Dragon Age will change the way BioWare writes party members!

[Vaarna_Aarne]

YAY!

 

[Drakron]

Props to Chrono Trigger back in the day for having brutish badass cavewoman who can't use magic but can fuck people up proper.

Well its just not Chrono Trigger, FF IX had General Beatrix.

Also in FF XII there was Fran, even if she is usually shown with a bow it does not mean she cannot use other weapons on par with other characters and back in FF X there was Lulu that despite being a Black Mage she had a much cooler head that Wakka.

But one thing I have to say is, as I dislike throwing the female cast into the "spellcaster" and "weak" territory I also dislike what amounts to a "man with tits".

 

[Gragt]

That's the difference between archetype and stereotypes. Everyone knows an archetype because it's a solid model that's deeply rooted in human sub-conscious; stereotypes are also well-known but that's because they're only a set of standard images. The main difference is depth.

Take for exemple Safiya from MotB, while being a female mage, the kind we discussed earlier, she's not a stereotype because she has more personnality. She's strong, not only in her craft but also emotionnaly, able of introspection but without constantly dwelling on her past, logical but not frigid and incapable of emotions.

So you're bound to see the same kind of characters over and over, especially in fantasy, but some will be archetypes, fleshed out models appealing to something inside everyone, and the rest will be paper-thin deep stereotypes.

Edit: Ayla rawks!

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Ah, it would be most appropriate to post Kingdom Come Wonder Woman scans right now.

 

[Gragt]

What about pics of Valeria and Conan's lovescene from the movie? Now that was hot!

 

[PennyAnte]

these strong women who studied all their life to master the dark art but after removing a few layers you will discover that under this strong façade they are ony little scared girls who need love to survive in this harsh world.

Either that, or they're man hating psycho bitches

pretty much every single one is deep down an emotionally vulnerable child who can neither function nor think without the aid of the male PC who's romancing her.

I don't think Mass Effect's Ash was like this, but I concede that she'd be an exception in that regard.

 

[Oeolycus]

First, think of a character you liked from a book who was deeper and more complex than Bioware's horrible repetitive paragons of generic hack bullshit. Then ask yourself if it would be possible to present all these character's aspects in a game without edging into novel-as-game territory and boring the crap out of half the gamers?

Jake Barnes, KOTOR - nutless coward (literally), difficult to motivate, requires constant reloading b/c of frequent deaths (the guy can't land a punch)

Bartleby, the Scrivener, BG1 - will never cast spells when asked, won't even move when ordered. Player often hears, "Gather your party before venturing forth" as a result.

 

[Erebus]

Sansa mention! RARE AND UNCANNY! /highfive! Fucking talk about character development. I went from hating her guts to really admiring her. Daenerys is more standard when you think about it, as is Arya (though I love her to death) but goddamn does Sansa impress me later on.

I rather like Sansa, although (or because) she's one unlucky girl (and I'm not sure that's over). But I like Daenerys more, because she puts her brain to good use (as opposed to, say, Catelyn... or Cersei). Maybe she'll get some character development if "A dance with dragons" is ever published.
I also really love Asha Greyjoy, who's smart, ambitious and ruthless.

"wooo I'm a girl so I'm a HEEEEEALER or a MAAAAGE" bullshit.

Female characters have a strong tendency to find themselves limited to non-warrior roles, although there has been some change (I suppose we should thank Xena).

While I enjoy originality, I don't think female characters necessarily have to break all stereotypes to be interesting. Fall-from-Grace is a healer with little offensive capacity and her personality (understanding, patient, compassionate) could be said to be stereotypically female, yet she's perhaps my favorite CRPG character because of her inner strength, intelligence and hidden thoughts.

Props to Chrono Trigger back in the day for having brutish badass cavewoman who can't use magic but can fuck people up proper.

What you say ?! No rubbish or Ayla, head go boom !

 

[Annonchinil]

But Fall-From-Grace is also a chaste succubus, and while there are archtype qualities her 'hook' is something unique. Which is something that I think is true for most characters in PS:T and MotB. On the other hand these DA characters just seem boring, there really is nothing unique or interesting about them. So far the more I find out about DA the less I like it, from the lame story set up to the poor artstyle.

 

[zenslinger]

Jake Barnes, KOTOR - nutless coward (literally), difficult to motivate, requires constant reloading b/c of frequent deaths (the guy can't land a punch)

Bartleby, the Scrivener, BG1 - will never cast spells when asked, won't even move when ordered. Player often hears, "Gather your party before venturing forth" as a result.

Nicely done.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Because this talk about strong female characters gives me a shameless opportunity:

 

[WanderingThrough2]

But Fall-From-Grace is also a chaste succubus, and while there are archtype qualities her 'hook' is something unique. Which is something that I think is true for most characters in PS:T and MotB. On the other hand these DA characters just seem boring, there really is nothing unique or interesting about them. So far the more I find out about DA the less I like it, from the lame story set up to the poor artstyle.

But all we know about the characters thus far is at a very high level of generality. At a very high level of generality, there are close similarities between Obsidian and Black Isle characters, too. If it turns out that on the detail-level, there's nothing more to these characters, you might be right. But I'm skeptical that will be the case.

Take for exemple Safiya from MotB, while being a female mage, the kind we discussed earlier, she's not a stereotype because she has more personnality. She's strong, not only in her craft but also emotionnaly, able of introspection but without constantly dwelling on her past, logical but not frigid and incapable of emotions.

I liked Safiya, but let's not forget that she's also romanceable in a totally implausible manner. (Possibly explicable because the underlying connection between her and the PC, but I don't know if that's particularly satisfactory.) She's also got the whole vulnerable/scared thing going on with the voices in her head.

That, uh, would be why.

Well, hence the disclosure.

I'm not sure the qualities you go on to list though -- a man who's lost a loved one and is a veteran of wars and as a result has emotional baggage -- is really a compelling criticism of Bioware. Isn't that a basic framework that's important and worth examining, even over and over again?

FFG is... not exactly naive, you know.

It's been years since I played the game, but my recollection was that she did have a naive, vulernable streak with respect to the PC, and went around blushing at everyone's inuendoes. But it's been a while.

Well yeah, go play more Bioware games.

[Problem isn't Bioware women not being warriors, it's that every Bioware woman is] deep down an emotionally vulnerable child who can neither function nor think without the aid of the male PC who's romancing her.

See, I guess I disagree with you on either point.

Bioware does the same thing for its male and female characters. Heck, you even note it above, writing with respect to the Carth model that he's "supposed to be a mature adult, but behaves much younger, being prone to blushing" and "is loaded with a lot of emotional baggage." You add that he makes "obvious attempts to garner sympathy" and makes embarassing "confessions of undying love."

Isn't that the very essence of being "deep down an emotionally vulnerable child who can neither function nor think without the aid of the ... PC"?

This is an endemic problem to the better Western RPGs, and to some extent PS:T may be the Typhoid Mary behind it (despite my love of the game). Party members exist as a mass of neuroses and vulnerabilities that need to be cured by the player through constant babying and pandering. Any time you don't do things their way, they pout and get angry at you. Every time you give them some token of affection, they become more and more fawning over you, and eventually spill their Dark Secret.

Maybe it's that Gann wasn't loved as a child and never had a stable home, so he needs you to give him a place where he fits in. Maybe it's Morte who's eaten up by guilt over his past misdeed. Or Annah with her burning, concealed passion for the PC. Or Carth with his grief issues. They're all big babies.

Outside of The Once and Future King, you don't see Arthurian heroes sitting around in emo grief circles, despite having a huge host of psychological flaws. You don't see Conan providing Freudian analysis to every friend and foe he encounters. The subliminated gay romances of LOTR don't require all the characters pandering to each other and working through their childhood letdowns.

When the Bioware/Obsidian crowd writes characters, you simply will never see a Conan figure or a Merlin or an Aragorn or a Robin Hood or whatever. The only kinds of characters you get are the paladin with a guilt complex, the succubus with hang-ups, the dwarf who wants to be a monk, and so on.

So (a) no, you can't find clean archetypes in Bioware games. And (b) the problems aren't gender specific. They all flow from the idea that party members are puzzles to be solved or challenges to be conquered. From a game standpoint, given the way they've constructed the dialogue minigame, that makes sense. But it results in a certain type of character that is usually passive, emotionally childish, and utterly dependent on the PC

 

[hiver]

Why is Sansa impressive?
She didnt do anything yet except stayed alive.

Her character that managed to pull any last bit of my nerves out of their sockets was more or less dragged along to the point when she isnt tearing my nerves so much i needed to curse out loud and knock out my butler every page or two.

While Arya and Deanyris both have different very strong motivations and mind of their own, Sansa doesnt, she is nothing but a pretty little bird prancing around. not to mention she should take a brick and beat herself to death if she ever manages to understand what she has done and how bloody stupid she was.

She certainly needs to achieve something yet, or anything for that matter to be impressive or worthwhile.

Why the hell are two intelligent women considering her as interesting in this kind of thread when she is a classic stupid bimbo character. (though Martin masterfully uses cruelness of events to hammer her into something we have yet to see)?

 

[Gragt]

I liked Safiya, but let's not forget that she's also romanceable in a totally implausible manner. (Possibly explicable because the underlying connection between her and the PC, but I don't know if that's particularly satisfactory.) She's also got the whole vulnerable/scared thing going on with the voices in her head.

As you say there is the connection between the two characters, it might be that. Then again it might not be that, I guess love can start in different ways. Point is she's never pathetic and while she might have that vulnerable/scared thing, she never lets herself be dominated by it. Heroes have always flaws to overcome, their greatness depends on how they deal with it.

t's been years since I played the game, but my recollection was that she did have a naive, vulernable streak with respect to the PC, and went around blushing at everyone's inuendoes. But it's been a while.

I found it ambiguous, after all she is a succubus, a temptress of men. She might have left the ways of her nature behind but she still is one. It might also be that she is acting that way to hide what she really is. She might be appear naïve sometimes but at others she shows some great insight on the nature of the multiverse.

Party members exist as a mass of neuroses and vulnerabilities that need to be cured by the player through constant babying and pandering. Any time you don't do things their way, they pout and get angry at you. Every time you give them some token of affection, they become more and more fawning over you, and eventually spill their Dark Secret.

Torment is a bit special, The Nameless One due to his nature is a lodestone for tormented souls. Just like we can dig into TNO's past lives, it seems fitting we can dig into those of the followers, especially since what we find makes them thicker instead of shallow. It's all part of the theme of the game, the name is a bit of a clue. Yes, I feel that it's been overdone after Torment but the truth is that I do not find it irritating in Obsidian games because their characters are very interesting to explore, well except most of the NWN2 OC cast, it probably has to do with the way they deal with their past; Carth throwing it in your face but telling you he doesn't want to talk about it is symptomatic.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

The crux of the problem in my opinion is intersection of the way Obsidian has handled the influence mechanic and the fact that characters are always their own secrets-keeper. In other words, the only way to find out about the abused childhood Toughie McWarrior went through is to relentlessly pander to him. There's no other way to gain influence over him (for example by fear or by saving him from monsters when he's near death) and there's no other way to find out about him.

In reality, however, much of what we learn about other people is through second-hand sources and friendships seldom develop because of repeated crises that demonstrate a shared ideology. It's true that one way to build a relationship with someone is to pander to them, but it's not the only way. In any event, even those relationships usually involve some measure of reciprocity, whereas Obsidian games rarely feature moments where you can make your companions do something for you.

You wind up with a completely ridiculous situation where a demigod in training (in MOTB, for example) is a groveling servant to the mediocrity he busts out of the hoosegow, the fading bear-king whom he crushes in battle and spares, the lovelorn magess who's never had a friend, and the fallen angel in need of a patron. It makes no sense.

 

[Erebus]

FFG is... not exactly naive, you know.

It's been years since I played the game, but my recollection was that she did have a naive, vulernable streak with respect to the PC, and went around blushing at everyone's inuendoes. But it's been a while.

I haven't played PS:T this year but I can't say I remember anything like that. FFG is probably the most mature character of the game and she is very much in control of her own emotions. Her feelings for the PC are unknown (she declines to clarify them if asked) and she sometimes seems more of a mother figure than a potential love interest.

 

[Talonfire]

[
That, uh, would be why. Try playing Mass Effect and Jade Empire. Compare Carth with Kaidan with Sky with Valen Shadowbreath. Compare Bastila with Aribeth. Compare Wrex with Canderous.

I also thought that Master Li from Jade Empire was disturbingly similar to Darth Revan from KotOR.

 

[Gragt]

WanderingThrough2: That's a good point though I disagree with MotB, it might be that I missed other conversation paths but the way I played it, and it means it's possible, I could develop influence with characters without having to lick their boots all the time (unless, again NWN2 OC), it felt a lot more like developing a full relationship with them. These were mostly dependent on skill checks, like being able to "flirt" with Gann if you were charismatic or argue with Safiya or Okku; at a few occasions I could disagree with these two but make my point in such a way that they would not agree with me but value my opinion, granting me influence. I have to say I deeply liked that feature.

At other moments I disagreed with them on some points they were very emotionnaly attached to, like the Crusade for Kaelyn, the Coven for Gann, etc. Yet there are so many ways to gain influence, you can "recover the loss" later while keeping in character unless it is very serious.

 

[hiver]

You just need to let her talk to that demon in a store... (fortgot her name) Vryschka or something.

That will quickly cure you of seeing Fall from Grace (FFG sounds like some graphic card or doom wepon) as sensitive or blushing at inuendo.

I thought it was very clear that her "playing" like that was clearly a sort of self joke she liked to perform for her own amusement, most often.

And her "chat" with Ravel is pretty revealing of a few steel blades under that smile even if you didnt talk to her much before.

 

[hiver]

-edit

 

[Annonchinil]

A chaste succubus is a generalization of her character and yet it is something unique. Not only that but she fit in with the 'torment' and 'what can change the nature of a man?' aspects of the story so well. I mean she is the eptimone of going against her nature as a succubus and yet you are never really sure if she really is succefull, even her intellectual pursuits have sexual innuendo such as 'brothel' and 'lust'. Most of the other characters in Torment also have unique twists to them, like how TNO is an amnesiac but because he is also an immortal.

On the other hand the DA profiles just don't have any interesting hooks to their characters. Although if we compare most games to Torment they will seem rather shallow. I mean PS:T was one of the very few games that had a central theme and maybe a message that drove the story and was presented through the setting and the characters. The only other game that I played that came close to trying to do that was MGS3: Snake Eater. Since no other Bioware game had that why would DA? And why would a generic set up lead to an original story? All the games that I played that were original in story/setting/characters seemed original from the previews, why is DA the exception? Looking at the story or the characters whats their that can be considered interesting? So far the conflicts seem to be:

-Naive King
-Mistrust of the Grey Wardens
-Chantry vs. Mages
-One nation is mistrustfull of another that it most likely needs

None of which I find as interesting as anything from the prologues of MotB (City of Judgement) or PS:T (Talking to Morte/Dhall/Deinorra).

 

[FalloutBR]

Too bad Bioware somehow decided never to reuse Tiax... Maybe he rules Bioware now and wants to keep a low profile...

 

[WanderingThrough2]

On the other hand the DA profiles just don't have any interesting hooks to their characters. Although if we compare most games to Torment they will seem rather shallow.

I think a part of that is just because in an alien setting, the characters seem more distinctive. My recollection is that Chris Avellone, in either genuine or false modesty, gave some breakdown of the characters (FFG was the Madonna-Whore, Dak'kon the Ronin Samurai, etc.) that translated them into worn out types we've seen over and over again. But the ability to have them be some bug-nuts alien race helps make them seem fresh.

That said, PS:T was marvelously written and conceived. Holding it and MOTB up as a minimal standard (i.e., if Bioware cannot meet it, it fails) is a little unfair. It's also a little unfair to judge Dragon Age before you see more of it. Of course, there's nothing else to judge it on, but I do think there will be more to it than it seems at first blush. But then, again, I actually quite enjoyed KOTOR, which I know makes me a minority here. (I quit Jade Empire about fifteen minutes in, on the other hand.)

 

[Annonchinil]

I am sure that MCA did not refer to those characters that way, even if he did stereotype them. Either way I provided the ways in which the generalizations of the characters are unique even though they still have archtype qualities. Some of your statements like using MCA's 'quote' about Fall-From-Grace being a 'Madonna-Whore' and a few posts before them reffering to her; "but my recollection was that she did have a naive, vulernable streak with respect to the PC, and went around blushing at everyone's inuendoes" seem contradictory to me as they represent either two different personalities or a character that has more depth.

The idea that the unique races of Planescape helped the generalization of characters seem more unique than the archtype really is is true for some, but not all of them. And again I fail to see the 'give Bioware a chance' argument, as I mentioned before from my experience most games with unique stories/characters/setting manages to convey that in the previews, if you could site some exceptions than I would be more inclined to believe you.

 

[Volourn]

"Quote:
[Problem isn't Bioware women not being warriors, it's that every Bioware woman is] deep down an emotionally vulnerable child who can neither function nor think without the aid of the male PC who's romancing her."

Complete and utter fuckin' bullshit.