Dragon Age will change the way BioWare writes party members!

[bat_boro]

I think it will go down much better for you once it has been televised.

Yeah, HBO have a habbit of making awesome TV series and I hope this will be their best
Which sort of brings up the question - why is there no computer game on ASOIAF?
I think a RPG based on this universe would be pure awesomeness

 

[Gromnir]

Sansa in later ASoIaF books?

ANYHOW. I know it's hard not to go to those stereotypes because they're touchstones many players can relate to (like classes in a party dynamic - people know what to do with them because they've worked with them before), and often when you go contrary to them people are either like WTF or call them out for being deliberate 180's from what's expected.

BUT. That's no excuse for shitty writing and sloppy characterization, and goddamn if I can't stand "wooo I'm a girl so I'm a HEEEEEALER or a MAAAAGE" bullshit. And also them being in their mid-20's and stupid hot. /facepalm.

using stereotypes not preclude well-developed and compelling character. on the other hand, simply be different to be different not get no brownie points. case-in-point: motb. talk 'bout sloppy characterization. dove and the hagspwn were lame cliches right outta the worst fantasy pulp works, but chrisA dresses up in wacky bodies to camouflage? terrible. yeah, dove is a winged celestial, but she is that predictably wooden Soldier of Justice we has seen so many times before. and Gann, as the jolly rogue with mommy issues... *snort*

just 'cause a writer starts with some wacky concept not mean he gets to quit developing the character. do that and you get typical anime nonsense wherein crazy concepts and scenarios lead to the ironically oh- so-familiar characters playing their painfully pre-determined roles... a "kewl" concept is not a valid replacement for character development.

nothing is wrong with Starting with the stereotype, particularly in a crpg. games is not like a novel in which an author can spend hundreds o' pages o' text to develop a character... have 'em inch slowly towards daylight. nope, you is probably lucky if you is having some double handful o' dialogue encounters in your game to go from intro to denouement... but don't make development seem rushed. HA! if archetype helps speed tings along, then so be it. use archetype means that nothing is lost by leaving some gaps in development, 'cause the audience already Knows the archetype. writer still must develop (and hopefully distinguish) his character from all the other portrayals of said archetype, but use of such stuff in games is understandable.

different not = better. archetype not = bad. different w/o actual meaningful development is why Gromnir hates anime... and some of chrisA's recent crpg work. slam biowarians if you wish, but am gonna take jolee bindo (and even jan jansen) over visas marr any day o' the week and twice on tuesday.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Gnidrologist]

Bioware devs are nice bunch of folks with families and many jolly friends. That's why they can't cater to elitist intelectual snobs - a wicked bunch of obnoxious nerds and twisted minded freaks who live alone, masturbate frequently and say nasty things on the internet.

 

[bat_boro]

...

And here I was, thinking that Kaelyn and Gann were two of the best characters in a cRPG I've seen.
Silly me.

 

[Smarts]

Also Martin has killed off a total of two POV characters

He's killed five, in fact. Though two of them were only POV characters for the purposes of introductory chapters, and one came back to life - arguably as a very different person.

The series isn't over, though. As of the end of Feast for Crows, one more POV character appears to have died, and another is reported dead.

 

[Worm King]

Martin doesn't just kill his characters, he tortures them. Jaime lost his hand, Arya her sight, Brienne(or how the ugly woman knight was called) got a chunk bitten off of her face etc.

 

[Gromnir]

...

And here I was, thinking that Kaelyn and Gann were two of the best characters in a cRPG I've seen.
Silly me.

some people thinks hk-47 were a fantastic written character too. is all kinds o' wacky opinions out there and yours is no less valid than Gromnir's... though chances are you not know what you is talking 'bout if you honest think that dove and gann were well written. like or not, dove and gann were terribly cliche. WHAT they were was the only thing unique or genuine interesting 'bout 'em. unlike ps:t's ravel puzzlewell, or even kotor2's kreia, we never got genuine development o' the WHO aspect o' motb characters... 'least not in a positive fashion. if dove were simply a male human paladin whould you have given a damn 'bout her character? probably not. give some banal character a unique shtick not make it well-written... not by a long shot.

but again, hk-47 still shows up on Best Evar npc lists, and even Gaider admits that his assassin robot were kinda a one-trick pony. just 'cause you like not make it genuine well-written, even by crpg standards. fact that you thinks that gann and dove were swell is hardly noteworthy from Gromnir's pov. 'course fact that you like is Very meaningful for developers. tell 'em why you like, and get enough people agreeing with you, and maybe they does more such crap in the future.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[bat_boro]

So the way I see it you are arguing about the fact that both Kaelyn and Gann were pretty good developed from the start of the game and as it progressed they didn't have a giant leap forward or a neat little twist in their character development?
From this point of view, Aribeth from NWN 1 was a better developed character simply for the fact that she would change sides at the middle of the game.

 

[Gromnir]

So the way I see it you are arguing about the fact that both Kaelyn and Gann were pretty good developed from the start of the game and as it progressed they didn't have a giant leap forward or a neat little twist in their character development?
From this point of view, Aribeth from NWN 1 was a better developed character simply for the fact that she would change sides at the middle of the game.

where you get that Gromnir thought dove and hag-boy were particularly good at any part of motb? motb characters were shtick. they were concept w/o anything else.

again, if dove had been a man and a human paladin, is virtually nobody who woulda liked the "character." fact that chrisA disguised banal with a wacky concept did NOTimprove the writing or the character. don't get confuse good writing with a kewl concept. shtick.

and go easy on the strawman routine.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[roshan]

Kaelyn and Gann sucked. They were a minor improvement over some of the outright terribly written NPCs in the OC (like Zhjaeve, who pledges herself into your slavery for no fucking reason at all). But that isnt saying anything good. Gann and Kaelyn were bland and uninteresting (in terms of personality), had no depth and barely developed over the course of the story (particularly Kaelyn), and so on. Worse still, you gained "influence" with them, which did not really allow you to influence them at all,and just served as a measure of how much you sucked up to them.

 

[Annonchinil]

So how are Okku, One of Many and the Red Wizard?

 

[poocolator]

Okku is endearing, if for no other reason than being a giant, fluffy, yet angry, bear. One of many I never encountered. The Red Wizard, Shanna (or something?) is the only romance option and so I definitely sucked up to her. Every once in a while, when you pass your influence check with her, she'd show you her tender, loving side before going back to that take-no-shit Red Wizard persona.

Apparently Red Wizards are supposed to be evil-aligned, but I think she was made an exception. The stories she tells about life back at the academy are frightful >.<

I never saw the appeal to Kaelyn (sp?) since she was a damned, emotionless bitch in my eyes; although I can imagine it would be fun to flirt and talk dirty with her, especially with her being so naiive.

Gann I despised when I met him, but he grew on me as the story progressed and he provided insight into whatever the hell was going on at the time. I began to see him as more than a fucking dick-for-brains scoundrel.

 

[spacemoose]

shut up gann is one of the best written npcs ever

Spoiler

apart from the rather streamlined meeting w/his mom that is

 

[Avu]

As someone who's read the books through three times and even took one of the character's names, I feel the need to comment.

All of the characters in ASOIAF are terrible people and become less and less likable as the reader gets to know them better. And Jon Snow is a Marty Stu, not Dany, who killed her unborn son, massacred cities, and has an ever-growing god complex. At least the self-insertion character (Tyrion) isn't a Marty Stu, as that would be even more cringeworthy than Jon's chapters. Seriously, he deserts and then, instead of execution, is made lord commander? WTF he should have been killed off.

Also Martin has killed off a total of two POV characters so he doesn't really deserve the reputation of anyone can die. Turtledove killed off a POV and added a POV every book in his alternate civil war timeline, and wrote 10 books in as many years. Meanwhile, Martin adds about 4 POVs for every one killed off, and will probably never finish.

So Jon is more Sue'ish than Danny I never Danny never denied that. Your point is? Is there some rule that states one Sue per book? And it's not like Jon has everything going for him. He gets his balls frozen all the time he has to kill a friend in order to survive, he gets to become the lord coomander of pretty much an underpowered undermanned organization that has to face the great evil all the while having Stannis and Mellisandre on his back. They're not perfect Mary/Gary whatever Sues but they are the closesest thing in Martin's world.

Btw when did Danny kill her unborn son? Wasn't he killed by that bitch maegy? The one that made Drogo a zombie?

All of Martins character are Human they have flaws like everyone else and they deal with things in flawed human ways. They become less and less likeable as you read? I find the opossite to be true. Jaime starts like a villain and he gets to be many people's favorite after he gets his pov. If you really really want unlikeable characaters read Prince of Nothing everyone there is unreadeamable on so many levels.

And what does it matter if Martin deserves his reputation for killing POV characters? Is that a goal in itself? The goal is to keep the reader on his toes. If he kills someone it can be anyone. I would not be surprised if he kills Danny Jon Tyrion anyone and everyone heck I would not be surprised if the Others win.

It isnt about holding absolute truth you m..... its about understanding what you read past that jerry springer PoV of yours.

I think it will go down much better for you once it has been televised.

How about your take on what we are supposed to understand with arguments and such because frankly logical fallacies are fail.

 

[Vibalist]

o' o' o' o' o' o'

Is your 'f' button broken?

 

[laclongquan]

As we are talking about jrpg game characters (or game stereotypes) lemme reminiscene for a while

Tifa, a village-girl-turn-barmaid, a brawling heroine of FF7. I like her better than Aeris. Actually, I like Aeris least of all. Even Yuffie is livelier. Tifa is a strong girl, in more meanings than one.

Quistis! Now, Quistis Trepes is a gem. Older-girl type of character, she got emo issues but she still try doing her job. Unconciously tortured by the past (it's something to do with GF but nothing to worry your pretty heads about) but she still move forward. Pity that jerk Squall pick the younger-girl. And if that's not enough for you, remember that Quistis use whips. Long whips! Cat of Nine Tails!

Garnett/Dagger, a paler character compared to the two above, nevertheless she's a worthy addition to the FF series. From cleric types change to thief type. Well, a bit more coloured version of Garnett would be Yuna. Princess burdened with her heritage but still try to discharge her duty. I dont hate the type but the depth is not enough.

As for Chronos Cross, and Trigger, another time perhaps.