Would you like to see real armor in RPGs?

[DraQ]

If you really want realism then you could also say that you don't want maces in the game at the same time as those heavy plate armors. If you read through the weapon history a bit you would notice that heavy armors were made useless once maces and flails appeard, because they could easily break through heavy armor.

Fail. They were effective anti armour weapons, but flanged maces appeared in Europe even before full plate.

Fantasy can only take so much. Unrealistic features have always been a part of fiction and without them it would just be a documentary.

Fail again. Cool unrealistic features (like magic, exotic materials and cultures, dragons, furry rces, etc.) should be kept, stupid unrealistic features (like chainmail bikinis) should be discarded. Logic should be applied to the remaining ones (implications of existant magic, etc.).

 

[Darth Roxor]

Yup, the official ending of heavy armour came with gunpowder. Poland had elite heavy cavalry called "Husaria", and the swedish invasion on Poland in the second half of the XVII century is said to have officially ' started the end of the years of Husaria', because muskets were cutting them down like ducks on a shooting range.

 

[mondblut]

Hm, methinks chainmail bikinis are way cooler than furry races. Then again, I am heterosexual and not a furfag.

 

[caliban]

Yup, the official ending of heavy armour came with gunpowder. Poland had elite heavy cavalry called "Husaria", and the swedish invasion on Poland in the second half of the XVII century is said to have officially ' started the end of the years of Husaria', because muskets were cutting them down like ducks on a shooting range.

Oh, but they went out with a bang - at Kircholm 2,5k hussars squashed 12 thousand Swedish soldiers into a thin red paste. 13 (!) hussars died, while Swedish losses are estimated at more than 50% (7 thousand men!).

Beautiful times.

Hussars were fast and they seldom got shot, being hidden behind horse necks and protected by armor. It's not the casualties that made them obsolete, it's the cost of armor, raising and training their warhorses etc.

 

[JarlFrank]

Also, thick plate breast-armor was still in use even when there were early muskets. Because those early guns pretty much sucked, had long reload-time and were pretty inaccurate, too. And really good plate harnesses could even stop a bullet fired from a long to medium-long range. It's just that those things are extremely expensive, and full plate became impractical because of weight and inflexibility.

 

[Kz3r0]

The first muskets don't have enough penetrating power, hard enough bullets or shaped correctly to pierce full plate armours, this is a vexata quaestio(very old question) representing itself, through roman empire helm and scutum to medieval arrows and bolts tips to came at modern warfare bullets and vests, what can pierce some type of armour can't pierce another, what can whithstand or deflects some blows can't with others, it's all about technical improvement.

 

[DraQ]

Hm, methinks chainmail bikinis are way cooler than furry races. Then again, I am heterosexual and not a furfag.

I'm both, minus the 'fag' part.

 

[Mareus]

Yep I was wrong. I found some article somewhere on the net saying plate armors became useless when maces appeared. I can't find it anymore, and I checked the net and found dozens of articles saying it was gunpowder.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

I'm surprised that wasn't out of the kingcomrade collection.

KC is into 40k, that's Karl franz from WFB.

 

[Murk]

I find it strange that people are naturally polarizing themselves into two oppositional extremes... well not really, that's human nature i guess.

I want... uhh... BOTH in games that its fitting in.

So basically we have ass-tons of fantasy, how about some realistic rpgs? No, not ones that require the player to urinate with a special "bladder guage" and have to then find "cure bladder infection" to be able to continue (funny considering Jasede was recently raving about a game that requires you to manage food).

 

[kingcomrade]

Please do not call Warhammer (or 40k) cartoony. It is not cartoony. I get the feeling that the people who think it is cartoony have only been exposed to Dawn of War (or maybe some of the fanart I've posted), which I will admit took a pretty cartoony approach. My guess is that video games tend towards that because that style is easier to do with fewer polygons.

 

[kingcomrade]

Where do you get all those WH40K pics from, kc?

Source (rule) books, deviant art, 4chan, google images...40k has been around for like 30 years, although I would dare to say it's gotten much wider recognition in the past five or so years (outside of Britain, maybe) because of Dawn of War.

 

[Murk]

yes yes, i retract my 'cartoony' statement in application to warhammer in either the fantasy, 40k, tabletop, or any other form

whatever term you want to use for "unrealistic but stylish" by all means go ahead and implement

I've always liked warhammer's art for its magnificent detail and drama

 

[PorkaMorka]

Yep I was wrong. I found some article somewhere on the net saying plate armors became useless when maces appeared. I can't find it anymore, and I checked the net and found dozens of articles saying it was gunpowder.

Well it's not entirely wrong.

Maces didn't make plate armor obsolete.

But advanced plate armor was more vulnerable to maces/war hammers/military picks than it was to swords, so a lot of knights switched to those as side arms.

It's funny, because old games used to take this into account by giving each weapon type a bonus or penalty vs plate/chain/leather, but I haven't seen a game do it for years and years.

 

[kingcomrade]

I honestly have never really liked Warhammer Fantasy that much, even though I once tried to get into it. In 40k elves and dwarves are eldar and lol ate by tyranids and are significantly different that I, at least, don't really think of them as elves and dwarves (or space marines as knights). in Warhammer Fantasy they're darker than normal, but it's still the same stuff. I just don't really like the factions or setting much, I suppose. Overlord has made me think that generic fantasy is best suited for lighthearted games.

But advanced plate armor was more vulnerable to maces/war hammers/military picks than it was to swords, so a lot of knights switched to those as side arms.

You're forgetting a few other blunt weapons, like axes.

 

[Murk]

my assumption would be that's because of the intrinsic faggotry of elves and dwarves and the usual tolkien-based races, and their annoying prevalance amongst games

the reason i pick human anytime i play any fantasy rpg that i can choose to in i do so not because of level adjustments but because elves are fucking gay as are dwarves

40k has different and i think improved upon races since their built off the template of the classical (gay) races but change, and i would assume change is attempted to be for the sake of better, and i wager that in 40k they succeeded

oh and also 40k has all the good elements of fantasy and more, so yeah

*i refer to the settings and not the table top wargame or the electronic games spawned there-from, i don't think i'll ever get into the table-top game

 

[Shoelip]

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=20563.0

The elves will eat you.

 

[SkeleTony]

Elves are always gay. I will give you that. But humans are WORSE in fantasy games. I opt for races like orcs, ogres and such when I can. Maybe because in real life I am slender and handsome so in my escapist entertainment I opt for 'big, ugly and brutal'.
But if I absolutely had to choose between gay elves and boring-ass humans, I would don the +3 pride bracelet of home decor and pointy ears. The only thing worse than 'gay' is 'boring'.

 

[Shoelip]

Yeah yeah, you keep saying that. Just wait until an army of five hundred elves come screaming over the hills and literally eat you alive. You'll keep em busy while I get away.

 

[Comrade Hamster]

Does this count as realistic?

 

[bylam]

I thought we did alright in Age of Conan.
http://aoc.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Aquilon ... lplate.jpg

 

[fizzelopeguss]

40k has taken itself too seriously for a while now, which is ridiculous considering the childish premise of it. Over sized guns, unrealistic tanks and billiunz and billiunz of wurldz at war! WFB still has it's sense of humour, although that's unfortunately being eroded. It is still kept alive by WFRP though and some of the old timers left at GW.

my assumption would be that's because of the intrinsic faggotry of elves and dwarves and the usual tolkien-based races,

Warhammer dwarves have helichoppers, cannons and sail around in ironclads, the eldar are as gay as their fantasy counterparts.

And warhammer is as much inspired by Conan as it is by tolkien.

40k has been around for like 30 years

Rogue trader was published in 87.

And here's some art that inspired warhammer.

 

[Emotional Vampire]

the eldar are as gay as their fantasy counterparts.

No.

As for armor: "Our" armor looks like it looks because it's been influenced by themes of it's time. A different culture with different themes would do it differently, or at least make it look differently. Just look at what japs did with armor.

So putting "our" plate in fantasyland wouldn't make much sense.

I'm all for realism though. Realism is good.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I honestly have never really liked Warhammer Fantasy that much, even though I once tried to get into it. In 40k elves and dwarves are eldar and lol ate by tyranids and are significantly different that I, at least, don't really think of them as elves and dwarves (or space marines as knights). in Warhammer Fantasy they're darker than normal, but it's still the same stuff. I just don't really like the factions or setting much, I suppose.

Wasn't there something like now extinct 'space dwarves' in W40k?
Well, and yes, the Eldar are very different than Elves, a good reason would be the deity they worship - Khaine, who they find to be a warrior and such, while in Warhammer Fantasy he was the god of murder and murderers, asking for human sacrifices, so he can steal their souls and build his own dark kingdom - all out of envy for his brother, Morr, the god of death and the underworld.
I don't know which Warhammer setting I prefer, both are real damn awesome actually. Never actually 'played' a tabletop W40k, because I don't deal with battle systems (my 'fascination' with W40k began with the video game "Rites of War"), but I have the WFRP rulebook and played a little bit and it's great.

 

[DraQ]

It's funny, because old games used to take this into account by giving each weapon type a bonus or penalty vs plate/chain/leather, but I haven't seen a game do it for years and years.

Explanation:

"Waaah!1 i hit tihs guy whit my sord but cant kil him this game is borked and SUXXX!!!1"

 

[Globbi]

Some of you are exagerating a bit.
The pictures of armor in LoTR or M&B are realistic, they are just really nice decorated armors of fucking rich people (and anyway, they don't look like those other fantasy where parts of armor are way bigger than your character). They also don't seem to be tournament armors, it's just that they have lots of decoration.

About the elegant full plate, it's not that it could look elegant but that it had to. Parts had to fit closely to body for normal movement. Also, it didn't waight so much without unecessary shit.
There were some big armors that prevented wearers from getting up when after they have fallen, but those were used on tournaments. It was for good protection on tournament.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Some of you are exagerating a bit.
The pictures of armor in LoTR or M&B are realistic, they are just really nice decorated armors of fucking rich people (and anyway, they don't look like those other fantasy where parts of armor are way bigger than your character). They also don't seem to be tournament armors, it's just that they have lots of decoration.

I have nothing against realistic looking armour that is decorated, because it's owned by fucking rich people