[WIP] Thirst, a Dragon Age mod focused on C&C

[sea]

So I realize this has been kind of dead for a while now, and that's partially because I haven't done much work on the mod due to other projects (messing with UDK, writing stuff, etc.) in the last while. I also started to suffer a lack of motivation and inspiration, and I think a break helped a bit.

In any case, I've started work on this again. Step 1 is to go back and improve some of the environments which suffered flaws I may have overlooked earlier. I feel that I've grown in ability as a level designer, and so am trying to get far away from the "series of boxes" school of thought by putting more focus on differences in elevation, as well as in greater amounts of detailing where necessary (depends on the location of course). Tweaking atmosphere is also a priority, though in some locations this may be impossible due to the Toolset's crappy lightmapper which makes small indoor spaces very difficult. First example:

Before:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10680698/Pictur ... ceptre.jpg

After:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10680698/Pictur ... -37-53.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10680698/Pictur ... -06-88.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10680698/Pictur ... -31-75.jpg

Step 2 is to rework quests and rewrite the majority of dialogue, as looking back on it I'm not satisfied both with the quality and the sheer quantity of it. I kind of started the mod after a Torment binge and realize now my goals were unrealistic both due to my skill as a writer and the sheer amount of work that would be. Instead I'm going for something closer to the original Fallout - lots of options, but dialogue is grounded in reality rather than attempting to be "dramatic" or anything along those lines, as I just can't really pull it off very effectively... otherwise it just sounds like David Gaider crap.

Step 3 is to tone down the consequence side of things. I still plan to have consequence in decisions, but they will be more limited to a few key plot details. I have to work within limitations and I feel fewer consequences is best for that. In its place however, I plan to include even more decisions to make and options in resolving quests, with simpler goals more open to interpretation by the player, i.e. obtain an object, and then have, say, 4-5 ways to do it. As an example, to get into a guarded location, you can 1) Pickpocket an item allowing you entry 2) Lure someone to a secluded location and kill them for the item 3) Collaborate with an insider to get access 4) With sufficient knowledge of magic, bypass the door 5) Simply go in using violence and force. Same end result? Yes. But the options are unique to different character builds and make the play-through feel appropriate to that build, and there will still be consequences even if they are more cosmetic (i.e. avoiding violence will avoid triggering an alarm and give you new options later on).

In any case, I hope I can keep momentum up. I definitely feel like I'm ready to jump back into things now that I've had a mental breather and more time to think things through, at the very least.

 

[DwarvenFood]

Good luck on this one, sea - hope it will be of same critical acclaim as Dances with Rogues

 

[sea]

I never played that. All I can find on it is a bunch of shit about tasteful rape and prostitution crap. I think I'd kind of like to avoid direct comparison.

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

When you say "focuses on C&C", how much C&C are we talking? Can you give a non-spoilerish but explanatory example, sea?

 

[sea]

When you say "focuses on C&C", how much C&C are we talking? Can you give a non-spoilerish but explanatory example, sea?

As I've said in the "revival" post, I'm toning down the choice and consequence a little just so actually making this thing is viable to me - I'll worry about adding more of that stuff once the basics are down more solidly. Basically, though, there's stuff like different companion characters depending on who you choose to help (both main and side quest related), there's quests that can be solved in advance through exploration or doing other quests, that sort of thing. I want consequences to be "felt" but ultimately I'm going more Fallout than Planescape at this point, where there are smaller-scale consequences to actions, but it's more about the choices you're given that appeal to your particular character. The world will, hopefully, feel interconnected, with decisions influencing other things in ways you might not anticipate; I'm not an incredible storyteller by any means, so I can't promise riveting tales of excellence and drama or whatever, but I do hope to provide that feeling of direct impact on the game world that a lot of other RPGs these days lack.

To give an example, you might be asked by one merchant to investigate another, as he suspects that merchant of being fraudulent to the point of severely harming his own business, starting a side-quest. You can then go investigate the merchant, where you can use different skills to get the information you need, or, if you aren't competent, be given false information. You then bring it back to the quest giver, who depending on your earlier means of information gathering could end up being killed by hired goons, or getting what he needs to expose the other guy, or deciding it's a sign of the times and that he should retire. Heck, you can even turn on him and frame him if you want. Later on in the main story you'll find out certain connections between that merchant and more powerful, higher-up people... again, depending on how you handled it, they might be pissed at you and try to kill you, they might even congratulate you for taking care of their problem. This in turn will determine what sort of information you can get out of them, and contributes to how the encounter goes. Even further later on in the game, when trying to expose someone else, your experience in that quest can also help you provide evidence of corruption or similar.

That said, it's not as if you'll be seeing any massive new locations, or the villains will change, or anything like that. I just don't have the resources to pull off such a thing, but I'm hoping at least for a decent length of 4-5 hours, and some replay value to boot.

 

[sea]

Just a quick update. I've written up the custom backgrounds and put them into the game. They determine your starting abilities, attributes and skills, as well as adding a few flavour dialogue options here and there. While I don't have as many as I'd like, and they aren't exactly Arcanum-ridiculous, they give a lot more flexibility than the standard Dragon Age ones as they are mostly race- and class-independent. Also made up a new character stage for the creation screen and party picker.

Caravan Guard
You've spent the better part of your years protecting trade caravans on highways all across Thedas, whether that was by way of negotiation or combat. After your last job met with disaster in a raid, you were the only one left alive. Though the road is your calling, that road, for now, seems to lead you back to the city. A world-weary individual, you are patient and wise with your words, but quick with a blade.

Sheltered Academic
Much of your childhood was spent buried in tomes and performing your own hobbyist experiments, rather than frolicking in the sun with your friends. In fact, you really didn't have any, but then, who needs them when you have learning to do? Though socially stunted and physically below average, your studious nature has imparted you with knowledge of alchemy and technology.

Survivalist
You've never got along well with people, or civilization for that matter. As a child, you set out on your own into the wilderness, free from the confines of society, but lacking in many of the benefits that come with it. Life has been hard, and you have the scars to prove it. Your rough, lonely years have taught you to both fight and live off the land.

Swindler
Your parents were never around to teach you right from wrong... not that you ever needed them. The city streets are a cruel place, but you didn't just survive in them, you thrived. Deceit, manipulation and subterfuge are your game. Pockets surrender their loose coin to you without fuss, and people have a habit of spilling their secrets when you're around.

Retired Soldier
Army life's tough. Though you made a name for yourself ending more lives than you had drawn breaths, eventually you met your match at the end of a warhammer. A few smashed ribs didn't finish you, but it was enough to make you think long and hard about your career as a killer. Though you've since put down your sword, your military training and experience have left you with knowledge of battle, from weaponry to tactics.

Apostate Mage
Like most mages, you found yourself a victim of the Chantry's abuses. Imprisoned since childhood, you never took a liking to your captors or their philosophy of oppression. After banding together with a group of other mages, you were able to lead a revolt and escape from the Templars' grip. Your experiences have taught you to do battle with words and magic alike.

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

ending more lives than you had drawn breaths

That's an absolutely batshit insane hyperbole.
In a good way.

 

[sea]

Progress update. Rewrote a quest that I wasn't happy with. My goal for Thirst is to avoid "side-quests" in the typical sense - every quest, no matter how initially innocuous, ties into the main storyline in some way. That means no "kill the bandits", "get me X item" or anything unless it's justified in the story. Though it's not a particularly long quest, the number of options available and the fact that the player can change allegiances during it leads to some very tricky work with handling certain variables and conversation structures.

Aside from that, I've been spending time going through the old environments and sprucing them up with new props and lighting (the latter of which takes a very long time, owing to the Toolset's slow-ass and shitty lightmapper). On top of that, I decided the Market District was too vacant and so I significantly changed its layout, and built several new buildings piece-by-piece to help fill the area out. I'm still tweaking stuff but I'm pretty happy with the results.

http://i.imgur.com/79leG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Mpv9U.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/n5R1L.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/J1MM7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vPBwo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5XKFu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/oQYlm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nSvQG.jpg

 

[Green Fairy]

Step 1 is to go back and improve some of the environments which suffered flaws I may have overlooked earlier. I feel that I've grown in ability as a level designer, and so am trying to get far away from the "series of boxes" school of thought by putting more focus on differences in elevation

Don't think DAO's engine will help you much there. If you make a bridge, for example, you get to choose whether characters can walk over or under it, but they won't be able to do both. DA pathing is stupid that way.

Step 2 is to rework quests and rewrite the majority of dialogue, as looking back on it I'm not satisfied both with the quality and the sheer quantity of it. I kind of started the mod after a Torment binge and realize now my goals were unrealistic both due to my skill as a writer and the sheer amount of work that would be. Instead I'm going for something closer to the original Fallout - lots of options, but dialogue is grounded in reality rather than attempting to be "dramatic" or anything along those lines, as I just can't really pull it off very effectively... otherwise it just sounds like David Gaider crap.

You can also do more nonverbal storytelling, like using environment design to tell parts of the story.

In any case, I hope I can keep momentum up. I definitely feel like I'm ready to jump back into things now that I've had a mental breather and more time to think things through, at the very least.

Good luck. I'd like to see it finished.

ending more lives than you had drawn breaths

That's an absolutely batshit insane hyperbole.
In a good way.

No, a bad way. That's the kind of hyperbole that makes your eyes roll. Also, you should avoid writing backgrounds that sound like your character should start at max level.

Sheltered Academic
Much of your childhood was spent buried in tomes and performing your own hobbyist experiments, rather than frolicking in the sun with your friends. In fact, you really didn't have any, but then, who needs them when you have learning to do? Though socially stunted and physically below average, your studious nature has imparted you with knowledge of alchemy and technology.

Sounds cheesy. I'd rather write something like "but that never bothered you anyway."

Guessing this is Rogue/Mage only. For the mage class, would this be a circle mage? If so, I'd have the circle mage be slightly more social because of lore: The circle is the place for a sheltered academic, so your character actually had like-minded individuals to speak with.

Apostate Mage
Like most mages, you found yourself a victim of the Chantry's abuses. Imprisoned since childhood, you never took a liking to your captors or their philosophy of oppression. After banding together with a group of other mages, you were able to lead a revolt and escape from the Templars' grip. Your experiences have taught you to do battle with words and magic alike.

The Survivalist mage is an apostate too, so I'd just call this one Rebel Mage. Sounds cooler, anyway.

Also: How are you handling the Persuade and Intimidate skills? The main game's Coercion tree made them too easy to obtain to be meaningful. Are you splitting them back up, boosting stat requirements, changing the math equations, etc?

 

[sea]

Thanks for the reply. I'll keep those in mind and maybe will go and make a few of the changes you suggested. Good point on making characters sound too experienced, too. I want to have a variety of backgrounds, but I should probably be more careful with what I'm implying with them.

As for pathing: yeah, it's a bitch. I have sections where I have to hide some parts of the level, generate pathing, put them back, and then generate lightmaps after. Gets kind of frustrating when you need to make small changes. By elevation I meant more platforms, stairs, greater disparity in highest and lowest points. I'm limited a bit by the setting but I want to do my best to avoid too much walking in completely straight lines (one of my goals in redoing the market district layout).

Persuade and intimidate are still kind of overpowered. I'm trying to balance it out with attribute checks (cunning gives you deception options, for instance) and using skills that normally wouldn't get as much attention (poison gives you special dialogue and quest options). It's hard to fit in all of them, like survival, considering that the game takes place entirely within one city, but I'll find a way. The limited level-ups you'll get during the course of the game will hopefully help to balance things - you'll basically have to choose between combat and speed. Dragon Age is not the ideal game for what I'm doing but I think I can at least breathe new life into the system.

Buy yeah, really, I appreciate the insightful feedback. I don't get a lot of it so I'm happy to hear anything that helps me improve - the more critique, the better.

EDIT: Did some more work today on the Slums to bring it up to speed with the Market District:



Also experimenting with new atmosphere settings and time of day. I simply cannot get the standard midday sky to look good, probably due to the lack of HDR and decent skyboxes. I noticed there's basically no bright midday stuff in the original game and now I know why: it just does not look good in this engine. However, layered clouds with different colours and fog work really well, and make night, dawn and dusk all really visually striking. Took a page from the campaign stuff and went from there. I'll have to redo the rest of the outdoor areas but I think the results are quite nice:





I haven't finalized that direction yet, so input is appreciated.

 

[ghostdog]

It's looking good but don't spend too much time with looks if you really want to finish this mod.

 

[sea]

It's looking good but don't spend too much time with looks if you really want to finish this mod.

Yeah I know. I just wanted to spend a few days going through to do a "polish pass" on everything so that's what I'm spending my time with now. I think it that iteration really does make a big difference, and while it might take an extra week to do I think the results are worth it. In a mod as big as this, consistency is really important to me - I've seen a lot of fan modules that have great-looking areas and then others which look like they were thrown together in fifteen minutes. It takes away a lot of the professionalism you might otherwise have.

That said, at this point about 2/3 of the environments are done - I have two more outdoor areas one small and one large, a couple of interiors, and a few dungeon areas. I'm actually a little scared at how big this will be - probably at least a GB just for the levels alone. Writing dialogue and doing scripting comparatively takes longer for me than level creation, and that's of course where the game itself is, but once I have all the environments hammered in, I'll be able to more effectively build quests that use all of them in concert.

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

So, sea, may I ask why Dragon Age specifically? Wouldn't it have been easier for complexity and speed to tackle a simpler engine?

Mind you, I speak from the bottom of my deep mod-wise ignorance.

 

[sea]

So, sea, may I ask why Dragon Age specifically? Wouldn't it have been easier for complexity and speed to tackle a simpler engine?

Mind you, I speak from the bottom of my deep mod-wise ignorance.

Kind of. There's a few reasons:

1) Good tools. Despite how much I bitch about its level editor and lightmapper, the Dragon Age Toolset is extremely easy to work with and has a lot of existing core resources to use and modify, including scripts. The barrier of entry is fairly low but you still have good control if you know C++ yourself, and if you wanted to do a complete overhaul of the game balance, skills, classes, etc. you totally could if given the time and want. I wrote an article discussing some of its strengths a little while back.

2) Lets me flex my level design muscle. While not the ultimate or industry standard tools for it (it's no UDK), simply put, I enjoy level design and creation more than pretty much any other aspects of game development and design. Dragon Age has a lot of great artwork and potential for impressive environments. Basically, it's not the most ideal for what I want to make, but it scratches my particular itch and appeals to me from a creator's perspective.

3) Yes, developing full 3D environments, creating dialogue which requires camera angles, animation, etc. and creating keyframe cutscenes all takes time, and I'm tackling it all by myself (albeit in stages for the sake of workflow, there's no point in spending time on something you're going to scrap later). Was it smart to make a project of this size on my own using the Toolset? Probably not, but I'm certainly not going to give up at this point.

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

Do go on, then.

And will you give us samples of some of the writing you may have modified after KodexKreativeKriticism?

 

[sea]

Do go on, then.

And will you give us samples of some of the writing you may have modified after KodexKreativeKriticism?

A lot of it comes down less to crazy changes and more to just cutting down on things. Characters are more succinct and to the point in what they say, and I want to let actions speak louder than words, so while dialogue can be important here and there in building relationships and moving the plot forward, you'll ultimately need to earn trust by doing things. I'm trying to get away from distinct side-quests and main quests; instead, you make progress by exploring naturally, doing tasks for NPCs, and you'll kind of work your way up the power structures of the city to the very top.

I'm also redoing the introduction. The "uncle" idea has been mostly scrapped in favour of an opening where you arrive at the city - reasons are left ambiguous, partially why I wanted the new character backgrounds, lets the player come up with a reason a bit more easily rather than me projecting one - and instead starts outside the city gates as an embargo comes into effect. Finding a way to get into the city is what kickstarts the plot and determines your starting relationships, i.e. offer to smuggle in a package for an NPC stranded outside and you'll get a tip or referral from the person you delivered to about where you might want to go next. The actual environments explored are pretty much the same, but I want to change the context for different paths through the story.

EDIT: Work-in-progress shots of the city's Outskirts. Though it's a fairly small area gameplay-wise, it was always going to be a pretty extensive thing to make just because of all the background detail necessary. I'm fairly happy with the result.

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

Good. As a final estimation, how long wouldst thou say Thirst will take to finish, if one takes the time to do the main mission, and let's say a few but not all sidequests?

 

[sea]

Good. As a final estimation, how long wouldst thou say Thirst will take to finish, if one takes the time to do the main mission, and let's say a few but not all sidequests?

There are no "side quests" so much as there are just quests that open new doors and push you forward in the story. Not all quests are mandatory, but they all have a purpose to them, different quests lead to others, etc. For example, running quests both for a petty crime boss or for a merchant both lead to similar information being retrieved that allows you to advance (I haven't decided to what degree quests will be mutually exclusive). I'm estimating somewhere around 4-5 hours due to the number of locations, but I can't really say right now because I don't have a lot of combat padding things out and most of it can be skipped entirely.

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

Nice. It would be good to have a game where the side (or not so side, as you now specified) quests are integral and interesting. I specifically asked because if I don't like a sidequest, I don't even remotely bother - and then people may give me shit because I didn't "explore all of the game's content" and get pissed for the blandness of the main quest. You can imagine how much of a good time I had with Skyrim before quitting, eh? Your article on gamasutra nailed why I couldn't possibly get invested in that thing.

Eh, now for the most annoying question (sorry, bro)... when? Would you say couple weeks post-holiday season is a good estimate in timeframe? More? Less?
Or even better, it's none of my business so I should fuck off?

 

[sea]

"When it's done."

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

Which is a nicer way of saying the last.

Don't worry, I won't nag. This game is at the extreme periphery of my horizon. The ONLY game that holds the distinction of being actively craved by me is AoD, so...

 

[Baddygoal]

Your environments and levels are already much better than pretty much all of DA:O.

Btw how come all the wheels/wagon wheels seem to be clipping into the ground? Is that an engine bug or is it supposed to represent mud or soft earth?

 

[sea]

Development update:

The first 25% of Thirst (caravan raid for the intro, the city outskirts and the sewers) is nearing feature completion as far as quests, locations, etc. goes. It's really, really nice for me to have a consistent and known starting point for everything, and lets me really start to implement the choice and consequence in quests now that I know 100% what's come before. The downside is I've had to completely remove one quest and rewrite a couple party members from scratch, but they also fit much better into the structure of the story and game now.

A few more screenshots from the new areas (click to enlarge):

Your environments and levels are already much better than pretty much all of DA:O.

Btw how come all the wheels/wagon wheels seem to be clipping into the ground? Is that an engine bug or is it supposed to represent mud or soft earth?

Thanks! I beg to differ about some stuff (some of BioWare's work is really impressive and probably took ages, like Redcliffe and Orzammar), but maybe I'm just my own biggest critic.

The wagon wheels are indeed meant to be sunk into the earth/mud (also it means I can get away with being slightly lazy). It's not ideal because a) lack of ambient occlusion to suggest depth in the scene and b) lack of decals for greater detail on the ground. I might go back and change some of that, but it's not a priority, especially as tiny changes like that require me to re-render lightmaps, which takes ages.

 

[grotsnik]

Maybe use a pose for the victim in this one where he's on his back, if you can? At the moment he looks less like someone seriously injured and more like he's, well, planking.

Other than that, looks good! I tried to figure out the DA area creation tools once and even after hours of agonising work it still resulted in blurrily-textured, bizarrely light-mapped messes with placeables floating off the ground and trees changing at will from oak trees to shrubbery, so from my perspective your areas are damn impressive.

 

[racofer]

I honestly don't understand all the bitching about DA:O's graphics. They look fine to me and the engine's performance is quite acceptable before memory starts leaking everywhere.