Development Info Zombie RPG Design Update

[denizsi]

Just because someone can open locks, doesn't mean that he can fix a generator, that's true, but that wasn't the point. The point was that the mechanical skill is a simple representation of what's called mechanical aptitude - the understanding and working knowledge of basic mechanical and electrical principles operations. A handyman - one competent in a variety of small skills or inventive or ingenious in repair or maintenance work - will not be able to fix a nuclear reactor or open an advanced safe locking mechanism, but he would be able to open common locks, fix simple generators, do minor electric work, get a car engine working, replace breaks, install garage door openers, make a knife, etc.

I was looking at it from a "skill", hence the "name" "skill", angle so that is why that was the point for me, but what the fuck ever, just explain to me this:

How does intuitive aptitude play into linear increase in complexity of tasks? So ok, some people have a knack for dealing with "mechanics" at a relatively simple level and these people can learn to do various tasks such as aforementioned pretty easily. Now in Zombie RPG's context, what does a level mean and how does it relate to such aptitude? A person will have to dedicate more time to learning and specializing in any sub-field the more he has to deal with increasingly advanced and complex challenges. Ok if learning to pick simple locks or learning to repair basic electronic tools is a breeze, and ok if a character with a level 1 or 2 of Mechanics can do these. Now, what does level 7 or so mean? That this same character can pick a high-quality safe as well as can repair and rewire advanced microcircuits as well as can, I don't know, modify engines to increase efficiency, or produce sensors, hydrolic traps? If not, please let us know, because so far, it sounds like how it's planned, what with "perks" being automatically gained as you level, so ultimately, a character with a Mechanic level of 10 can basically do everything and no amount of dicussion or dictionary-referencing for various terms will change how ridiculous that is.The moment a character is going beyond the area of initial intuition-driven bonuses, the whole aptitude argument starts falling down. If you think otherwise, well, that's just fucking weird.

Just read the other posts now, so yeah, what WanderingThrough2 said too.

Additionally, doesn't this whole argument for aptitude conflicts with Science, Medical and Survival skills, as they include far more peculiar things than could simply be summarized as a legitimate concept of human intuition? What's really an aptitude named as a skill on one side, and a mish-mash collection of abilities and skills on the other. I'm also wondering what kind of dictionary-referencing I'll witness this time.

Though I have to give it that Melee and Ranged makes at least some sense. No real complaints there.

 

[Fezzik]

It all depends on how often particular skills are used, what functions they serve in the game, etc. If you get about the same amount of use out of each skill, then the way they are distributed may be appropriate.

For instance, separating medical and science makes sense, because one essentially gives your party a health cushion and the other let's them make use of specialized equipment -- significantly different functions meaning different skills, even if the skills are related in their subject matter, makes sense. I can't say exactly how the balancing of the skills and such design decisions are happening, but I have faith in Brian and Annie and I don't see anything particularly wrong with what's been shown so far.

The way I see it, if you compare the skills presented so far to other RPGs that made good use of skill-based gameplay, it doesn't come off badly. For example, in Prelude to Darkness, if you lumped combat skills into melee and ranged, and left out armor, music, barter, and magic, you'd be left with ten skills in total (and the most important skills outside of magic): melee, ranged, speech, tinker, pickpocket, literacy and lore, medical, nature, stealth, and thaumaturgy. This line-up worked very well in PtD and it is very similar to what Doublebear has shown. For instance, tinker is almost exactly analogous to mechanical. Thaumaturgy is like science, nature like survival, etc. If that setup can be used to make some of the best skill-based gameplay I've seen in any RPG in the case of PtD, I don't see why it wouldn't work in ZRPG.

 

[Annonchinil]

So are you just upset that lock picking is not a separate skill or that they also did not give enough appreciation to boiler fixing, tire changing, gun maintenance...?

Anyways I am not sure if Survival travel refers to some sort of overland mode but if it does having the person with the highest rating set the speed makes sense. I don't see what being Olympic athletes has to do with anything since many of them don't know much about survival and will probably get lost in the wild.

 

[bhlaab]

I hope "Barter" is seperated into 90 different skills because that means more deeper.

 

[deuxhero]

Will zRPG have any arbitary inabilities to have companions use their skills?

 

[Annie Mitsoda]

Man, I don't show up for a while and y'all get lonely. It's like you need some kinda vagina infusion to spice up your lives with my XX chromosome SPICE. Or something. I TIRED.

In serious news I has job now, so I is working job (IT IS A GAEM JOB WEEOO) AND working on DoubleBear stuff, so it is best of both worlds. It also means less postie on forums but that doesn't mean I like you any less. <3

I understand the furor over merging skills. Yeah, I get that "Science" covers a wide array of stuff, from Chemistry to Biology and so on, and so does Survival, and yeah. I understand the realism tactic, and I understand wanting to feel that each discrete skill is catered to. But 1) this rarely works, and 2) often if there IS that much attention to making sure each skill is used once, situations feel fake, boring, contrived. It's like the Justice League show back in the day - motherfuckers had to write some stupid stories having to deal with the ocean every now and then so Aquaman had some shit to do.

Shitbits, if "Science" was a singular discipline, I could have gotten a minor in it in college to be a zesty side dish to that English major. BUT IT'S NOT. But that doesn't matter, because this isn't a game about playing Aquaman - er - making sure that the guy who pumped all his skill points into Geology can correctly identify that the primary rock of the area is a granite composite with large basaltic occlusions and thus feel vindicated in his choice. It's about making shit that feels like it's wholly involved in the world of the game, and where you can see a discernible change when you put a point in it. It's about an amalgamation of abilities being part of a skill - which, when you think about it, Ranged and Melee are too - instead of discrete elements that need to be individually handled, and which get frustrating and confusing in short order. Like - the fuck do you need a Unarmed skill in Fallout for past a certain point? And if you're going to argue the SPECIAL system as being sacrosanct, lookit the revamped skillset that was being used for Fallout 3 - VanBuren sometime. Things be CHANGED.

And also, if you're worried that "better ranged skill" = "better weapons," then no, it doesn't mean that. It just means you're more experienced at handling ranged weapons, and know how to "get the most" out of each shot, so to speak.

I understand that people see what they interpret as a more "simple" system and go berserk - but seriously, we don't want to have the kind of game where you create Enormously Complex Character of Enormous Complexitude and then have the game not give two shits in a hat about your choices throughout it. There are a lot of interconnected systems that may look more simplified on the outside, but tie into each other in complex, easily-manipulated ways. And we want a solid system that we don't have to constantly backtrack to tweak to make obscure skills feel loved, but put that time into character decisions such as figuring out what to do with someone you discover stealing food, or if someone's mother has been infected and antibiotics are running low. Shit like that is getting a bit closer attention than making sure that Mycology is a separate skill.

Again, you're fully welcome to disagree, and constructively argue your point. Just plz to do it over in the ITS forums because I like it to be my one-stop-shop for ZRPG stuff. I lurk here to be snarky and read LPs, not act like a responsible designer, goddammit! :twisted:

 

[bhlaab]

It sounds similar to Vampire, and I am okay with that.

 

[thesheeep]

Annie was such a nice girl when she first came here.
And now look what she has become..

...vagina infusion... GAEM JOB WEEOO... motherfuckers...shit...Shitbits...fuck...shits...goddammit

Anyway, I kinda agree with her. If those skill decisions are meaningful, and reflected good in-game, it may be something good after all

I'm just not that sure if I want to lurk at the ITS forums as well, I already lurk at TCancer, Codex and NMA...

 

[bhlaab]

Annie was such a nice girl when she first came here.
And now look what she has become..

I think the biggest reason employes decide to go indie is so they dont get in trouble for calling people cunts on the internet

 

[Annie Mitsoda]

Aw, I told you when I got here that I use the word "fuck" like a comma. It's me bein' me!

Understood about the lurking - ITS and the Codex are the only places I hit nowadays, when I used to frequent an industry board as well. I just wished to slide the consideration into your consciousness, if you have questions you want to be addressed by people other than just me. Brian set up his HQ at the ITS forums, and by jove that's about the only place he posts from. He does lurk here, but he no postie.

 

[Fat Dragon]

He does lurk here, but he no postie.

I bet he has a troll account.

 

[Darth Roxor]

He does lurk here, but he no postie.

I bet he has a troll account.

BLOBERT? :headsplosion:

 

[Multidirectional]

He does lurk here, but he no postie.

I bet he has a troll account.

BLOBERT? :headsplosion:

Yeah, that's why he had to decrease the number of skills, being BLOBERT takes up too much time.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

I wonder when will be "Walking" a skill in future RPG's?

Asheron's Call had a 'run' skill. The more you raised it the faster you ran.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Because the world needed more zombie games.

 

[treave]

Because the world needed more zombie RPGs.

 

[thesheeep]

Aw, I told you when I got here that I use the word "fuck" like a comma. It's me bein' me!

If I just ignore that fact, then it does not exist. And I do.

 

[RottingNaziSurfer]

It's like you need some kinda vagina infusion to spice up your lives with my XX chromosome SPICE.

If I had a nickel everytime a woman told me that, I'd have.....one nickel.

 

[jiujitsu]

I'm pretty sure that 90% of all RPGs have some form of zombie in it already... Sounds pointless to me.

 

[Multidirectional]

I'm pretty sure that 90% of all RPGs have some form of zombie in it already... Sounds pointless to me.

Yeah, cause the point of this game is obviously "kill the zombies", and nothing more.

 

[Monolith]

In serious news I has job now, so I is working job (IT IS A GAEM JOB WEEOO)

That means less time for DoubleBear. => smaller chance it ever gets done. A pretty girl like you should be able to get a proper supporter to fulfill your dreams and live a life at leisure and...well, at least that's how it's handled over here.

 

[shihonage]

we don't want to have the kind of game where you create Enormously Complex Character of Enormous Complexitude and then have the game not give two shits in a hat about your choices throughout it

I find your approach sober and clear-minded.

In serious news I has job now, so I is working job (IT IS A GAEM JOB WEEOO) AND working on DoubleBear stuff, so it is best of both worlds. It also means less postie on forums but that doesn't mean I like you any less. <3

With both competing for your creative drive, don't let this happen to you.

 

[denizsi]

I understand the furor over merging skills.

I wasn't concerned or raged over just merging of skills, as it makes perfect sense at low levels, but rather about how they compare at high levels and how bland -not to mention semi-idiotic I think it will make things (I still need an explanation on what "Ranged determines viable weapon choices" mean, since it doesn't mean success/efficiency because Brian additionally made a remark about efficiecny so your explanation doesn't really count unless Brian screwed up expressing himself; or what made you come up with "highest survival skill in the party = travel speed", which is right out of lands of consolia, despite a small number of Codexer scum sucking your dick and your erm, dick is metaphoric enough, about it)-, considering there are only 6 announced skills and the original plan is to add gained-by-default perks, which you wouldn't get to make a choice over (but now that there's the possibility of changing that slightly, it sounds better atm). Unfortunately, a good number of people misinterpreted it in ways I find unfortunate for them and made it sound like it the whole deal is really over the number of skills or wanting super-specialized characters.

Again, you're fully welcome to disagree, and constructively argue your point. Just plz to do it over in the ITS forums because I like it to be my one-stop-shop for ZRPG stuff. I lurk here to be snarky and read LPs, not act like a responsible designer, goddammit! :twisted:

So you want to merge forums too!

 

[Azrael the cat]

I can see how mechanics could cover both lockpicking and equipment maintenance...in a modern setting. It doesn't make sense if you're thinking fantasy-rpg style, where some guy in leather armour is trying to stealthily pick a lock using just a lockpick, without anyone hearing. That shite would be obsolete in a modern setting anyway...no way you're going to be using a lockpick on a deadlock or a modern safe. Instead, think of it more like 'safe-cracking'. You've got a guy with a power-drill, a small amount of explosive/corrosive chemicals and a bit of electrical knowledge trying to either drill through the lock or blow the safe/deadbolt without setting off the alarm system. That fits in pretty well with 'mechanics' in my view.

 

[Jaesun]

It's like the Justice League show back in the day - motherfuckers had to write some stupid stories having to deal with the ocean every now and then so Aquaman had some shit to do.

lol I always hated that. You go girl.