World of Whorecraft: Battle for Asseroth

[Excidium]

And that's why blizzard expansion plans include new raid content every few months.

 

[Lhynn]

Feels like a puzzle game with gear progression.
Its not wrong or bad, but wow goes against everything i believe a mmo should be about.

 

[Xenich]

Wait, how does what he said translates to challenge? or are you talking about the challenge you have to go tru and overcome with skill because of shit gear?

How about maybe you try a Normal with a team of guys like yourself, with no prior raid experience, and then let us know if it was challenging or not?

Prior to the raid, please don't read the tactics, don't set up voice, and don't bring any consumables - oh, and don't coordinate the group in any way, like on a forum.

So you mean, for the most part how we did it in EQ in the early days?

 

[Xenich]

Feels like a puzzle game with gear progression.
Its not wrong or bad, but wow goes against everything i believe a mmo should be about.

I dislike what WoW is today. Dislike... I think that is a weak word... rather I hate it with a passion.

That said, I have no problems with other people liking that style of play. I think there should be games that attend to all types of player styles and focuses.

My problem is however having the people who love that style of play coming to game after game that isn't that style of play and DEMANDING it change to that style they like. That is the result of the entire MMO industry. The "WoW" mentality infected game after game until all the systems are bland unintelligent face rolling action spam fests of doing easy tasks over and over for rewards.

 

[Excidium]

Ok

 

[Angthoron]

Or maybe it's also the result of other devs reiterating WoW over and over, and the press fapping at them for doing so.

 

[J1M]

I never got why raiding was such a big thing in WoW. I understand if you do a dungeon once and get the loot with a 100% success rate, but doing it over and over again because the Girdle of Endless Defilement or the Hat of Multiple Tentacles or the last part of the Banalite Band, Shihit Necklace and the Bo Ring so that you get +50 Agility or something like that seems like artificial fun. Now, I mostly grew up on traditional RPGs without grind, and in my time in WoW I enjoyed the story quests (and the ones with interesting mechanics) more than the "farm 12 feathers of the Big Black Macawk, and not all birds have feathers and at best only drop one" ones.

Do some people actually enjoy the grinding quests and doing the same shit over and over again just to get slightly better gear?

WoW, especially at its peak, was one of the only places to experience difficult boss encounters. At the time, gaming was moving away from boss fights and most "cooperative" experiences were also PVP experiences in games like shooters.

 

[Caim]

Feels like a puzzle game with gear progression.
Its not wrong or bad, but wow goes against everything i believe a mmo should be about.

Then what do you think should an MMO be about? More cooperative stuff? More PVP? More difficulty?

 

[Mangoose]

Raid bosses were challenging and kept you on your toes, but oh god going through trash mobs literally put me to sleep. Even in just Zul'Gurub. My sleeping schedule was really bad then but seriously, I mean I'd be enjoying myself with my guild in the raids but I would just doze off.

But then again, I tried leveling a Shaman from 1-60 a few months later and I started falling asleep at my desk around level 30.

I wonder how TBC changed things. And is it possible to still experience the fun TBC raids or is it too late?

 

[J1M]

Raid bosses were challenging and kept you on your toes, but oh god going through trash mobs literally put me to sleep. Even in just Zul'Gurub. My sleeping schedule was really bad then but seriously, I mean I'd be enjoying myself with my guild in the raids but I would just doze off.

But then again, I tried leveling a Shaman from 1-60 a few months later and I started falling asleep at my desk around level 30.

I wonder how TBC changed things. And is it possible to still experience the fun TBC raids or is it too late?

Depends what you mean by experience. You can go there and solo them, but you wont find 25 people willing to lock their level progression at 70 to work your way through the content with.

 

[Lhynn]

Then what do you think should an MMO be about? More cooperative stuff? More PVP? More difficulty?

The players.

 

[Xenich]

Or maybe it's also the result of other devs reiterating WoW over and over, and the press fapping at them for doing so.

Well, maybe on newly released games that attend to that, but I have seen older games ruined by the WoW crowd. I played LoTRO from early alpha and once it got easier for people to get into beta, the demands became more in line with WoW. They couldn't stand the slower selective combat system, people wanted it faster (even saying... "be more like WoW"). They hated the quests requiring you to read and think about where you should go and demanded the indicators and the like. They complained about dungeons being "too long" and wanted them to be more in line with WoW (10-15 min runs). They didn't like gear dropping within the dungeons, they wanted tokens so they could guarantee their reward with grinding. They didn't like the encounters being very difficult and demanded "easier", more "accessible" ones, etc... The game is complete crap now and it was driven that way I would say due in part to the casual WoW crowd. They changed all those things very quickly in order to cater to that crowd.

As I said though, I have no problems with different games catering to different desires, but the industry be it through the investors, developers, or the tantrums of the players have turned it to the same thing everywhere you go.

 

[J1M]

I played LOTRO's beta. It didn't need any help becoming crap.

 

[Excidium]

Or maybe it's also the result of other devs reiterating WoW over and over, and the press fapping at them for doing so.

Well, maybe on newly released games that attend to that, but I have seen older games ruined by the WoW crowd. I played LoTRO from early alpha and once it got easier for people to get into beta, the demands became more in line with WoW. They couldn't stand the slower selective combat system, people wanted it faster (even saying... "be more like WoW"). They hated the quests requiring you to read and think about where you should go and demanded the indicators and the like. They complained about dungeons being "too long" and wanted them to be more in line with WoW (10-15 min runs). They didn't like gear dropping within the dungeons, they wanted tokens so they could guarantee their reward with grinding. They didn't like the encounters being very difficult and demanded "easier", more "accessible" ones, etc... The game is complete crap now and it was driven that way I would say due in part to the casual WoW crowd. They changed all those things very quickly in order to cater to that crowd.

As I said though, I have no problems with different games catering to different desires, but the industry be it through the investors, developers, or the tantrums of the players have turned it to the same thing everywhere you go.

The "casual wow crowd" did more harm to wow than any other game. But it sure is easy to blame other factors instead of incompetent developers desperately wanting to get a slice of that pie, games don't change because people ask but because developers cave in.

 

[Xenich]

I played LOTRO's beta. It didn't need any help becoming crap.

Please explain?

The dungeons were long interesting progressions that could take several days to fully explore and complete. The combat system was interesting, requiring the player to consider their standard swing timings with respect to their pressed abilities. Also, abilities of the classes were interesting with various abilities that were more than just tank/heal/DPS. Content was difficult not only in the dungeons, but in basic encounters throughout the world. You could die very easy if you didn't pay attention, it wasn't like WoW became where unless it was a dungeon or raid, you had to be an idiot to end up dying. There is a lot more, but... you get the idea.

The game had its problems, but SOA was a solid game if you were wanting to escape the mainstream curse of face rolling grind game play. These days, the game is so completely retarded that it isn't even worth the effort to download it and install it. They killed everything in the game that made it worth playing.

 

[Xenich]

Or maybe it's also the result of other devs reiterating WoW over and over, and the press fapping at them for doing so.

Well, maybe on newly released games that attend to that, but I have seen older games ruined by the WoW crowd. I played LoTRO from early alpha and once it got easier for people to get into beta, the demands became more in line with WoW. They couldn't stand the slower selective combat system, people wanted it faster (even saying... "be more like WoW"). They hated the quests requiring you to read and think about where you should go and demanded the indicators and the like. They complained about dungeons being "too long" and wanted them to be more in line with WoW (10-15 min runs). They didn't like gear dropping within the dungeons, they wanted tokens so they could guarantee their reward with grinding. They didn't like the encounters being very difficult and demanded "easier", more "accessible" ones, etc... The game is complete crap now and it was driven that way I would say due in part to the casual WoW crowd. They changed all those things very quickly in order to cater to that crowd.

As I said though, I have no problems with different games catering to different desires, but the industry be it through the investors, developers, or the tantrums of the players have turned it to the same thing everywhere you go.

The "casual wow crowd" did more harm to wow than any other game. But it sure is easy to blame other factors instead of incompetent developers desperately wanting to get a slice of that pie, games don't change because people ask but because developers cave in.

I said they were part of it. I am not sure if it is all in the hands of the developers (though likely a good part). A lot of decisions are made by the higher ups and the developers have their hands tied.

 

[J1M]

I played LOTRO's beta. It didn't need any help becoming crap.

Please explain?

The dungeons were long interesting progressions that could take several days to fully explore and complete. The combat system was interesting, requiring the player to consider their standard swing timings with respect to their pressed abilities. Also, abilities of the classes were interesting with various abilities that were more than just tank/heal/DPS. Content was difficult not only in the dungeons, but in basic encounters throughout the world. You could die very easy if you didn't pay attention, it wasn't like WoW became where unless it was a dungeon or raid, you had to be an idiot to end up dying. There is a lot more, but... you get the idea.

The game had its problems, but SOA was a solid game if you were wanting to escape the mainstream curse of face rolling grind game play. These days, the game is so completely retarded that it isn't even worth the effort to download it and install it. They killed everything in the game that made it worth playing.

You are also describing WoW beta/vanilla. LOTRO was always a wow clone so it is no surprise that it cloned the changes wow made over time too.

I called it crap because it was the same but with an inferior interface and a less interesting world.

 

[Xenich]

I played LOTRO's beta. It didn't need any help becoming crap.

Please explain?

The dungeons were long interesting progressions that could take several days to fully explore and complete. The combat system was interesting, requiring the player to consider their standard swing timings with respect to their pressed abilities. Also, abilities of the classes were interesting with various abilities that were more than just tank/heal/DPS. Content was difficult not only in the dungeons, but in basic encounters throughout the world. You could die very easy if you didn't pay attention, it wasn't like WoW became where unless it was a dungeon or raid, you had to be an idiot to end up dying. There is a lot more, but... you get the idea.

The game had its problems, but SOA was a solid game if you were wanting to escape the mainstream curse of face rolling grind game play. These days, the game is so completely retarded that it isn't even worth the effort to download it and install it. They killed everything in the game that made it worth playing.

You are also describing WoW beta/vanilla. LOTRO was always a wow clone so it is no surprise that it cloned the changes wow made over time too.

I called it crap because it was the same but with an inferior interface and a less interesting world.

I don't understand what you mean by WoW clone? People say the same thing about WoW as it concerns EQ, but they use vague general means which would encompass everything.

What is it specifically that made LoTRO a WoW clone? It wasn't the dungeons as they were much longer and more complex than WoW had at the time. It wasn't the combat system as it was much slower and contained more in-depth features for development (ie the virtues and class enchantments and unlocks). SoA was nothing like WoW. Now Moria on the other hand, that was WoW like... very much so. That was also my point though.

You said you played beta, but the biggest problem I had with my friends during that time was getting them to stick with the game long enough to see the systems. For instance, most people who played beta, barely even touched on dungeons. Your first real dungeon wasn't even accessible until you were nearing 20 and while it is a start, the Greater Barrows hardly showed the bueaty of the dungeon system and encounters of LoTRO. Did you ever see Fornost, CarnDum?

Again, I have played both WoW and LoTRO from their inceptions and I don't see the "WoW Clone" argument. I would be much obliged if you could point it out for me.

 

[J1M]

I'm not going to pretend that I got far enough with LOTRO to see all of those dungeons, but I have hard time believing that they were "much longer and more complex" than the original versions of Sunken Temple, Black Rock Depths, and Black Rock Spire.

 

[Lhynn]

Unno about lord of the ring, but DDO dungeons were pretty cool.
Skillchecks everywhere, hidden passages, alternative routes, optional bosses, a simple but strong narrative, very hard puzzles and a variety that is astounding.

Fuck, they were the best dungeons in any mmo i have ever been in.

 

[J1M]

Unno about lord of the ring, but DDO dungeons were pretty cool.
Skillchecks everywhere, hidden passages, alternative routes, optional bosses, a simple but strong narrative, very hard puzzles and a variety that is astounding.

Fuck, they were the best dungeons in any mmo i have ever been in.

The early dungeons especially evoked the feeling of playing D&D. I only wish the combat had done the same. Use of a narrator was an excellent idea.

 

[Xenich]

I'm not going to pretend that I got far enough with LOTRO to see all of those dungeons, but I have hard time believing that they were "much longer and more complex" than the original versions of Sunken Temple, Black Rock Depths, and Black Rock Spire.

They were. Go watch a Fornost, Carndum, or Urugarth walk through from before they split all the dungeons up and dumbed them down. Far more complex than the WoW dungeons.

 

[Xenich]

Unno about lord of the ring, but DDO dungeons were pretty cool.
Skillchecks everywhere, hidden passages, alternative routes, optional bosses, a simple but strong narrative, very hard puzzles and a variety that is astounding.

Fuck, they were the best dungeons in any mmo i have ever been in.

I would have to agree that dungeons in DDO are on the top of the list mainly due to the traps, puzzles, etc... Their boss and special encounter designs were pretty weak though, but aside from that, top notch.

 

[Delterius]

I'm not going to pretend that I got far enough with LOTRO to see all of those dungeons, but I have hard time believing that they were "much longer and more complex" than the original versions of Sunken Temple, Black Rock Depths, and Black Rock Spire.

They were. Go watch a Fornost, Carndum, or Urugarth walk through from before they split all the dungeons up and dumbed them down. Far more complex than the WoW dungeons.

By complexity do you mean layout or are there some sort of game mechanics which add to the venture?

 

[Xenich]

I'm not going to pretend that I got far enough with LOTRO to see all of those dungeons, but I have hard time believing that they were "much longer and more complex" than the original versions of Sunken Temple, Black Rock Depths, and Black Rock Spire.

They were. Go watch a Fornost, Carndum, or Urugarth walk through from before they split all the dungeons up and dumbed them down. Far more complex than the WoW dungeons.

By complexity do you mean layout or are there some sort of game mechanics which add to the venture?

Larger layout, dungeon mechanics, boss fight mechanics (on par or better than WoW depending on boss/dungeon), etc....


For instance, when they broke up Fornost, they cut it into 4 different dungeons.

Here it is before it was hacked up. the bottom part and the stuff to the left is outside. Everything from the ramp up (the square) is the dungeon. Keep in mind that that is the outside part. There are inside areas that are just as big as that. The dungeon was cut into several types of themes that you completed and killed the bosses in order to progress to the final boss. There were lots of interesting encounters and fight mechanics along the way. Carndum, Urugarth, etc... all have similar length and themes (well, they did until they were broke down into small pointless dungeon finder runs for token farming).