Fuck Relic and DoW2

[kingcomrade]

What, like that's one of their design goals on the website? "Use worse AI than CoH"

 

[Annonchinil]

This time squads will retreat when they are outnumbered and use special abilities on their own. The thing is that the player should be doing thos things, not the AI.

 

[thesheeep]

This time squads will retreat when they are outnumbered and use special abilities on their own. The thing is that the player should be doing thos things, not the AI.

Erh, no?
Nobody can be everywhere at the same time. And clicking (or tabbing) through every unit, clicking the special ability buttons and aiming at the right target, all in some seconds, would be the case of being everywhere. It's just annoying and one of the few things I seriously disliked about DoW.
It should be optional, like... right-clicking on the ability allows the AI to use it (like it is in WC3 with some abilities).
Of course, if it was like that, the AI shouldn't just throw the mighty grenade when there is only a slave crossing them

 

[muds_animal_friend]

Micromanagement is the essence of real-time tactics games. What you'll actually get with AI squad automation is Dungeon Siege III.

 

[thesheeep]

In tactic games, yeah, perhaps.

But DoW is a strategy game. And strategy means that your efforts should be on a much larger scale, not having to do every little bit yourself and worry about stuff like your soldiers throwing a grenade or not.

Also, micromanagement just comes down to fast-clicking. There is no strategy - or even tactic - involved in the ability to click/push buttons fast.
Why do you think Asians are dominating in most RTS games? Because they are superior strategists? Nope..


I'm just talking about DoW2 multiplayer, though. Its campaign is supposed to be more on a tactical level, so the micromanagement should be more important there.

 

[Fez]

Micromanagement is the bane of these games. The worst thing to creep into them, partly for the reasons thesheeep mentioned.

 

[Lyric Suite]

But DoW is a strategy game.

They only reason they call them strategy games is that tactical games just doesn't have the same ring to it. There's little strategy in your average RTS and whatever it's there is often meta gaming, which makes things worst.

 

[thesheeep]

But DoW is a strategy game.

They only reason they call them strategy games is that tactical games just doesn't have the same ring to it. There's little strategy in your average RTS and whatever it's there is often meta gaming, which makes things worst.

Metagaming is in every game, its complicated, and nobody really knows what it is
But I agree that most RTS games really only have very light strategic parts in them and there is till room for one real strategy game...
But there still is that difference between tactic games and RTS games.

 

[MetalCraze]

The only strategic move DoW has is: build moar units - attack enemy.

 

[Annonchinil]

I disagree, the AI in CoH maybe mistakes rather often making it harder to manage them. If I click to my infantry unit to attack a vechile I don't know if they will give up for no reason at all or chase it into the enemies base. Predictability is an important aspect of unit management.

 

[thesheeep]

Yeah, okay, but that only means that the AI in that game sucks, not that the idea behind the system is f*cked up.

blah

Aha.

 

[Oarfish]

Micromanagement is the essence of real-time tactics games.

Close combat had very little micromanagement yet still managed to be a shedload more tactical than any basebuildin' and stuff mining twitchy RTS. Brutal punishment for mistakes + real line of sight based fog of war and semi realistic unit capabilities made it a far better experience than most. Coh was a step in the right direction, but they should have ditched the building all together.

I would kill my grandmother for a CC clone with Coh physics and procedural map / objective generation. It was far too easy to beat maps once you knew where the bad guys probably were, even with a dynamic campaign changing the oob.

 

[Destroid]

I think it would be nice if instead of healthbars they applied penetration (like CoH tanks) to all units in DoW2, since most of them are wearing an awful lot of armor. CoH basically had this with the low hit% and high damage of weapons.

I am also in the less micro camp, ever since I played dark reign with its awesome ai scripts for units.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

They should just have more of the TT rules in use.

 

[kingcomrade]

They should just have more of the TT rules in use.

People should not say things like this. There's no reason for it. Dawn of War is not a turn based tabletop miniatures game.

 

[muds_animal_friend]

In tactic games, yeah, perhaps.

But DoW is a strategy game. And strategy means that your efforts should be on a much larger scale, not having to do every little bit yourself and worry about stuff like your soldiers throwing a grenade or not.

I agree, but I was under the impression the DoW 2 was an RTT (no base building, control of only a few squads) rather than an RTS like DoW 1. All the RTTs I'm familiar with would be horribly boring without micromanagement: the Sudden Strike series, the Myth series, those Monte Cristo WW II games... In constrast I hate micromanagement in RTS games, which is why I never play the Protoss in Starcraft - too many special abilities to babysit.

 

[thesheeep]

Your impression was right, for the single player campaign.

In multiplayer, everything will be like it was in DoW (with some adjustments, I hope). And, afaik, there will be some special MP modes that are similar to the SP campaign (so no base building).

 

[muds_animal_friend]

Really? Sounds like a "square peg round hole" situation. There's a danger they'll produce either a MP RTS with overly complicated unit control or a dumbed-down SP RTT. Still, at least it features Tyranids...

 

[thesheeep]

Yeah, it sounds a bit like 2 games in one.
Maxis tried with 5 games and failed, let's hope Relic manages with 2

 

[deshields538]

I really hope that this just isn't as worse as it sounds.

The worst case scenario is that Relic are trying to stop the modding of the campaign because they want to charge you for extra DLC like more campaigns. Campaigns which modders could perhaps design just as well and for free.

And regardless, not supporting the modding community and taking the attitude of "We don't want you messing up our precious campaign" is BS and just plain stupid.

 

[Trash]

What a shitload of drama about nothing. Relic has a rather great trackrecord with stuff like COH and Homeworld. I'm more than willing to give these people the benefit of the doubt, especially since almost everything I heard so far sounds awesome. Optional missions, upgrading squads throughout the campaign, different worlds to fight upon, little micromanagement, squad based combat. It all seems like it could be a winner.

 

[deshields538]

I think that's the reason for the over reaction. People are getting pissed because this isn't something Relic would say and they have given epic support to CoH (Soulstorm on the other hand...).

Anyway, like I said, I really hope that this was just a poor choice of words on Relic's part or just a misinterpretation by us fans.

 

[Lothers]

Is campaign in DOW, WA, DC, SS moddable? I don't think so...

 

[deshields538]

You can definitely mod the campaigns to a certain extent but this is DoW 2 we are talking about. Its engine is an updated version of the Essence engine from CoH.

 

[Destroid]

Relic didn't make soulstorm.