Is Bethesda inclined?

[Deleted member 11480]

I already changed my opinion on a few things after reading your comments

This is the most impressive thing I've read in my life

 

[DosBuster]

Hines makes me hate Bethesda even more than their games warrant, but when I calm down and think about it, the difference between modern Bethesda and modern Bioware is that Toddler seems like someone who - if he wasn't a professional game lead designer - wouldn't be all that different to the Codexers, with a clear obsession about one old-school game he still considers the greatest ever made (Ultima VII), and a clear vision of what is quite definitely a game (and I'd still argue, definitely an rpg, albeit a simplified action one). He just (1) likes money, lots of money, and (2) doesn't have the talent to achieve the former while maintaining any sort of monocle elements. Bioware, with a few notable exceptions, seems like they're embarassed that they're even in the game-making business, and would ditch it in a second if someone gave them all a contract to work on the next Uwe Boll film.

Another thing about Todd is that he's well known for saying, "Can we add this. We're adding this.", regardless of schedule. Which didn't really work well on Skyrim since that had a fixed date.

 

[DragoFireheart]

I think Morrowind was a fluke.

 

[DosBuster]

I think Morrowind was a fluke.

Probably because if Morrowind had failed ZeniMax and Bethesda would've gone bankrupt.

 

[Hirato]

Probably because if Morrowind had failed ZeniMax and Bethesda would've gone bankrupt.

Then Fallout's chastity would've been safe!

 

[imweasel]

Probably because if Morrowind had failed ZeniMax and Bethesda would've gone bankrupt.

We need to crowdfund a time machine and correct history.

 

[DragoFireheart]

I wish Skyrim would inspire me enough to get emotional about it.

Oblivion pissed me off for being so shitty, but all I got was a meh. Only Morrowind got me excited to explore.

 

[Infinitron]

Heh, be careful what you wish for. In a decade, Bethesda has developed one Fallout game. Another company might have produced reams of shovelware by now.

 

[Sykar]

Heh, be careful what you wish for. In a decade, Bethesda has developed one Fallout game. Another company might have produced reams of shovelware by now.

Would have far less to rage about then on Codex though.

 

[Machocruz]

You know, Skyrim is a greater game than Morrowind, no doubt. I'm not talking about RPGs, obviously - all games in the TES series are horrendous as RPGs, bordering on the intolerable. Morrowind was the first one that I could play, albeit with some suffering. Oblivion was even worse... That is, until I installed multiple MODs and, in fact, it has become a much more enjoyable experience. Then came Skyrim, further enhancing the gender of hiking simulators.

And that's all they are: hiking simulators, nothing more. The RPG 'systems' are terrible, the combat sucks, the plot is a disgrace.

I disagree. For example, compare the Nerano manor quest to any similar tier quest in either Oblivion or Skyrim. Now maybe I just didn't play the latter two long enough, but let's look at the layers we are dealing with in that quest in terms of solutions

Get the key from Nerano:
-pickpocket
-knock him out and take it (unpatched)
-kill him and take it

Get the key from his servant:
-Persuade/Bribe
-Pickpocket
-Attack, kill, and take it, enraging the whole Council Club and leading to a battle where I hole up in a room and kill guys as the bunch up at the door. Fun times.
-Goad him into attacking you, kill and take it.

Killing his servant ties into another quest, so now we have Fallout-esque cross quest design. And this isn't even a major story quest. That's superior, or at least more interesting, CRPG design. I can't remember anything like this in Skyrim. And how about the several detective quests you get in MW, like solving the murder in Vivec. No arrows pointing you to the house that the person who did it lives in.

Besides that, the devil of the differences between MW and Skyrim is in the details, which some of you are overlooking.

-How was your thieving experience in Skyrim? Were you satisfied with the contents of high security chests, with your bowls, brandy, and 50 coins? I was in MW because I usually found something that justified the security level. because good items weren't level gimped or relegated to quest rewards. How about robbing merchants? Did you like how items were hidden away in invisible chests in OB and Skyrim? Me, I prefer a merchant having all his wares, no matter how valuable, on the premises, with a guard around. It's not only more satisfying for a thief class and lets me do the thing I signed up for, it renders the world more believable. They made the actual sneaking better in OB and Skyrim, but forgot to give you anything interesting to do with it.

-Skyrim is good for exploration/hiking you say? If your definition of exploration is walking around and looking at 3D models, I guess so. I call that sight-seeing, tourism, the same thing every milquetoast yuppie does in real life and comes home with a Hawaiian shirt....from the airport. My definition of exploration is more like what Indiana Jones does - exploring to find something interesting or useful, like a sunken city or a powerful unique item. I also like being able to stumble upon an orc fortress and get a mudhole stomped in my ass at level 5. Skyrim had a little bit of this last thing, so kudos I guess..

-Spells. Morrowind has levitation, teleportation, and spellmaking. Nuff said.

-Back to items again: In 60+ hours of Skyrim, divided among two different characters and two different routes through the game, I didn't find one piece of impressive, unique loot. In Morrowind you can find a good sword in the first major town. Maybe you guys like the developer to babysit you so you don't "break" the game (which wouldn't be a problem if they had high level enemies in the world from the beginning), but I like to make those choices myself. And there is just more of everything in MW, and these games are about breadth over depth.

-Environmental variety. Do I have to explain this to anyone who considers themselves a proper explorefag or expert on all things ES? Morrowind wins.

-Guild advancement requirements. Brought up on the previous page. Bolsters class differentiation and skill choices, heightens verisimilitude/logical operation of world.

-Verticality. Loved sneaking in through the top floor of places in MW. And Levitation, again. Don't remember if Skryim's shops and homes had accessible second floors, but if I can remember them in a 15 year old game...

Now, the perk system in Skyrim is a fine idea, but a lot of the actual perks are uninteresting. That's the problem with Bethesda: when it comes to actual systems, they think small, mundane. Mods like Requiem make the perk tree more useful

Combat is ok for what it is. Can't really complain about the mechanics themselves considering the rest of this series. Doesn't feel near as dangerous as Daggerfall though.

Dungeons: In practice, I wasn't really upset by the linearity, but they should have sprinkled in at least 3 labyrinthine mega-dungeons. Perhaps they did and my path never took me to one?

If Skyrim had brought back the elements I listed in addition to the solid foundation it has, I would be singing its praises with the rest of the proles; after all, I thought that Martigan's Monster Mod alone was enough to make Oblivion into something interesing, not to mention some of the overhaul mods that really added substance. There are really no excuses to go backwards on things that would enhance exploration, skullduggery, immersion. I can't believe they can't find a way to bring back flight magic, which is something that few RPGs offer and is one of the most interesting and empowering things they can offer. Even primitive ass M&M6 had it. They insist on doing towns the way they do, and it just makes me smh. And the way they do items is just pathetic. They had it right MW, the right balance of expectation, anticipation, and reward. You weren't always going to find something good if you went the extra step, but there was a great enough chance that you would that made it worth doing. It's the mystery box feeling that no other game has done as well since, outside of maybe your first playthrough of a Souls game.

So no, Skyirm is not "Morrowind but better."

 

[DragoFireheart]

-How was your thieving experience in Skyrim?

-Spells.

These two points along prove how utterly underwhelming Skyrim is, crippled by design flaws such as heavy use of level scaling and other inane choices. It makes the world feel much more empty and pointless.

 

[Lemming42]

incline because there are no other games like that

But it's true, there aren't any other games like the ones Bethesda makes. If there were, Bethesda would probably be blown out of the water pretty quickly (see New Vegas).

incline because reasons

What were you expecting

mechanically every new game from TES gets worse.
from quest design standpoint every TES gets worse with each new installment
world size it grows with absolutely nothing in value beside pretty landscapes full of potato caves

But people don't play Skyrim for astonishing RPG mechanics or intricate quest design.

 

[Machocruz]

But it's true, there aren't any other games like the ones Bethesda makes. If there were, Bethesda would probably be blown out of the water pretty quickly (see New Vegas).



.

I have to agree with this, and it's been said many times before. They have no competition when it comes to the total package of production, scale, content, freedom, etc.

Although I don't think Bethesda would be blown out of the water. They have a cult now. The cult is so fervent that they will praise FO3 over the superior New Vegas because Bethesda did the actual work on the former. If you mind-wiped them all of the developer information and re-branded each game, they would praise NV over 3. Supposedly NV sold more, but that can be chalked up to the success of 3. The journos certainly didn't help NV with their constant complaining about bugs (none of which I encountered in 80 hours of play on PC/STEAM).

When you have a bunch of people that believe NV is just an expansion pack of 3 - regardless of the new story, characters, setting, enemies, weapons, factions, quests, crafting, mechanical improvements- you have a blind fan cult that won't even consider that there are better alternatives or ways of doing things. And the Bethesda cult is strange strong indeed. Just one of its members was enough to veto the majority GoTY vote at GiantBomb.

 

[Bleed the Man]

If there's a word to define Bethesda since 2006, that word is DECLINE. They basically lead the way of dumbing down things since Oblivion was a huge succes. Morrowind cut down several things from Daggerfall in order to get a much more cohesive and engaging experience (if they managed it, it's up to you), while with Oblivion all the design decisions were made to appeal to the mass media crowd and didn't had any gameplay reason to simplify things or cut things out. The results with Oblivion are obvious to anyone that has a bit of experience with RPGs, or some level of minimal understanding of game design. It's bloody awful, and showed utter incompetence at their attempt at dumbing down/make the game more accesible.
Skyrim showed the same tendency, just not with that level at incompetence. It tries to be as save and comfortable as possible, and I think it manage to do that. Of course, it's not good by any means (for me at least), it just showed some more ability to appeal to a wider audience, when with Oblivion it seemed like they didn't know what the fuck they were doing.

Right now, The Elder Scrolls are like the Assassin's Creed of RPGs. Nice and comfortable, and with lots of stuff to fuck around, but (intentionally) completely shallow mechanic wise, and design wise.

 

[Machocruz]

I don't think Skyrim is a poor game. Disappointing in terms of what we know can be done, but if I had never been spoiled by Morrowind and Daggerfall, I probably would be impressed.

Vanilla Oblivion is just dog anus. It's one of the worst RPGs ever made that wasn't made for less than 100 bucks. And I say this having had a Sega Master System, that's how bad the game is. Skyrim may be dumbed down, but OB is just dumb. Every inch of the game oozes stupidity. Even the mr. potatohead characters look like they have mental deficiency. I think they use Oblivion now to explain why argumentum ad populum is fallacy. If Skyrim commits some crimes, Oblivion commits atrocities. It's pretty much the poster child for Decline. It's the point from which I knew the gaming media was full of shills, hucksters, cheerleaders, and dilettantes. Even now, when someone speaks favorably of Oblivion I leave the room or shut down my computer, which ever reactions suits the occasion. The former because I don't want to hurt anyone, the latter because I can't. Fuck that all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

 

[Sykar]

I don't think Skyrim is a poor game. Disappointing in terms of what we know can be done, but if I had never been spoiled by Morrowind and Daggerfall, I probably would be impressed.

Vanilla Oblivion is just dog anus. It's one of the worst RPGs ever made that wasn't made for less than 100 bucks. And I say this having had a Sega Master System, that's how bad the game is. Skyrim may be dumbed down, but OB is just dumb. Every inch of the game oozes stupidity. Even the mr. potatohead characters look like they have mental deficiency. I think they use Oblivion now to explain why argumentum ad populum is fallacy. If Skyrim commits some crimes, Oblivion commits atrocities. It's pretty much the poster child for Decline. It's the point from which I knew the gaming media was full of shills, hucksters, cheerleaders, and dilettantes. Even now, when someone speaks favorably of Oblivion I leave the room or shut down my computer, which ever reactions suits the occasion. The former because I don't want to hurt anyone, the latter because I can't. Fuck that all singing, all dancing crap of the world.

I still remember release day, all fired up, hoping I'll see a next generation Morrowind/Daggerfall with most weaknesses at least somewhat if not completely addressed and the strengths further enhanced. Never have I uninstalled a "AAA" game as quickly as that game which I also bought for a full 50 euros. Couldn't bear the shit further than Kvatch. I tried several times months and years later and wasn't even subject to the worst atrocity of the retarded level scaling much but it just is so god damn awful. I think the farthest I ever got was the big Imperial City which bored me to tears.

 

[King Crispy]

By Codex' definition, no Bethesda isn't inclined. And I say that as probably the top vote-getter in any poll here that asks who Codex' greatest Bethesda fanboy would be, deserved or not.

I agree that Skyrim is better, but that's like saying that American cars are actually good now. Getting there, but still a long way to go in order to be considered among the best.

Skyrim offers some nice things. It's a truly open-world, free-roaming game. Occasionally the combat can be amusing. Once in a while you find an area that's actually interesting to explore. Overall, it's still just a huge meh; the wild popularity of all its improvement mods (almost required according to most opinions that I've ever read) such as Requiem bear that out.

But it's still not Bethesda's best. I won't even compare it again to Morrowind since that gets mentioned every time. I'd rather compare it to Daggerfall, for that's one game, while not having aged well at all, that still stands up as the zenith for Bethesda's ability to have once created a truly impressive gameworld in my mind. Where Skyrim presents you with a large world, Daggerfall presents you with a staggeringly huge one, even if most of it's procedurally generated and empty. Where Skyrim sends you on a main quest to save the world, Daggerfall sends you into the wild -- with a much grander task to perform which is told in so much more a superior way. Where Skyrim attempts to impress you with its 'visceral', albeit quite limited combat, Daggerfall just gives you the keys and says go make what you want. Sure, it was quite easy to almost break the game based on its SpellMaker and other crafting options, that's not the point. The point is that you were given the freedom to go ahead and see if that crazy sword you just made really was good enough to get you through that multi-level, genuinely deadly, maddening dungeon to discover what lie at its heart. Skyrim plays it way too safe and barely rewards any ingenuity at all. Again, you'd need a radical mod like Requiem to introduce the inherent difficulty needed to offer any real challenge and thus satisfaction.

I hope the next TES, if there will ever be another, really goes back to its Daggerfall roots. I'm tired of being told what to do. I'm tired of being the Super Ultra Hero. I just want to be some schmuck adventurer who just might stand a chance of becoming one if he plays his cards right, really explores thoroughly, really puts the effort in, and gets really lucky at times.

Only then will I have considered Bethesda to have inclined. And I'm inclined to believe that just won't happen.

 

[Machocruz]

Daggerfall is the most immersive to me. Maybe it's 'theater of the mind' stuff due to the primitive display. It's an even bigger mystery box than Morrowind, although I think MW has more tangible secrets tucked away in its world. I don't know what the hell to expect further down the road in DF, despite it's limitations, and that's a feeling I want out of any world simulation.

It's not asking alot. With a few tweaks, Oscuro's Overhal Mod gave the otherwise execrable Oblivion this mystery quality. You don't know what the hell is going to be in the next dungeon. Could be some low level bandits, or a tribe of Amazons, spell throwing Gargoyles, powerful ghost warriors, or a battle between different factions. Throw some worthwhile chest content and hand placed magic items, and voila, dungeon crawling and thieving improve tenfold.

 

[King Crispy]

Was a big fan of OOO as well.

 

[Snorkack]

This thread actually made me reinstall Skyrim and play for a few minutes. Boy, this game could have been soooo goooooooddd! Easily could have been one of the best i've ever played. But there are so many stupid little design decisions hiding in every corner, so many abandoned virtues its precursors already got right. All these minor flaws add up to the fact that every single thing you encounter will be the most generic and boring shit ever. I was immediately reminded why I could never bring up the willpower to finish it.
It is like the retarded child you gave birth to. You still love it and all, but you feel deeply embarrased and disappointed, because it carries the same potent genes as its brothers, but it will never become as strong and mature as them, no matter how much medical treatment it receives. It just looks at you with a dim-witted smile, cross-eyed, drooling, and babbling "FUS RO DA". (Still better than the despised adopted mutant child you hide in your attic and feed with buckets full of fish heads, that is TESO).

This post actually just made me reinstall Morrowind again.

 

[Sykar]

This thread actually made me reinstall Skyrim and play for a few minutes. Boy, this game could have been soooo goooooooddd! Easily could have been one of the best i've ever played. But there are so many stupid little design decisions hiding in every corner, so many abandoned virtues its precursors already got right. All these minor flaws add up to the fact that every single thing you encounter will be the most generic and boring shit ever. I was immediately reminded why I never had the willpower to finish it. It is like the retarded child you gave birth to. You still love it and all, but you feel deeply embarrased and disappointed, because it carries the same potent genes as its brothers, it will never become as strong and mature as them, no matter how much medical treatment it receives. It just looks at you with a dim-witted smile, cross-eyed, drooling, and babbling "FUS RO DA". (Still better than the despised adopted mutant child you hide in your attic and feed with buckets full of fish heads, that is TESO).
This post actually made me reinstall Morrowind again.

For me it's the insufferable hand holding and the plain as boring shit chosen one storyline. Skyrim treats it's players like they are fucking retards who are too stupid to read more than 1 sentence in an hour. Albeit that would explain all those players screaming for the location of Mankrik's wife in the Barren's chat in WoW.

 

[mastroego]

Since someone commented on it, I'll explain better the point about mods.

First, moddability is not "granted" for games in general. Not all games are easily moddable, actually we've also seen companies *prohibit* mods in the past. Bethesda has never been that short-sighted in this regard.

Second, moddability is totally in line with the basic appeal of the game.
The game is a large sandbox virtual world (warts and all), where people who are into this kind of thing have fun doing whatever.
On a meta-game level though, it's also a sandbox program gamers and modders like to mess with freely.

So yes, mods do enter the equation, because they're part of the fun (to some), and the philosophy of the game is such that it attracts a very large number of modders, sometimes for amazing collaborative efforts.
In the end, many gamers have bought a mediocre (admittedly) game but also a service of sorts that they may enjoy.
In this sense, I think simply rating the Vanilla game might be misleading, since the Vanilla experience literally isn't everything it has to offer - while I will concede that Vanilla Skyrim was really derpy in a lot of aspects (still it connected with a lot of people from the start, let's not forget that).
I respect Bethesda: as I said before and as it's been said in this thread, they do their own thing in an uncompromising way (mostly) and that has value.
You won't get tons of quality stuff from them, but you'll get most of what you can reasonably expect, and you won't get lied to.
Compare this to the pure scam that was DA2, for instance.

 

[Sykar]

Since someone commented on it, I'll explain better the point about mods.

First, moddability is not "granted" for games in general. Not all games are easily moddable, actually we've also seen companies *prohibit* mods in the past. Bethesda has never been that short-sighted in this regard.

Second, moddability is totally in line with the basic appeal of the game.
The game is a large sandbox virtual world (warts and all), where people who are into this kind of thing have fun doing whatever.
On a meta-game level though, it's also a sandbox program gamers and modders like to mess with freely.

So yes, mods do enter the equation, because they're part of the fun (to some), and the philosophy of the game is such that it attracts a very large number of modders, sometimes for amazing collaborative efforts.
In the end, many gamers have bought a mediocre (admittedly) game but also a service of sorts that they may enjoy.
In this sense, I think simply rating the Vanilla game might be misleading, since the Vanilla experience literally isn't everything it has to offer - while I will concede that Vanilla Skyrim was really derpy in a lot of aspects (still it connected with a lot of people from the start, let's not forget that).
I respect Bethesda: as I said before and as it's been said in this thread, they do their own thing in an uncompromising way (mostly) and that has value.
You won't get tons of quality stuff from them, but you'll get most of what you can reasonably expect, and you won't get lied to.
Compare this to the pure scam that was DA2, for instance.

Modability doesn't excuse all the shit they've done in terms of dumbing down and doesn't excuse the excruciatingly bad to mediocre writing. Worse even that some things hard to impossible to reinstate like attributes.

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

How could it be incline? Everything in their games is either randomly generated or dumbed down. Or just plain horrible design.

If I could ever meet Todd Howard, I would keep punching him until he says at least 3 sentences about Bethesda games that are not lies.

 

[Hirato]

you won't get lied to.