Why was BG2. . . subpar?

[Montez]

Besides the Ring of Charisma, didn't the system just take the highest charisma score of anyone in your party and just use that for dialogue and buying/selling, no matter who actually initiated the dialogue? Either way, it's pretty bad when you know there's one stat that you can set as low as possible and have it not affect the game in any way.

 

[Psilon]

No, it was whoever actually did the talking. This is why my low-WIS mage was unable to con the Spectator Beholder. However, upon seeing the journal entry, I realized that all I needed to do was have Aerie fast-talk the guy. Never mind that despite her cleric-induced wisdom score she wasn't portrayed as a con artist type.

 

[Volourn]

However, you don't know about the ring until after the first time through. Only powergamers would "plan" for it.

Just like powergamers would plan ahead for the stat increasing disks, and the super armour in the Fo games.

Go figure.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Just like powergamers would plan ahead for the stat increasing disks, and the super armour in the Fo games.

No, no, no. PA is found much much later in Fallout, while 18 Cha ring is found very early, thus making it very easy for powergamers to restart right away and make some adjustments. It's an example of an extremely stupid design to give a player an item that max an attribute in the beginning of a game, don't you think? There is no comparison to Fallout here, so don't even go there.

 

[Volourn]

Sorry, I couldn't care less what powergamers do. It's their game, and their issue.

 

[Astromarine]

fair enough, but at least you agree that by finding that ring and not using it you are forcefully limiting your own character, right? Or do you simply roll a character and take whatever CHA it got, then use the ring or not depending? This I could see and understand.

 

[Psilon]

Your Bhaalspawn may not use the ring, but I'll bet someone in your party does. There aren't that many magic rings at the beginning of the game. Given that, it'd be stupid not to make that party member your spokesman.

Anyway, I'm not really a powergaming type in most RPGs, but I can definitely say that I would have restarted had I not been playing an import character. Until I got the hang of things I restarted BG1 at least four times.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sorry, I couldn't care less what powergamers do. It's their game, and their issue.

The ring is not about power gaming, it's about making an actual attribute pointless by substituting it with an item.

 

[Psilon]

Agreed. If the ring had a negative which was easily circumvented, then it'd be powergaming. Like the Boots of Blinding Speed in Morrowind (which I know you hate): Fortify Speed 200pts, Blind 100% on self. But if you made a five-second Resist Magicka 100% spell and cast it immediately before equipping the Boots, you'd get the speed boost with no ill effects until you reequipped them--and then you could cast again. That's powergaming. Using a stat nullifier in the way it's intended, and then designing your character to take full advantage of that item, is simple strategy, like tagging Energy Weapons at level 12, or pumping up Small Guns in expectation of Gauss weaponry.

 

[Volourn]

Astro, it's the latter. I make the character as I see him, or her; and decide if the ring would be sueful as it fits the character. People restarting a game after finding it is very much powergaming no matter how you slice it. I don't know how it can be disputed.

 

[Montez]

I'm not really talking about powergaming - I just think that after all the thought you put into your character concept, trying to sort out your stats and balance them for your character, getting a ring that sets one of them to 18 right off the bat is awful. It pretty much says "You wasted your time thinking about this like a D&D game and thinking you would be role playing anything". If I get something that powerful that early on, I can guess that all my stats are gonna be 18 or above after a few hours. You don't need to powergame in BGII, because it does it for you.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Astro, it's the latter. I make the character as I see him, or her; and decide if the ring would be sueful as it fits the character. People restarting a game after finding it is very much powergaming no matter how you slice it. I don't know how it can be disputed.

What character wouldn't it be useful to, though? Other than one with a Charisma that's already 18? There really isn't much in the way of a legitimate role-playing reason as to why you wouldn't keep a ring that would greatly allow you to influence the decisions of others, and make you instantly more liked.

We're talking a no-strings-attached deal here. You wear the ring, more people love you. Downside? None, really.

 

[Voss]

Oh, another thing thats poorly done in BG2 (and all the IE games for that matter, as well as NWN.)

The sense of scale-

its completely non-existant. Furniture seems built for giants, and areas get wacky quick. Interiors of buildings particularly. Its odd when you consider that Irenicus's dungeon/torture pit is larger than Waukeen's Promenade. Yes its something that can be ignored, but sometimes it just leaps out at me and is really jarring.

 

[Psilon]

BG1 wasn't as bad about this, but trying to navigate something like Firewine Bridge with a full party was so irritating they widened the passages in later games. Heaven forbid they get the pathfinding right instead.

 

[Voss]

Maybe. But I'm convinced that all doors in BG2 have some sort of fear effect on them from the way half the party runs off in a random direction once someone passes through them.

But yeah, pathfinding...heh.

But, by scale I meant the fact that a lot of building interiors turned out to be the size of city blocks.

 

[Psilon]

For a real example of that check out Neverwinter. Those building interiors are HUGE.

 

[Voss]

Oh I know. I always felt like I was in Jack and the Beanstalk.
There really isn't anyway to ignore it in NWN... You could fit a half-orc in some of those chests. Though the worst was the gang warehouse in the zombie area of the city... that thing went on for miles. And the third shelf of the storage racks were level with the characters head.

Stupid camera angle.

 

[roguefrog]

Its odd when you consider that Irenicus's dungeon/torture pit is larger than Waukeen's Promenade. Yes its something that can be ignored, but sometimes it just leaps out at me and is really jarring.

Whos to say it has to fit the area of Waukeen's Promenade? It's underground so it could expand beyond that limit.

 

[Voss]

It doesn't have to fit...

its just that an underground lair (which has to be dug out, etc.) shouldn't be larger than the main market place of a major mercantile city. Theres a sheer measure of practicality involved. If it was an extra-planar space like the djinn's part, it would be one thing...but no, it was a huge structure off a sewer tunnel.

 

[roguefrog]

So you're effectively saying if I decided to build an underground lair (which I might), it can't be larger than the main market place of a major mercantile city? Is that some kind of silly rule or law?

 

[Voss]

Is it confusing how blindingly stupid things can destroy the immersion in a game?
Or is it just simpler not to think?

 

[roguefrog]

What your saying though makes no sense. It's underground so theres nothing contending with it for space. I fail to see how it destroy's immersion other than thinking it has to fit within the market place area which is above ground and irrelevant.

 

[Voss]

Fine, go build a large underground space. Come back after the 10 years it'll take you, presuming that the ground and buildings above you don't collapse on you and kill you in the process.

It has nothing to do with fitting in the size of the marketplace. It has to do with it being huge, labor intensive, and within the existing underground construction, which will be littered with sewer tunnels, basements and the buried remnants of older periods of habitation. And its supposed to be secret, so no one, including monsters, sewer workers and small boys named Kevin that happen to be passing by should notice this honking great construction project.

Fantasy does not equal doing anything you please, regardless of common sense or the setting it exists in.

If it doesn't bother you, fine. Feel free to ignore it.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I believe the problem with Irenicus' dungeon was:

Credibility - Having a dungeon, where you torture people and their screams can be heard, right next to a promenade, is quite inneficient when it comes to secrecy.

Practicality - Would you believe an underground complex excavated below the promenade would not make the Promenade collapse? It appears to be built right below it, and was probably carved out of the Promenade's foundations. Even if it wasn't centered on the Promenade, it was below some other part of the city, making it a bit impossible when it comes to holding its own structure.

Credibitlity, Part 2 - Why doesn't an underground complex with magic being used attract the attention of the Cowled Wizards/Enforcers?

 

[Spazmo]

You all raise valid points vis a vis Irenicus' dungeon. However, you seem to be forgetting something: it's Dungeons and Dragons! Crazy-ass, implausible dungeons are a core component of the genre!