Ye Olde D&D Alignment System

[Stella Brando]

What do you guys think about this system? Is it reliable? DISCUSS!

 

[Snorkack]

Utter garbage.

Alignment system is a perfect illustration of what's wrong with D&D, it's idea of roleplaying and the type of players it attracts (mind you, last time I played actively it was called AD&D, so maybe things have changed for the better?) - Every aspect of gameplay has to be formalized, there is no room for interpretation, everything you say, do or roll for has to be backed by Rules As Written.
Except for a few significant exceptions like for paladins or clerics, it makes absolutely no sense to punish players for acting not according to their chosen alignment. It strongly reinforces 'my guy syndrome', stuff like 'Sorry, your character can't not kick that kitten' and the fact that most "evil" groups are actually "insufferable douchebag" groups.
It maybe is a nice guideline to have when you make your very first experiences with RPGs at the age of 13, but even back then I wasn't a fan of it.

 

[EldarEldrad]

D&D alignment is high-level abstraction for high-level abstractions such as "Chaos" or "Evil" which make it unapplicable to any persona. It's just mechanic tool to restrict character capabilities - e.g. Paladin can't do X and Y and wear armor Z because, you know, it's evil. Using alignment table for real world (or just anything outside D&D game mechanics) is completely retarded.

 

[Sacred82]

D&D alignments weren't for self-inserts; they were gamey gamisms for gaming purposes. And they did pretty well at that.

 

[Butter]

I see it as a crude attempt to force players to role-play. There's always the temptation to meta-game, and the alignment system keeps people in line. However you want players to be able to act out of character, or else evolve their character over the course of a campaign.

 

[Incendax]

It always seems to cause more trouble than good.

 

[Elex]

it’s also serve as a afterlife system.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

Great table! Cleveland Mark Blakemore is the ultimate embodiedment of lawfull good I believe

 

[Yosharian]

Could you find a lower resolution picture? I can almost read the text on this one.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I didn't mind alignments. In most CRPGs it's not really enforced and the same goes for in PnP. They are a good way of showing how a given character might react and only absurd dipshits would act like they are the Word of God, apart from some extreme cases like the deity based classes, and in those cases it becomes a fun extra layer of trying to solve problems within the restrictions of your alignment/god.

 

[user]

While I am not fond of games telling you how you think blah blah player rights etc... I find that the DnD alignment system is no less than perfect to depict any player behavior and even real life situations.

TLTR - If the DnD system replaced our political system of right and left bs wings, the world would be a better place!

 

[Chippy]

Need some correction:
Hillary Clinton: Chaotic Evil.
President Donald Trump: Neutral Good.

 

[user]

Need some correction:
Hillary Clinton: Chaotic Evil.
President Donald Trump: Neutral Good.

They are both neutral silly
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Lizardfolk

 

[Chippy]

Need some correction:
Hillary Clinton: Chaotic Evil.
President Donald Trump: Neutral Good.

They are both neutral silly
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Lizardfolk

 

[SausageInYourFace]

I think its better than its reputation.

While obviously simplistic it is still an interesting framework to think about persons personal moral guidelines. And I think the reason that it is still fascinating people to this day, way beyond the confines of nerdy roleplaying nerdom, is because it touches on something profound. Aside from just meming it is actually an interesting thought process to consider the ethical grounding of fictonal characters or even yourself or the people around you. The alignment system is as good as a point of departure for that as any.

What do you guys think is an actually superior alignment (or comparable moral/ethical-) system, by the way? And don't say 'having no alignment at all', lets assume you'd have to pick one. Are there even many different ones beyond the classic dnd one? If there are, they are certainly not as well known.

 

[Fairfax]

Most people never understood the system, so they criticise it for things it never did or had (you can see several examples in this thread already). Each new edition made significant changes to the system and the alignment descriptions, which made things even worse.

Alignment was meant primarily as a role-playing tool.
(Despite what some of the "mature" and "sophisticated" gamers assert, roleplay was indeed a central feature of the AD&D game from the proverbial get-go.) the player was to be guided by it when role-playing his character, and the DM had the same benchmarks to use in judging the PC's actions.

The debates now make me regret that I ever included the system feature, as it is being taken beyond the pale.
Better to have the character's actions speak for their ethics and morality than some letter set.

The main problem seems to be that the players are assuming alignment in a vacuum, without reference to any deities establishing and overseeing the matters concerned with such judgements and actions.
Bacause the main system fails to provide properly for deities to be active in such matters, abuses of the most eggregious sort take place.
A paladin is supposed to be the archetype of the Christian knight.
that means focusing on doing right, spreading the word about the faith (in the deity the paladin serves), helping others of goodwill, protecting the weak, etc.
Judging others not opposing the paladin is quite out of the picture.

This is a subject that I could write a complete essay on, but it is bootless.
Let those who publish the system clean up the mess.

When players began to announce their character’s alignment to other participants I shuddered. I suggested that such information was not for broadcast, that the PCs might not actually think of themselves as categorized thus, and the alignment categories were meant more to guide the player in playing his character in the game.

Simply put, alignments are for the use of the DM in the development of the nations and the peoples that inhabit them, principally the dramatis personae that will interact with the group of player characters. It is meant to serve the DM as a measuring stick against the performance of the PCs in the campaign, after each has elected an alignment as a general template for the ethical and moral views of their game persona. In the same secondary role, they are meant to be useful in regards use of magical spells and magic items that require the imbuing of some spirit (force) in their making.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Snorkack]

Even Gygax thinks it's shit

 

[Sacred82]

Even Gygax thinks it's shit

"Alignments aren't nearly as good as young convention boy butt." - Gary Gygax

Good Christian knights don't simply judge others

Thrusting it on the DM to kind of clandestinely judge players' adherence to 9 alignments is p. preposterous. If the game forces that corset on you, the player, it only makes sense that you keep track of it.

The point being: roleplaying aside, D&D alignments are gud in their gamey aspects especially for videogames.

 

[Incendax]

What do you guys think is an actually superior alignment (or comparable moral/ethical-) system, by the way? And don't say 'having no alignment at all', lets assume you'd have to pick one. Are there even many different ones beyond the classic dnd one? If there are, they are certainly not as well known.

No Alignment is not an option? Integrity from World of Darkness.

The system is literally a “How to not be an asshole player” guideline, with a Virtue/Vice system where you can make up your own adjectives.

 

[HarveyBirdman]

It's boring and rudimentary. It's an X/Y axis.
I want a Z axis too.

 

[Sacred82]

It's boring and rudimentary. It's an X/Y axis.
I want a Z axis too.

Lawful Elderly Good

 

[HarveyBirdman]

Not enough options to role play as a dirty old man with good intentions. Game is shit.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

It works well enough. It approximates general behaviors and makes them a supernatural disposition/force. It works mechanically. I would be far better to do things by plane, but D&D (Forgotten Realms) cosmology has way too damned many for that to be practical.

I think half of the complaints would vanish if 'Law' were semantically relabeled 'Order'. It's really only Paladins that give people grief when dealing with this system anyway. D&D 5th Edition has made some elegant side-steps with changing some spells and abilities. For example, Smite Evil was changed to Divine Smite. Instead of being alignment based, it's a general damage increase with further bonuses if the target is fiendish or undead. Perfect. Detect Evil has also been replaced by Divine Sense, which basically allows them to detect outsiders and undead, or objects influenced by them.

 

[DraQ]

D&D alignment is high-level abstraction for high-level abstractions such as "Chaos" or "Evil" which make it unapplicable to any persona. It's just mechanic tool to restrict character capabilities - e.g. Paladin can't do X and Y and wear armor Z because, you know, it's evil. Using alignment table for real world (or just anything outside D&D game mechanics) is completely retarded.

Worse, it's mechanics for the sake of mechanics.

You see, all PnP mechanics in its essence is a crutch.
It serves as an unbiased arbitrator where deficiencies of humans are the most glaring.
However, anything related to roleplaying or characters' motivation is an area where any attempts at formalization have so far been vastly inferior people's instinctive grasp on the issue, and where any such attempts that are also simple enough for PnP's needs will remain so forever.

That's speaking of alignment/morality systems (any, all) in general, DnD implementation, in particular, adds insult to injury by completely lacking nuance and ability to portray different perspectives and their clashes that actually make a fictional conflict interesting (and an RL one tragic).
Way to have one job...

To say that D&D alignment system should be razed, burned to the ground, its ashes scattered and the area it used to occupy salted (with, uh, isotopically enriched salts, no less) would still be calling for undue lenience - it should be given such treatment that not even empty space would remain for it to have occupied it, nor time where it had done so.