Dragon Age will change the way BioWare writes party members!

[Lesifoere]

I liked Safiya, but let's not forget that she's also romanceable in a totally implausible manner. (Possibly explicable because the underlying connection between her and the PC, but I don't know if that's particularly satisfactory.) She's also got the whole vulnerable/scared thing going on with the voices in her head.

I didn't romance her, but I recall that she's able to deal with those voices fairly well on her own. Safiya may have problems, but she doesn't require babying to get through them, which is what Bioware characters do.

I'm not sure the qualities you go on to list though -- a man who's lost a loved one and is a veteran of wars and as a result has emotional baggage -- is really a compelling criticism of Bioware. Isn't that a basic framework that's important and worth examining, even over and over again?

Not when the character has the same type of dialogue over and over again, is voiced by the same actor, looks identical, etc etc. It's nice how you ignored those points.

FFG is... not exactly naive, you know.

It's been years since I played the game, but my recollection was that she did have a naive, vulernable streak with respect to the PC, and went around blushing at everyone's inuendoes. But it's been a while.

Huh? No. If anything, I recall Annah getting flustered by Grace, and FFG traded suggestive comments with Morte with no problem. FFG's main objection to kissing TNO is that if she does so, she'd kill him and despite his immortality, dying mustn't be very pleasant. Actually, now that I'm browsing the "novelization" (which is the game's dialogue gathered in a long word document), she doesn't even get flustered when TNO asks her about being a "camp follower." She just calmly explains that she wasn't raped, as such.

Maybe it's that Gann wasn't loved as a child and never had a stable home, so he needs you to give him a place where he fits in.

Having gone through his romance, I was pleasantly surprised by how little psychotherapy he needs. Also, that you can gain influence with him by being snarky toward him, not just by agreeing with every single thing that he spouts. Morte wasn't particularly childish, either. Burdened by guilt, sure, but not emo. Dak'kon was probably the worst/most codependent of the lot.

Bioware does the same thing for its male and female characters. Heck, you even note it above, writing with respect to the Carth model that he's "supposed to be a mature adult, but behaves much younger, being prone to blushing" and "is loaded with a lot of emotional baggage." You add that he makes "obvious attempts to garner sympathy" and makes embarassing "confessions of undying love."

Isn't that the very essence of being "deep down an emotionally vulnerable child who can neither function nor think without the aid of the ... PC"?

Maybe, but with the exception of Ashley (whom, apparently, a lot of Biotards hate--no idea why), the female ones are particularly bad. Liara has the emotional depth of a small spoon and constantly tries to throw herself at the PC; Aerie's level of emotional damage has never been matched by any of the male NPCs, and I still haven't seen any male Bioware character flip-flop between the "dark" and "light" sides only to be redeemed by true love and then fall apart in the female PC's slim-yet-strong arms. Bioware's female NPCs not only lack depth--they don't even have any semblance of dignity.

The subliminated gay romances of LOTR don't require all the characters pandering to each other and working through their childhood letdowns.

Wait, what? The subliminated... gay romances? Not that I don't find it amusing, being familiar with the LOTR fandom, but are you suggesting it's actually canon?

 

[Avu]

Sansa mention! RARE AND UNCANNY! /highfive! Fucking talk about character development. I went from hating her guts to really admiring her. Daenerys is more standard when you think about it, as is Arya (though I love her to death) but goddamn does Sansa impress me later on.

I rather like Sansa, although (or because) she's one unlucky girl (and I'm not sure that's over). But I like Daenerys more, because she puts her brain to good use (as opposed to, say, Catelyn... or Cersei). Maybe she'll get some character development if "A dance with dragons" is ever published.
I also really love Asha Greyjoy, who's smart, ambitious and ruthless.

Sansa unlucky? She bloody well made her own luck. The stupid bitch got a young boy murdered, her direwolf, her father just so that psychotic freak Joffrey would love her even though the bitch has no clue what love is. No matter how you want to romantize her situation the facts are that the Hound and Littlefinger have actually helped her. If things were lucky for her she would have ended up the abused wife of Joffrey the king, probably beaten to death one day if not gang rapped by his "loyal" bodyguars when he got bored with the stupid bitch. Currently she is learning the trade from LF but slowly and not as a concious action. The thing is I still want the bitch dead and will want her dead no matter what.

Daenerys on the other hand is the typical fantasy Mary Sue. She gets everything handed to her she has royal blood is destined for glory and all that crap. Let's face it she get's it extremely easy. I hope she dies as well just for the fariness of it all. Would make a nice twist too.

As for the much maligned Catelyn everyone seems to hate her and consider her stupid. She is far from it She gives great advice on multiple ocasions advice that just seems to have the bad luck of never actually helping or being ignored. Her big flaw is that she is very emotional about her family. Her priorities are family duty honor in that order. Sure she frees Jayme and that might be stupid but as it turns out he would have kept his word. In the end having too many children to help makes her help none. I wish lady stoneheart good hunting.

 

[hiver]

Daenerys had it all given to her? Excuse me?
Extremely easy? gtfo

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Well, Daenerys was mostly just a vehicle for Martin's creepy sex fantasies (PSYCHIC DRAGON MASTURBATION) up until recently, which isn't much better

 

[Erebus]

Sansa unlucky? She bloody well made her own luck. The stupid bitch got a young boy murdered, her direwolf, her father just so that psychotic freak Joffrey would love her even though the bitch has no clue what love is.

She was pretty stupid at first, but she has been evolving the hard way. It was hardly her fault if Joffrey was a complete monster and I'm not so sure being in the hands of Littlefinger is a good thing. Although I haven't read the first book in a while, I'm fairly sure she wasn't responsible for her wolf being killed : Cersei did that out of sheer pettiness, because she couldn't take revenge on Arya's wolf.

Daenerys on the other hand is the typical fantasy Mary Sue. She gets everything handed to her she has royal blood is destined for glory and all that crap. Let's face it she get's it extremely easy. I hope she dies as well just for the fariness of it all. Would make a nice twist too.

She doesn't exactly get it "easy" : after her husband's death, she's shown a lot of courage, strength and wits. She's had a lot of successes so far (her story has to move quickly if it's ever to merge with what's happening in the Seven Kingdoms) but I'm sure that things will soon become more difficult for her.

As for the much maligned Catelyn everyone seems to hate her and consider her stupid.

Because she is. Basing herself on Littlefinger's word and ludicrously weak evidence, she captures Tyrion for the attempted murder of her son, thus hastening the war with the Lannister. And then, after Jaime has been captured, she sends him back to his family with Brienne alone as an escort, apparently believing that Jaime's father will feel bound to courteously send back her daughters in return. Stupid is not a strong enough word, really.

 

[David Xachaturian]

Someone's actually DISCUSSING Bioware characters??? Lol. May I just chuckle and point my finger at you all?

 

[Hümmelgümpf]

I liked Safiya, but let's not forget that she's also romanceable in a totally implausible manner. (Possibly explicable because the underlying connection between her and the PC, but I don't know if that's particularly satisfactory.) She's also got the whole vulnerable/scared thing going on with the voices in her head.

I didn't romance her, but I recall that she's able to deal with those voices fairly well on her own. Safiya may have problems, but she doesn't require babying to get through them, which is what Bioware characters do.

Spoiler

She is actually in love with Akachi, and if you release the curse she leaves you. So much for true love.

Maybe it's that Gann wasn't loved as a child and never had a stable home, so he needs you to give him a place where he fits in.

Having gone through his romance, I was pleasantly surprised by how little psychotherapy he needs. Also, that you can gain influence with him by being snarky toward him, not just by agreeing with every single thing that he spouts.

You lose influence for sucking up to him directly. Try to do this and he'll tell that he doesn't care about what you think. The most amazing thing is that Obsidian somehow managed to avoid turning him into a generic bad boy whose harshness is just a facade shielding his sensetive soul.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Maybe it's that Gann wasn't loved as a child and never had a stable home, so he needs you to give him a place where he fits in.

Having gone through his romance, I was pleasantly surprised by how little psychotherapy he needs. Also, that you can gain influence with him by being snarky toward him, not just by agreeing with every single thing that he spouts.

You lose influence for sucking up to him directly. Try to do this and he'll tell that he doesn't care about what you think. The most amazing thing is that Obsidian somehow managed to avoid turning him into a generic bad boy whose harshness is just a facade shielding his sensetive soul.

There's also his always calm and controlled behaviour.

And the "I speak with the rivers and mountains" speech he gives is absolutely fantastic. As is his threat to the Coven.

 

[Gragt]

You lose influence for sucking up to him directly. Try to do this and he'll tell that he doesn't care about what you think. The most amazing thing is that Obsidian somehow managed to avoid turning him into a generic bad boy whose harshness is just a facade shielding his sensetive soul.

Damn, that's true, I guess that's why I never felt like licking his boots, I never chose the option to. I need to replay that game.

 

[hiver]

Catelyin was not so stupid as she might have seemed at first retrospect.
if anything she beleived she will honour bound Jaimie to return her daughters back, not his father.

Of course it was her utter desperation and fear for her two daughters that was the biggest motivator.

Though in the end... she turns out to be right. Jaimie would have released her daughters if he could have.
Even if it meant going against his father directly - possibly seriously damaging Lanisters might overall.
For all she might have seen emotional she was right (kind off) about Jaimie the Kingslayer or oathbraker as he was widely known.
Something somebody more logical could never have figured out since everybody though him just a scum.


I think her logic and the way she acted was totally appropriate considering her character and the fact she lost her husband and Rickon and Bran at the north.
As the rest of the books, masterfully written by Martin.


Unlike many characters Daneryes begins in much worse conditions being a little girl on the run with psycho piece of shit brother whom she loves though its the most insane thing one can do, which he proves everyday. She is basicaly a slave, an underage piece of meat that can only be good to sell to someone.
Which happens soon. From constant humiliation and fear to slavery and rape. Everyday.

And now because she managed to find herself and actually adapt and believably grow and develop - she got it easy?

And on top of that two female posters Annie and Lesifoere value Sansa more.
Even though she sold her family for prancing around the court and pretty dresses and idiotic illusions of marying the king and blah blah blah and being just swept by events without managing to figure out what the hell is happening.

Explain please.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Someone's actually DISCUSSING Bioware characters??? Lol. May I just chuckle and point my finger at you all?

These are A Song of Ice and Fire characters. Not Bioware ones. Maybe I just chuckle and point my finger at you?

 

[Lesifoere]

Spoiler

She is actually in love with Akachi, and if you release the curse she leaves you. So much for true love.

Oh, fucking win. I must replay MotB with a male PC.

You lose influence for sucking up to him directly. Try to do this and he'll tell that he doesn't care about what you think. The most amazing thing is that Obsidian somehow managed to avoid turning him into a generic bad boy whose harshness is just a facade shielding his sensetive soul.

Yes, this. It's wonderful how the MotB characters are written: Gann never seems needy, Kaelyn never seems vulnerably naive, and Safiya can hold her own in every way--practical and ruthless without quite being evil, and surprisingly well-adjusted. MotB's cast is a triumph.

 

[Talonfire]

Spoiler

She is actually in love with Akachi, and if you release the curse she leaves you. So much for true love.

I actually got a happily ever after ending, looks like I should replay the game.

 

[Hümmelgümpf]

Spoiler

She is actually in love with Akachi, and if you release the curse she leaves you. So much for true love.

I actually got a happily ever after ending, looks like I should replay the game.

Spoiler

"Release" as in "Let the curse keep tormenting the poor Rashemi". Safya does stay with you if you use the mask to put Akachi to rest.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

Err, she leaves because she wants to end the curse and because, if you let it go free, you're not the superhero she wants to marry. Note that if you don't romance her, she becomes a bitter old maid living in the Academy like her "mother." (She can't figure out the "past lives" love for herself, by the way, but needs to be told that by the PC, and even then you can explain to her that it's not the past lives fueling your loves at this point.)

I wish I could find that Avellone post about PS:T, but no luck so far.

 

[Shannow]

Why is Sansa impressive?
She didnt do anything yet except stayed alive.

Her character that managed to pull any last bit of my nerves out of their sockets was more or less dragged along to the point when she isnt tearing my nerves so much i needed to curse out loud and knock out my butler every page or two.

While Arya and Deanyris both have different very strong motivations and mind of their own, Sansa doesnt, she is nothing but a pretty little bird prancing around. not to mention she should take a brick and beat herself to death if she ever manages to understand what she has done and how bloody stupid she was.

She certainly needs to achieve something yet, or anything for that matter to be impressive or worthwhile.

Why the hell are two intelligent women considering her as interesting in this kind of thread when she is a classic stupid bimbo character. (though Martin masterfully uses cruelness of events to hammer her into something we have yet to see)?

Thank you. Sansa went from spoiled, stupid brat with wrong loyalties to stupid brat without loyalties that does as she is told.
I'd weep for everything that has happened to her if she hadn't brought it all on herself.
Anyway, I'd be interested how Annie and Lesifore see women in Steven Erikson's books. Apart from one or two pathetic creatures they seem pretty strong...
But since I always made women wizards, monks, clerics or rogues(/warriors) in my parties without spending much thought on it, I might be wrong^^

 

[Annonchinil]

Just entered the Death God's Vault, MotB is full of win. The cast, the story, the setting are all so much better than the last few RPG's that I have played. Really I was hooked as soon as I read 'The City of Judgement'

 

[PennyAnte]

I just want to note that to some extent many of these problems of broad stereotypes, lack of character types, lack of depth etc. also apply to male characters. Just as the women are often healers or mages by virtue of the fact that they're women, you don't often find the males in roles other than fightery ones (with there being some exceptions, yes, such as Edwin in BG2 etc.) It's not as pronounced but it's still there. And many people already have noted Carth's emo ... it's just as bad as what's being chalked up as typical for poorly done female characters.

So, in other words, it's a problem of depth and range for characters in general, not just the female ones.

On a similar note, one of my complaints about Mass Effect is that it seemed each of the characters in the party had exactly two paragraphs of background and history each, and not much development during the course of the story (barring 1 quest each and "TEH CHOYCE" (tm) plus the prospect of shooting Wrex on Virmire). So it felt like their narrative values were very rapidly exhausted with a few clicks through the dialogue wheel, artificially stretched out by not being able to have all of the conversations in one go.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

Just to be clear that I'm not staking out a ludicrous position: PS:T and MOTB are my favorite RPGs in terms of characterization, Avellone is probably my favorite RPG writer, and I don't think Bioware's is as good as Obsidian's or Black Isle's.

I just think the level of analysis of the OP ("here are some superficial similarities between characters, hence Dragon Age's characters will suck") was pretty unimpressive.

A helpful test would be if the anti-Bioware faction could come up with a set of conditions that would disprove their position. For example, if Wynne is ultimately not scared of some childhood trauma, if Morrigan isn't a good person deep down, etc.

 

[MetalCraze]

I really enjoyed characters of MotB. Just like with PS:T and KotOR2 they were so "twisted" as in taking a stereotype (f.e. mage chick ) and twisting it into a pretty well-made and quite deep character that isn't a damsel-in-distress for once (Safiya).

Unfortunately your average teenager (target audience) won't understand the game character if it isn't one dimensional crap from generic high-school tv series.
People who like Bioware's crap also prefer NWN2 OC to MotB - think on that.

 

[Volourn]

"People who like Bioware's crap also prefer NWN2 OC to MotB - think on that."

Don't be a moron.


"really enjoyed characters of MotB. Just like with PS:T and KotOR2 they were so "twisted" as in taking a stereotype (f.e. mage chick )"

The fact you put the overrated KOTOR2 npcs at the level of the awesome MOTB and the good cast of PST (I say good not great 'cause nearly have PST npcs ar euseless crpa while the bother half are amongst the best ever).

There's nothing twisted about the KOTOR2 joianbles. Hell, Obsidian even brought their owns etreotype - the youg roguish hot gal who had/wants to have sex with daddy and daddy figures.


R00fles!

 

[MetalCraze]

Hell, Obsidian even brought their owns etreotype - the youg roguish hot gal who had/wants to have sex with daddy and daddy figures.

...And in KotOR2 that would be?
Oh wait do you mean Mira? Yes of course - except she kindly tells you to fuck off and is not "roguish".
However in Bioware's case it would be something like "oh you are such a strong man and I never had a dad - now I can find everything in you. Let's go have sex"

But my dear, little girls having sex with daddy figures is exactly the Bioware's thing. Unless you consider baby-sitting each predictable character as a top notch writing.

 

[Lesifoere]

Volourn's interpretation of Annah's and Pharod's relationship will never cease to amuse. I wonder why he fixates so on the whole pedophilia/daddy incest thing.

 

[MetalCraze]

A childhood trauma perhaps?

 

[Longshanks]

A gruff exterior, guarding a sensitive and damaged soul?
I see, Volourn's roleplaying a Bioware character! That would explain a lot.