Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Why the insistence from devs on changing PnP rules to cRPG??

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
10,578
Location
Frostfell
I understand that there are some limitations on computers and you can't improvise and that spells like Raise island is almost impossible to be translated to an computer. The same happens when you try to adapt an book into an movie or series. But is really good to adapt when is not a necessity? To name few examples :

On NWN1(neverwinter nights 1)
  1. Arcane Archers can only imbue fire, on pnp they can imbue other elements, it killed the class due the insane amount of fire resistent/immune mobs that you encounter on OC, on HotU and most custom modules.
  2. Pale masters giving no caster level, making an pale master an useless class
  3. Conjuration limited to one summon. It not only helps to kill pale masters, but also kills wizards specialized on conjuration. Mainly because time stop and the best spells are on opposite school on the game.
  4. Monks that on pnp receive the "outsider template" when they reach lv 20 and on the game, despite the playing being able to get the outsider template when use an shapeshift spell, he can't get the outsider template as an monk and there are items who require outsider to be used on hotu expansion. Don't get me wrong, monks when multiclassed can be insane deadly, but the raw monk is IMO not that impressive.
NWN1 is my favorite D&D game, but could be much better if they din't had changed some rules. And what is the most famous NWN mod? PRC, an module that tries to make the game more pnp like.

On Pathfinder Kingmaker. Is my favorite modern cRPG, but could be much better. Some alterations that they did and why are bad :

  1. Sneak attack. If an spell X deals A ranged touch attacks, on PnP, only one sneak attack bonus is applied. On PfK, is applied to all A spells. Considering that they changed the sneak attack to be more easily to get, it made sneak attack OP. I was playing relative well with an 3 party members, but on Wild Hunt, got forced to play with an full party and part of the reason is the sneak attack.
  2. The range of certain spells. While Horrid Wilting have 400 feet + 40 feet / caster level range on pnp, the range of the spell range is nerfed on PfK and is so nerfed that is almost impossible to use the spell without hurting party members. One of my favorite spells become ultra situational thanks to that.
Don't get me wrong. Pathfinder Kingmaker still has a lot of merits and is an amazing game. Most sorcerer bloodlines are well represented in the game, with minor adaptations, for eg, undead bloodline DR is not against non lethal damage since it doesn't exist in the game, But even abilities restricted to one bloodline got implemented into the game, for eg Incorporeal Form Other amazing thing that PfK did is that there are no "you can only have one summon BS" rule(images on spoilers)

ZpD2jFz.jpg




Ts7JWLe.jpg

Sure, not all summons are in the game. You can summon succubus for eg. But the game is close enough to pnp to make certain class fantasies like an necromancer with undead army possible, an class fantasy that other games who restricted artificially the summons can't offer.

And 3.5e/pathfinder already has an limitations to summon. You can't control more than your caster level * 2 HD worth of creatures. Is not like in certain games where you can control an planetar and 4 efreets but can't control 6 skeletons.

Now i see Larian coments about BG3 and

"The very obvious one would be that you tend to miss a lot when you roll the dice, which is fine when you’re playing on the tabletop, but it’s not so cool when you’re playing a video game,”https://www.pcgamer.com/baldurs-gat...-divinity-and-dandd-5th-edition/#comment-jump

Missing obvious not work on video games?
Missing obvious worked on BG1, BG2, IWD1, IWD2, NWN1, NWN2, P:K, ToEE, etc; and even on games not based on tabletop such as Daggerfall, Morrowind, Diablo 1, Diablo 2, Might & Magic VI-VIII <<<insert more 6000 RPG"s>>> And to remove missing, you need to re write everything. Not only melee combat, ranged combat, offensive magic, buffs, summons ,etc; and even feats needs to be re done, not mentioning, enemy hp. If you PC is only hitting 5% of time, don't put an death knigth with the best armor in the workd to an lv 1 party deal with him. Now about leveling

Dungeons and Dragons’ leveling system is too slow for Baldur’s Gate 3
http://nuclearcoffee.org/dungeons-and-dragons-leveling-system-is-too-slow-for-baldurs-gate-3/

Leveling is one of the best aspects of D&D, on my solo DD IWD run, my char goes from running from Goblins that succeed the save against charm to stopping time, nuking havok, conjuring an efreet army and etc. Of course, needs to take an long time, because level cap should represents that there are no longer more room to improvement.

And even spell slots
"have talked about how spell slots might not be the most intuitive thing. One of the things with Dungeons and Dragons, which I think is very important, is the method by which we do things is not as important for tabletop players as the actual effect on the table.”"https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/dungeons-and-dragons-6th-edition

Spell slots on the way that Dark Souls 2 presented leads to some “decisions”, for example, Forbidden Sun, the strongest pyromancy that literally creates an mini sun and trows at the enemy, Insane deadly and deals AOE damage. What is the problem? Is behind an long quest and takes 3 attenument slots ( search the wikia, i can’t post links) So the ‘charname’ needs to make an choice. What is best? Be able to throw 3 forbidden suns with 43 ATN and Hexer hood or be able to throw 20+ fire orbs? And there are no easy solution. In some situations, quality is better than quantity and in others, quantity is better than quality.

-------------------------------

Sword Coast Legends tried to remove missing, remove DC, change leveling, add BS mechanics like cooldown and the studio got bankrupted. Why devs still wanna change rules that can easily be implemented? I an not talking about Wish or Raise Island.
 

Jenkem

お前はもう死んでいる
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Nov 30, 2016
Messages
8,073
Location
An oasis of love and friendship.
Make the Codex Great Again! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I helped put crap in Monomyth
because computer games are played differently than tabletop games, because computer generated RNG is not as random as dice rolls, etc.

this is a dumb topic. it's like comparing films to literature, they are completely different media and are engaged with differently.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
10,578
Location
Frostfell
because computer games are played differently than tabletop games, because computer generated RNG is not as random as dice rolls, etc.

this is a dumb topic. it's like comparing films to literature, they are completely different media and are engaged with differently.

No, is not an dumb topic. As i've mentioned, all examples of rule alterations that i saw resulted in worst games(see the many examples that i've posted) and the ultimate example, SCL. Do you have an example of an game changing the rules and making the game better? just one example?
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
10,578
Location
Frostfell

Yes, they have much pride and think that can do an better job than an 50 yo system...

The problem with adaptations is not just from pnp to cRPG. From books to movies, there are a lot of producers that did awful adaptations.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
10,578
Location
Frostfell

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
10,578
Location
Frostfell
Name one. Please. Just one.

AC

wow that was easy

No, Armor Classi s a good rule. Armor class is much better than in this generic mmos where armor determines your charname's iq/muscle mass and absorbs an damage by percentage, but everyone needs to be impaled 50 times in the head to die... And the damage absorption doesn't matter if is an blunt poor quality blunt sword or an warhammer. D&D did armor right. If you have an sword and the enemy plate armor, is very unlike that you will land an hit. That makes perfectly sense.
 

glass blackbird

Learned
Patron
Joined
Apr 9, 2015
Messages
664
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
weird how in your paean to accurate tabletop adaptations you picked a bunch of realtime bullshit

it has seriously been really funny to me how larian saying that stuff has made people pretend that perfect accuracy is good by holding up stuff like NWN as good games.
 

Urthor

Liturgist
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2015
Messages
1,840
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Because customers insist on throwing massive piles of money at anyone who can succesfully make a brand claim that it's "just like the pen and paper they've already learnt and not some newfangled thing like Pillars of Eternity"

That's why.
 
Unwanted
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,711
Codex Year of the Donut
Lots of shit rules + many rules don't translate well to video game RPGs + digital medium allows for things that would otherwise be impossible in pnp RPGs(e.g., essentially all pnp RPGs dumb down/"streamline" their ruleset to speed up play.)
People who insist upon video games being nothing but digital version of tabletop games are luddites. If it was up to you people there would be no such thing as cinematography, every movie/tv show/etc., would just be a direct adaptation of a book with people standing infront of a camera reading their lines and doing nothing else.
 

adrix89

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
700
Location
Why are there so many of my country here?
In a PnP RPG the GM can perfectly tailor the encounters and challenge to the party.

In a cRPG everything has to be scripted beforehand and developers cannot account for all things.

Some things might also be bothersome to implement and gets cut/simplified.
 
Unwanted
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,711
Codex Year of the Donut

The Avatar

Pseudodragon Studios
Developer
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
336
Location
The United States of America
Its partially because the d&d rules are complex, programming is hard, and budgets are limited. There are so many dumb little rules in 3.5, it would be impractical to implement it all.
The other part is the designers wanting to contribute something to make their product unique. Why stick to core rules when you can add new stuff? Sometimes this works well, like adding some interesting feats/spells. Other times it falls flat, like the parry skill.

And of course, developers have felt the need to use rtwp just because that's what baldurs gate did.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
10,578
Location
Frostfell
weird how in your paean to accurate tabletop adaptations you picked a bunch of realtime bullshit

it has seriously been really funny to me how larian saying that stuff has made people pretend that perfect accuracy is good by holding up stuff like NWN as good games.

PnP is turn based due limitations. And yes, NWN is much better than D:OS2, sure NWN has his problems. But at least i don't see BS mechanics like cooldowns on NWN. But IMO Pathfinder Kingmaker is the best modern CRPG. IMO PfK > PoE 2 > D:OS2


n a PnP RPG the GM can perfectly tailor the encounters and challenge to the party.

In a cRPG everything has to be scripted beforehand and developers cannot account for all things.

Some things might also be bothersome to implement and gets cut/simplified.

Using that logic, you see no problem if an cRPG forces you to be an human/fighter/lawful good and pick the feats that the dev want because you can trivialize some encounters with other build. Right?

a lot of PnP rules suck ass and should be sent to the sun

Name one. Please. Just one.
Are we limiting ourselves to a specific D&D edition?
I nominate D&D3.5e Pun-pun, the level 1 kobold with infinite ability scores, all spells, and all psionic powers. Completely RAW, using only WotC books.

Except that the rules was written expecting the PC to role play the build/decisions. Some multiclassing that is very common on NWN1 MP would never be allowed by an DM in a tabletop game. In a SP game, if the guy wanna power gaming and ignore the RP, is his choice. If he having fun? His fun is prejudicing others?

Here is an interestig video with an power gaming in another tabletop game(VtM(



Why stick to core rules when you can add new stuff? Sometimes this works well, like adding some interesting feats/spells. Other times it falls flat, like the parry skill.

And of course, developers have felt the need to use rtwp just because that's what baldurs gate did.

The problem is that they don't add new things. They kill things already present. Like necromancy/conjuration that was destroyed on NWN1. Like warlock on NWN2(without the pnp mod)
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
10,578
Location
Frostfell
a lot of PnP rules suck ass and should be sent to the sun

Name one. Please. Just one.

How about 5?

Level Adjustment.
XP penalties for multiclassing.
Diplomacy.
Leadership and cohorts.
Epic spells. Actually, most of the epic level handbook.

Level adjustment is a way to make sure that if the player wanna play as an half dragon, he will not be OP compared to others with the same XP.
XP penalties for multiclassing makes sense. Is like someone trying to graduate two courses at the same time compared to an normal person.
Diplomacy - Why is bad?
Leadership - Why is bad?
Epic spells - They are amazing. Raise Island for eg is an amazing spell. Sadly most campaigns doesn't happens on epic levels.
 

Syme

Savant
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
321
a lot of PnP rules suck ass and should be sent to the sun

Name one. Please. Just one.

How about 5?

Level Adjustment.
XP penalties for multiclassing.
Diplomacy.
Leadership and cohorts.
Epic spells. Actually, most of the epic level handbook.

Level adjustment is a way to make sure that if the player wanna play as an half dragon, he will not be OP compared to others with the same XP.
XP penalties for multiclassing makes sense. Is like someone trying to graduate two courses at the same time compared to an normal person.
Diplomacy - Why is bad?
Leadership - Why is bad?
Epic spells - They are amazing. Raise Island for eg is an amazing spell. Sadly most campaigns doesn't happens on epic levels.

Dude if you don't know why every single one of the above are broken, then you're either retarded or arguing in bad faith. In either case I'm not gonna explain myself and simply redirect you to a google search. It's been discussed to death on every single d&d board in existence during the last 15 years.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
10,578
Location
Frostfell
Dude if you don't know why every single one of the above are broken, then you're either retarded or arguing in bad faith. In either case I'm not gonna explain myself and simply redirect you to a google search. It's been discussed to death on every single d&d board in existence during the last 15 years.

No, i know most of point, I know that LA in low levels and high levels are completely different. And that epic spells DC's can be broken by paying XP and extra casting time that can negate 440 DC when casting the spell. But this is not an problem of the epic spell itself, if the fact that you can reduce the DC relative easily. epic spell DC mitigation is too easily abusable. That is the problem. The epic spells itself have no problem. If the PC is trying to cast an spell above what Mystra allows mortal to cast, he should be very unlikely to succeed. So, yes, i agree that there are problems on 3.5e, but even as pnp rules "describes". Is hard to port spells like Raise Island to cRPG.
 

Yosharian

Magister
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
7,517
Location
Hammerfell
Lots of shit rules + many rules don't translate well to video game RPGs + digital medium allows for things that would otherwise be impossible in pnp RPGs(e.g., essentially all pnp RPGs dumb down/"streamline" their ruleset to speed up play.)
People who insist upon video games being nothing but digital version of tabletop games are luddites. If it was up to you people there would be no such thing as cinematography, every movie/tv show/etc., would just be a direct adaptation of a book with people standing infront of a camera reading their lines and doing nothing else.
Like missing in combat?
 

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
10,393
Location
Flowery Land
The Sneak Attack thing in Kingmaker is because it's in an otherwise obscure FAQ, has absolutely no basis in the rules (it's errata but not errata), and was how it worked in 3.5.
 

Yosharian

Magister
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
7,517
Location
Hammerfell
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,874,407
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
If you have an sword and the enemy plate armor, is very unlike that you will land an hit. That makes perfectly sense. [...] XP penalties for multiclassing makes sense. Is like someone trying to graduate two courses at the same time compared to an normal person.

Making sense doesn't necessarily mean it makes for good gameplay, especially when it's an adaptation. (see: money having weight)
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Top Bottom