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Use as mobile bunkers still served a purpose, it often delayed the Germans. The tanks had endless problems, but the armor was good. How weird it must have been for the Germans, harking single T-34s or KV1s with 20mm and 37mm, which was practically blind, didn't have a radio, couldn't use its gearbox, but refused to go kaputt. Somewhere I came across a story of a whole division that was stalled almost a day by a single KV1.
It's because that KV1 was actually used as a mobile bunker instead of taking part of a blind change through infantry positions and into fields of fire of 88s and 105s.
They attempted to destroy it with a 88 but since it wasn't charging at masked guns but they had to drag the gun to a firing position, it destroyed the gun before it could destroy it.
 

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An Excerpt from Robert J. Kershaw's "War Without Garlands:
Operation Barbarossa 1941/ 42".

"An unpleasent surprise for the supremely confident Panzer troops was the quality of some of the Soviet equipments they soon faced.

On the Second Day of the Campaign, in the 6th Panzer Division sector, 12 German supply trucks were knocked out, one after the other, by a solitary unidentified Soviet heavy tank. The vehicle sat astride the road south of the River Dubysa near Rossieny. Further beyond, two German combat teams had already established bridgeheads on the other side of the river. They were about to be engaged in the first major tank battle of the eastern campaign. Their urgent resupply requirements had already been destroyed. Rutted muddy approaches and a nearby forest infested with bands of stay-behind Russian infantry negated any option to bypass. The Russian tank had to be eliminated. A battery of medium 50mm German anti-tank guns was sent forward to force the route.

The guns were skilfully manhandled by their crews through close terrain up to within 600m of their intended target. Three red-hot tracer-based sheks spat out at 823m/ sec, smacking into the tank with rapid and resounding 'plunks' one after the other. At first there was cheering but the crews became concerned as these and another five rounds spun majestically into the air as they ricocheted off the armour of the unknown tank type. Its turret came to life and remorselesly traversed in their direction. Within minutes the entire battery was silenced by a lethal succession of 76mm HE shecks that tore into them. Casualties were heavy.

Meanwhile a well cammoflaged 88mm Flak gun carefully crept forward, slowly towed by its half-track tractor, winding its way among cover provided by the 12 burnt-out German trucks strewn about the road. It got to within 900m of the Soviet tank before a further 76mm round spat out, spinning the gun into a roadside ditch. The crew, caught in the act of manhandling the trails into position, were mown down by a swathe of coaxial machine gun fire. Every sheck fired by the Russian tank appeared to be a strike. Nothing moved until nightfall when, under the cover of darkness, it was safe enought to recover the dead and wounded and salvage some of the knocked out equipments.

An inconclusive raid was mounted that night by assault engineers who managed to attatch two demolition charges onto this still, as yet, unidentified tank type. Both charges exploded, but retaliatory turret fire confirmed the tank was still in action. Three attacks had failed. Dive-bomber support was requested but not available. A fourth attack plan was developed involving a further 88mm Flak gun, supported this time by light Panzers which were to feint and provide covering fire in a co-ordinated daylight operation.

Panzers, utilizing tree cover, skirmished forward and began to engage the solitary tank from three directions. This confused the Russian tank which, in attempting to duel with these fast-moving and fleeting targets, was struck in the rear by the newly positioned 88mm Flak gun. Three rounds bore into the hull at over 1,000m/sec. The turret traversed rearward and stopped. There was no sign of an explosion or fire so a further four rounds smashed remorselesly into the apparently helpless target. Spent ricochets spun white-hot to the ground followed by the metallic signatures of direct impacts. Unexpectedly the Soviet gun barrel abruptly jerked skyward. With the engagement over at last, the nearest German troops moved forward to inspect their victim.

Excited and chattering they clambered aboard the armoured colossus. They had never seen such a tank before. Suddenly the turret began to rotate again and the soldiers frantically scattered. Two engineers had the presence of mind to drop two stick grenades into the interior of the tank, through one of the holes pierced by the shot at the base of the turret. Muffled explosions followed and the turret hatch clattered open with an exhalation of smoke. Peering inside the assualt engineers could just make out the mutilated remains of the crew. This single tank had blocked forward replenishment to the 6th Panzer Division vanguard for 48 hours. Only two 88mm shecks actually penetrated the armour; five others had gouged deep dents. Eight carbonised blue marks were the only indication of 50mm gun impacts. There was no trace at all of the supporting Panzer strikes, many of which had clearly been seen to hit.

The nature of the enemy armoured threat had irretrievably altered. General Halder wrote in his diary that night: 'New heavy enemy tank!...a new feature in the sectors of Army Group South and Army Group North is the new heavy Russian tanks, reportedly to be armed with 8cm guns and, according to another but untrustworthy observation from Army Group North, even 15cm guns'

This was the KV-1 (Klim Voroshilov) which mounted a 76.2mm gun. Its sister variant the KV-2, although more unwieldly, did have a 15cm gun[actually its 15.2cm]...."
 

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:retarded:

I don't know much about tanks, but even a quick glance at that article reveals overload of bias and butthurt.

Eh, most of it is more or less true but I was thoroughly butthurt by his reasoning against post-war Soviet tanks. Basing your arguments on the performance of the gimped export variety of the T-72 in the hands of the awful Iraqi army is pretty stupid.
 

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:retarded:

I don't know much about tanks, but even a quick glance at that article reveals overload of bias and butthurt.

Eh, most of it is more or less true but I was thoroughly butthurt by his reasoning against post-war Soviet tanks. Basing your arguments on the performance of the gimped export variety of the T-72 in the hands of the awful Iraqi army is pretty stupid.

Thats what i mean. Again, i don't know much about WW2 tanks, but how can i rely on analysis by someone who is that ignorant about T-72 and quotes Tom Clancy?
 

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:retarded:

I don't know much about tanks, but even a quick glance at that article reveals overload of bias and butthurt.

Eh, most of it is more or less true but I was thoroughly butthurt by his reasoning against post-war Soviet tanks. Basing your arguments on the performance of the gimped export variety of the T-72 in the hands of the awful Iraqi army is pretty stupid.

Joos defeated an Army armed with western provided M-47s and M-48s: Royal Jordanian Army... and to be honest they would not stand a chance against force not composed by Arabs who didn't win a war on their own since VIII Century.
 

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Ah... seems to be a mistake there, your german numbers don't include living POWS held, it's KIA,MIA+died in captivity numbers.

Hamster I will go through the numbers again.
Check the eastern front page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II)

Ok. I am a bit surprised but over the whole war, 1 : 1,3 can be accepted. But this includes the capitulation of entire Axis armies at the end, and that loss is not really "operational".
On one hand i agree, but on the other it's kinda not fair to the victorious side - if they achieved complete capitulation of the enemy it means they did something right. In the end, kill ratio is just an abstraction that can only tell so much.
 

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At least it confirms where the 1:1.3 comes from, and why it cannot be discounted. I would still like to see a figure minus the armies that capitulated in '45, to compare actual operational performance.
 

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Joos defeated an Army armed with western provided M-47s and M-48s: Royal Jordanian Army... and to be honest they would not stand a chance against force not composed by Arabs who didn't win a war on their own since VIII Century.


I don't know about that. The IDF is pretty good and has a lot of neat toys. What Israel lacks is strategical depth. Then again they have a buttload of nukes. Also I wouldn't make blanket statements about Arab military prowess. Look at the Hezbollah, those are some hard fucking dudes. I guess making blanket statements is kind of your shtick though so by all means carry on.

Thats what i mean. Again, i don't know much about WW2 tanks, but how can i rely on analysis by someone who is that ignorant about T-72 and quotes Tom Clancy?

By being a Kwa military fanboy. Seriously, these kind of people are disgrace to war aficionados. Tom Clancy is a dumb cunt.
 
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Thats what i mean. Again, i don't know much about WW2 tanks, but how can i rely on analysis by someone who is that ignorant about T-72 and quotes Tom Clancy?
Obviously, it's not his own opinion and it's not based on his research. He copied the information about T-34 from books written by people who actually did their research or from posts of people who have read those books.

The red army apologists look at the whole thing from the wrong angle. Taking in account the amount of hardware that it had, the right question isn't "Why did Soviet Union win the war if red army was so awful?" but "Why didn't the red army reach Berlin by the end of 1941?".
With the return of manoeuvre warfare thanks to mechanized and motorized units, if red army were competent, the whole thing would be more like Franco-Prussian war of 1870 where France has attacked Germany and got it's ass kicked repeatedly by numerically superior Prussians and ended up with Paris besieged before the end of 1870.

Additionally, while post-war Soviet education system was very good and it and it's legacy in Soviet/post-Soviet countries allowed average high-school goer to attain high level of education and produced many world-class specialist, it was not so during the inter-war years.
The Bolshevik revolution and times soon after it include mass repressions against intelligentsia, including teachers, scientists and professors and later, when it turned out that functioning of the "workers republic" isn't possible without educated people creating common access to higher education included lots of dumbing down of curriculum and elimination of "bourgeois sciences" like higher maths, knowledge of materials, etc.
Which produced engineers who couldn't calculate stuff but had to do everything experimentally by trial and error, commanders who couldn't do any equations, didn't understand fractions and couldn't read maps and similar horrors.
Soviet leadership was trying to fix that stuff in late 20s and 30s but it was too little and too late. They managed to buy/copy lots of technologies from the west and had unprecedented military budget because the central economy could decide that building a massive army and industry is more important than feeding it's citizens (most of other countries were limited by those pesky individuals and entrepreneurs who owned stuff).
Thanks to the Bolshevik madness, in 1941 the red army had vast quantities of underdeveloped hardware and lots of undereducated soldiers and commanders. Which is why it has reached Berlin only in 1945 after paying a disproportionally high price in blood.

WWII was basically about the khazar freak Josif Stalin slowly and painfully getting his head out of his ass and realising that he can't win wars by living in fictional world while the melonhead freak Adolf Hitler was keeping his head deep into his ass because he didn't fuck up his country before the war as badly as Bolsheviks and had delusions that he can win the war thanks to Great German Genius.
As soon as the red army stopped being a completely incompetent mess, Germans started losing thanks to Hitler's idiocy and because there wasn't enough of them.

Sadly, 20000000-27000000 Russians had to die because of the madness and incompetence of Bolsheviks.
 

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This was a great thread and then DU showed up and masterfully trolled all of the ruskies. FLAWLESS VICTORY, DU
:5/5:
If making himself look uneducated is masterfull, then many schoolboys can be counted as great trolls, and youtube comments are very interesting read.
The difference is very easy to explain, the director was given complete freedom to do whatever he wants, exactly because it was assumed that if government interferes results will be "idiotic and shameful". In practice it turned out to be the other way around.

No. It can't be explained that way. When someone, including government, give some dude butload of money for the movie, it's expected, that they must control production. So they can't excuse themselves that way. And officials wasn't even very eager about denouncing result.
But creating restriction or banning content created by third party, based on subjective criteas is the other matter. Government can't be effective at it and it better leave judgements on consumers.
Or situation would be similar to Australian's one. Or even much more crazy. And I don't want to live in Australia.

The main thing that he doesn't get is that the main reason why Red Army took such horrific losses was that the army was badly trained, badly organized and badly commanded, not because they were desperate. And the main reason why it was badly organized and badly commanded was the Soviet mentality and the decimation of the Russian intelligentsia during the Bolshevik rule.

Lol. Let's see, what things usually came on mind, when talking about SU in the first year of Great Patriotic War:
1. Purge of capable military officers in the end of 30s by Stalin.
2. Stalin's neglect of warnings about the coming war.
3. Army, which was in the middle of modernization, again because time of war was miscalculated.
4. Industry, which was placed in European part of SU and needed been relocated in the East, before SU can start to use all it's industrial capabilities. That again connected to 2.
5. Poorly prepared and more poorly executed Finland campaign. It's made SU look vulnerable. And also inability to properly conquer or successfuly negotiate with Finland put Leningrad in much more harsh situation.

It all can be classified as Stalin personal miscalculation and strategical mistakes. And he was too much control freak before war started. And I don't see in that list anything about "soviet mentality", "decimation of the Russian intelligentsia" or Bolshevik as a whole.

T-34 was non-functional since it had a horrible gearbox, horrible observation abilities and horrible internal communication. KV was tended to break down a lot because of bad suspension.

T-34 wasn't in complete state in the 41, but call it non-fuctional looks like a joke.

The Bolshevik revolution and times soon after it include mass repressions against intelligentsia, including teachers, scientists and professors and later, when it turned out that functioning of the "workers republic" isn't possible without educated people creating common access to higher education included lots of dumbing down of curriculum and elimination of "bourgeois sciences" like higher maths, knowledge of materials, etc.

Let's look on one random person, who can be called intelligent and live in that period. First, who popped in my head was Landau:
Wikipedia said:
Landau was born on January 22, 1908 to Jewish parents[2][3][4] in Baku, in what was then the Russian Empire. Landau's father was an engineer with the local oil industry and his mother was a doctor. Recognized very early as a child prodigy in mathematics, Landau was quoted as saying in later life that he scarcely remembered a time when he was not familiar with calculus. Landau graduated at 13 from gymnasium. His parents considered him too young to attend university, so for a year he attended the Baku Economical Technicum. In 1922, at age 14, he matriculated at Baku State University, studying in two departments simultaneously: the department of Physics and Mathematics, and the department of Chemistry. Subsequently he ceased studying chemistry, but remained interested in the field throughout his life.
In 1924, he moved to the main centre of Soviet physics at the time: the Physics Department of Leningrad State University. In Leningrad, he first made the acquaintance of genuine theoretical physics and dedicated himself fully to its study, graduating in 1927. Landau subsequently enrolled for post-graduate study at the Leningrad Physico-Technical Institute, and at 21, received a doctorate. Landau got his first chance to travel abroad in 1929, on a Soviet government traveling fellowship supplemented by a Rockefeller Foundation fellowship.
After brief stays in Göttingen and Leipzig, he went to Copenhagen to work at Niels Bohr's Institute for Theoretical Physics. After the visit, Landau always considered himself a pupil of Niels Bohr and Landau's approach to physics was greatly influenced by Bohr. After his stay in Copenhagen, he visited Cambridge and Zürich before returning to the Soviet Union.

Between 1932 and 1937 he headed the department of theoretical physics at the Kharkov Polytechnical Institute. Apart from his theoretical accomplishments, Landau was the principal founder of a great tradition of theoretical physics in Kharkov, Soviet Union, sometimes referred to as the "Landau school". In Kharkov, he and his friend and former student, Evgeny Lifshitz, began writing the Course of Theoretical Physics, ten volumes that together span the whole of the subject and are still widely used as graduate-level physics texts. During the Great Purge, Landau was investigated within the UPTI Affair in Kharkov, but he managed to leave for Moscow to take up a new post.[5]
Landau developed a comprehensive exam called the "Theoretical Minimum" which students were expected to pass before admission to the school. The exam covered all aspects of theoretical physics, and between 1934 and 1961 only 43 candidates passed.

Landau was the head of the Theoretical Division at the Institute for Physical Problems from 1937 until 1962.[6] Landau was arrested on April 27, 1938, because he had compared the Stalinist dictatorship with that of Hitler,[5][7] and was held in the NKVD's Lubyanka prison until his release on April 29, 1939, after the head of the institute Pyotr Kapitsa, an experimental low-temperature physicist, wrote a letter to Joseph Stalin, personally vouching for Landau's behavior, and threatening to quit the institute if Landau were not released.[8] After his release Landau discovered how to explain Kapitza's superfluidity using sound waves, or phonons, and a new excitation called a roton.[5]
Landau led a team of mathematicians supporting Soviet atomic and hydrogen bomb development. Landau calculated the dynamics of the first Soviet thermonuclear bomb, including predicting the yield. For this work he received the Stalin Prize in 1949 and 1953, and was awarded the title "Hero of Socialist Labor" in 1954.[5]
His students included Lev Pitaevskii, Alexei Abrikosov, Arkady Levanyuk, Evgeny Lifshitz, Lev Gor'kov, Isaak Khalatnikov, Boris L. Ioffe, Roald Sagdeev and Isaak Pomeranchuk.

Clearly SU in 20s-30s looks like some technological backwater.
Of course some people regulary like to say, that might of Soviet Union after WW2 was founded by people, that began their career in that time. Or even such absurd thing, that literacy rate grow rapidly then. But they are clearly crazy.
 

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Stalin in 4 February 1931: "We are fifty or a hundred years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or they will crush us."
It's a key to understanding everything that Stalin did after that. Sadly, it took one too much year to finish modernization.
 
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Lol. Let's see, what things usually came on mind, when talking about SU in the first year of Great Patriotic War:
1. Purge of capable military officers in the end of 30s by Stalin.
2. Stalin's neglect of warnings about the coming war.
3. Army, which was in the middle of modernization, again because time of war was miscalculated.
4. Industry, which was placed in European part of SU and needed been relocated in the East, before SU can start to use all it's industrial capabilities. That again connected to 2.
5. Poorly prepared and more poorly executed Finland campaign. It's made SU look vulnerable. And also inability to properly conquer or successfuly negotiate with Finland put Leningrad in much more harsh situation.

It all can be classified as Stalin personal miscalculation and strategical mistakes. And he was too much control freak before war started. And I don't see in that list anything about "soviet mentality", "decimation of the Russian intelligentsia" or Bolshevik as a whole.
The red army was permanently in the middle of modernization since the beginning of 30s with soviet industry shitting out tons of poorly designed tanks. Also, it doesn't explain anything, because shit training and coordination was already visible in manoeuvres of 1935 where and generally, there was a tendency to manufacture mountains of hardware without ensuring that there's adequately trained army to use it.
And the characteristic shit performance with armoured units charging in blindly from march with disastrous consequences made its combat début in the Soviet-Japanese conflict of 1938-1939.

And shit like purges and constant organizational chaos was a part of the soviet mentality. And purging capable officers should fall under decimation of intelligentsia, shouldn't it?

T-34 wasn't in complete state in the 41, but call it non-fuctional looks like a joke.
Functional tanks have stuff like internal communication system, gearbox that doesn't require two hands or help of a second person to switch a gear, decent observation devices and stuff like that.

Let's look on one random person, who can be called intelligent and live in that period. First, who popped in my head was
How about another random example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matvei_Bronstein

And lots of other scientists starved to death, murdered, imprisoned or forced into emigration?

And decimation means "killing 1 in 10", not killing everyone.

Also, some technological/scientific progress doesn't prove that Soviet Union was a sane or well organized place and that it wouldn't do much better without the Bolshevik insanity.

Of course some people regulary like to say, that might of Soviet Union after WW2 was founded by people, that began their career in that time. Or even such absurd thing, that literacy rate grow rapidly then. But they are clearly crazy.
Literacy is something that can be easily taught even to children.
But keeping on topic, somehow it didn't result in Soviet Union getting a competent military cadre, despite that almost all countries managed to get it. By competent, I mean proficient at use of basic tactics and hardware.
Or competent industrial cadre.
The story of Soviet tank development is some kind of a horrible trainwreck full of grotesque incompetence and copied rejected and outdated western technologies and in the second half of 30s whole design teams getting imprisoned or executed for being "fascists" or belonging to some absurd sounding conspiracies.
And yes, Bolsheviks were crazy. In sane countries you don't get political repressions and purges.
 

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Who at the time had more competent cadre and better hardware than USSR, besides Germany?

The Brits. No question. And the French had better hardware (not sure about their planes but the tanks were good) albeit a shitty officer corps. Actually I'm not so sure the French officers were any worse than the Soviet ones in 1939-40. Their high command were obviously straight dumbfucks but on a tactical level they weren't doing terribly.
 

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In terms of tanks both Brits and French had good tanks, Matilda and Char B1 gave Germans lots of problems during invasion of France and during North Africa campaign Valentine and American M3 Lee also were quite a problem.
 

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In terms of tanks both Brits and French had good tanks, Matilda and Char B1 gave Germans lots of problems during invasion of France and during North Africa campaign Valentine and American M3 Lee also were quite a problem.

The Americans are disqualified on account of basically not having any armour at all at the start of the war. The M3 was designed in like 1940. I also would very much hesitate to call it good.
 

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I can believe that Britain had better planes and ships (may be way better, even), but I have read a lot of unflattering things about british tanks. And unless I'm mistaken, UK did good in ground battles vs Italy, but never against Germany, and overall damage to Axis was barely noticable, compared to Eastern front.
 

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I can believe that Britain had better planes and ships (may be way better, even), but I have read a lot of unflattering things about british tanks. And unless I'm mistaken, UK did good in ground battles vs Italy, but never against Germany, and overall damage to Axis was barely noticable, compared to Eastern front.

Not really true as said Matilda was a major problem to Germans both in France and Africa since only 88 could penetrate its frontal armor. Actually 88 was first uses as AT gun versus Matilda when British tank force almost overrun Rommels division in France, seeing that both his tanks and AT guns cant do shit he ordered everything in his disposal to fire at British tanks, that included 88s that up till then were used only as anti air guns. The Brits actually gave Germans lots of problems in Afrika and only with some strokes of brilliance did he manage to push Brits.

The M3 was designed in like 1940. I also would very much hesitate to call it good.

It was good compared to German tanks it encountered in Afika.
 

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It was good compared to German tanks it encountered in Afika.

Well yeah, but one of the main problem for the Afrikakorps was a dire lack of up to date armoured and mechanized assets. Besides we were comparing different nations to Soviet hardware which by 1942 included said M3 tank of which they received a significant number via lend lease. Nothing I've seen points to it performing better than even the original T34.
 

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Well yeah, but one of the main problem for the Afrikakorps was a dire lack of up to date armoured and mechanized assets. Besides we were comparing different nations to Soviet hardware which by 1942 included said M3 tank of which they received a significant number via lend lease. Nothing I've seen points to it performing better than even the original T34.

Im not saying that it was better then T34, just that even other nations had better tanks then Germans in the early stages of war.
 

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