and Sickle. All of them are favourites of mine. That being said, it has been 16 years since H&S was released. 16 years, and what have they done? Jack Shit. I could see the possibilities with those games, but nobody has bothered to build upon them, so we don't really have anything to discuss in the 3D realm.

I haven't played 7.62. How does this game compare to Jagged Alliance 2 and the Silent Storm games?

 

[Dodo1610]

The author is wrong on so many details it's kind of impressive.
Good looking HD isometric graphics are far more expensive than 3d and require much more work. Pathfinder is 3D in order to save money while Deadfire must have wasted lots of money to just create the illusion of 2D.

 

[barghwata]

I haven't played 7.62. How does this game compare to Jagged Alliance 2 and the Silent Storm games?

It's not at the level of JA2 obviously, since JA combines both strategy and tactics in its gameplay, it's closer to Silent Storm in that it focuses more on mission based tactical combat but i personally think it's superior to SS, it employs a real-time with pause combat which i generally hate but in this game it works perfectly, and its levels are alot more vast and intricately designed then the generally smaller/more claustrophobic levels of silent storm.

Unfotunatley having been made by a small studio of russians who probably used half the budget on vodka, it suffers from a lack of polish but if you can get past that it's definitely worth it.

 

[Ol' Willy]

I haven't played 7.62. How does this game compare to Jagged Alliance 2 and the Silent Storm games?

It's RTwP

 

[Nifft Batuff]

This "article" looks like it has been written in 2005.

 

[Harthwain]

Go and play Jagged Alliance 2 for an example of what can be done in 2D when it comes to interactivity and "cool stuff".

I think 3D games have more potential for that sort of shit. That's my point. Just because there was a great 2D game 20 years ago, doesn't mean 2D is just straight up better.

It means 2D isn't automatically inferior to 3D though, even when it comes to "physicality of the battlefield". And in a lot of games you don't really need 3D, because very few games use the actual physics or simulation of any sort, so in the end it all comes down to being an aesthetic choice and not much else.

 

[Ladonna]

This "article" looks like it has been written in 2005.

The same article with a few twists has been written since the 80's.

"Goldbox games are dated. They should all be Eye of the Beholder! Muh Grapix!" Just add in different games over time.

 

[NotSerious]

I have time for both.

I enjoy the mechanics of isometric, it lends itself well to slower more thoughtful styles of play. Additionally, I also the immersion granted by first person perspective RPGs.

We can have both.

 

[Bad Sector]

This "article" looks like it has been written in 2005.

Indeed, reminds me around 2005 or so i was in an indie gamedev forum where pretty much everyone worked on 2D games and at some point someone registered to ask if anyone is working on real games with 3D graphics instead of 2D :-P

 

[Saduj]

You don't have to register on that site to rate the article or the comments. The article has 1.29/5 stars and "Jester" is getting destroyed in the comments both in quality of arguments and net upvote/downvotes.

At first I thought "Wow, maybe most people out there aren't actual agents of decline". Then, I saw the comment calling POE 2 a great game had a net -4 rating and realized these ratings are coming from you guys.

 

[The Jester]

You don't have to register on that site to rate the article or the comments. The article has 1.29/5 stars and "Jester" is getting destroyed in the comments both in quality of arguments and net upvote/downvotes.

At first I thought "Wow, maybe most people out there aren't actual agents of decline". Then, I saw the comment calling POE 2 a great game had a net -4 rating and realized these ratings are coming from you guys.

No, that comment had a negative rating even before I posted the article here.
And it isn't "Deadfire is a great game"
It's "Deadfire is one of the best games of the decade."

 

[AwesomeButton]

Today I was looking for some NWN mods when I accidentally found this gold mine.
Please gentlemen, let's take a look at this prestigious article, shall we? :D

<< Retarded Article >>

DarkUnderlord , the Codex should start and offshot crappy wordpress blog where we post the most retarded and logically incoherent rants from our General RPG section. Apparently you will be making decent cash from clickbait before you know it.

 

[urmom]

D:OS and W:2+3 look like third-rate comic book dogshit. Sorry, all you Larian/inXile fanbois!

Not saying 3D is bad but those are awful ugly examples.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I thought WL3 looked good.

 

[DeepOcean]

2.5 with fixed camera allows for much more thoughtful level design than it will ever be possible in isometric 3D. Whether developers can take advantage of it is another story.

Zooming has nothing to do with this, and the only reason you'd want to rotate the camera is because the designers have designed their game in such a way to require it.
It adds nothing.

Meh, codex is clearly full of old grognards stuck in 1992, Silent Storm shits on any of your favorite 2.5D isometric games in terms of level design and it's in no small part due to it being 3D, and no it's not just about "climbing ladders" or anything that 2.5d can simulate



2.5D and 3D both have their places, if you're going for timeless visuals and a good atmosphere then go 2.5 but if you're going for something more intricate in terms of level design, verticality and mechanics etc.... then 3D is clearly superior and anyone denying this is simply living in fantasyland.

I would argue that Silent Storm actually has gameplay features that need this type of camera as it is a tactics focused game of a larger scale than a typical cRPG fight, tactics games are focused more on the enviroment the fight is happening as the numbers of combatents are larger and spread over a typically larger area than of a typical cRPG encounter.

cRPG encounters are different, they are less focused on the enviroment and more on the unique abilities the enemies and party have, as you are dealing with lesser numbers on more enclosed spaces, it becomes feasable to worry in detail what each enemy and party unit is doing in detail including special abilities, spells and etc.

It is actually two different kinds of approach to encounter design and a fixed camera is the best option for cRPGs while tactics games with verticality, explosive walls, complex fog of war behavior and etc are better with a free camera. The reason a fixed camera on cRPGs are better is because you are supposedly to pay close attention to what a very few units are doing on a smaller area and a free camera doesnt make this kind of control better, it only adds annoyance. It is also a question of play spaces, a dungeon is not the same play space of a war torn city block.

 

[laclongquan]

The youtube guys generally dont know enough about any highly skilled explosive throwers with high ENG skill will blow everything skyhigh.

Pyromaniacs for the win!

 

[urmom]

Original x-com had 3D verticality... In 1994.

Not understanding this argument.

It's true. But I still prefer Silent Storm systems to X-COM systems. (Ignoring stupid story, short campaigns and Panzerkleins.)

Also, rotatable camera was not an annoyance in ATOM:RPG. And Homeworld series is sorta tactical and makes good use of 3D.

So it is on a game-by-game basis. Some games just suck whether they are 2D or 3D.

Some of the 3D First and Third person RPG's moved the bar forward a little, but haven't really gone anywhere much since Gothic 1 and 2 were released. Often they have actually went backwards from these titles. I agree there is plenty of potential, but until these games surface, it is only potential.

I agree, many things have gone backward since early 2000s pioneers except poly counts and texture sizes. Even Homeworld series went backwards. But financially most of the games we're talking about were failures or just 'meh' at best. And modern games that are 'innovative' and successful tend to be gimmicky one-trick ponies that just do the one thing and nothing else. (Even if they do that one thing very well.) I'm thinking of stuff like Minecraft, Mirror's Edge, Portal and FEZ.

I guess when compared to 1980s/1990s console games things haven't really changed that much...

 

[urmom]

I.e. maybe things have returned to 'normalcy' and late 1990s/early 2000s were the aberration.

 

[deuxhero]

the only reason you'd want to rotate the camera is because the designers have designed their game in such a way to require it.

Also true. BG and PoE are obviously designed so you don't have to rotate the camera (because you can't). I guess to me it just feels weird when all doors are facing the same way, you can't search behind anything, you can't enter a building via a back window, etc. A 3D world just feels much more interactive to me, and I'm happy to pay the price of having to rotate the camera.

This is not true for Beregost, which is really bad from a gameplay prospective.