Is Bethesda inclined?

[Ellef]

I still remember release day, all fired up, hoping I'll see a next generation Morrowind/Daggerfall with most weaknesses at least somewhat if not completely addressed and the strengths further enhanced. Never have I uninstalled a "AAA" game as quickly as that game which I also bought for a full 50 euros. Couldn't bear the shit further than Kvatch. I tried several times months and years later and wasn't even subject to the worst atrocity of the retarded level scaling much but it just is so god damn awful. I think the farthest I ever got was the big Imperial City which bored me to tears.

Yep, Skyrim was my last game before pure cynicism took over. Still spent about 40 hours trying to convince myself it was good.

 

[Drowed]

[A lot of text.]

If I were to answer your every point, the answer would be immense. But your text focuses primarily on one point: the supposed qualities of Morrowind as an RPG: things like the quests, spells, guilds, items... And in fact, in all these things, Morrowind is better than Skyrim, it's a better RPG. I never denied that. But what I said is that it's a worse *game*. As I said, I still think that Morrowind (and all the TES series) is horrible as an RPGs. To say that one of the games is less horrible than the other doesn't seem like a great merit: dialogues in Morrowind are a bore with that "wiki-model" where all NPCs are basically automated lore dump systems. Not to mention that the combat is really atrocious (I think it's one of the worst combat gameplay that I ever played), I don't know how someone can tolerate it. At least in Skyrim the combat usually ends quickly enough so I can go around doing whatever I was doing. I couldn't have fun with any of the mechanics of Morrowind, and couldn't even get interested in the story - the little that held me to the game was the exploration which, now, looking back, was no big deal after all. But then, I had no other references and other games of "open world" as there are today to compare to.

And, yes, YES. My definition of exploration is somewhat closer to "walking around and looking at 3D models". Powerful items... Are RPG elements. I can't seem to care about things like that since I think these games are horrible as RPGs. Why would I care about some powerfull item if I want to avoid combat as much as possible? The only thing that Morrowind was indeed better is the verticality, but since the game was ugly as hell and with a short viewing distance, I didn't feel rewarded enough even when reached somewhere high. (Current MODs vastly improved this, but not enough to be comparable with Skyrim's landscapes when it's also modded. And anyway, many here believe that MOD should not be taken into account in the comparison, so...) But notice that I'm not looking for approval here, I'm not asking if anyone agrees with me, not wanting to convince anyone. What I'm saying is what I think of the series: that it's terrible as RPGs, but that in every new game in the series, the exploration has become more and more interesting. But I use "exploration" in a completely dissociated sense of anything related to an RPG.

(EDIT: As I said, think about "EuroTruck simulator" when I say exploration.)

And for me, that's fine. I hope Bethesda continue to advance more and more in that direction, if possible, by returning tools like levitation, climbing, and making the cities to be part of the world, seamlessly (as some MODs already do). Doing this and refining this formula, I will probably like the new games more and more. Because I just don't and can't see them as RPGs, and when you say that they are terrible as RPGs, to my ears, is like telling me that Planescape is terrible as an action game.

Simply, this is not what I seek in them.

 

[Bleed the Man]

What I'm saying is what I think of the series: that it's terrible as a RPGs, but that in every new game in the series, the exploration has become more and more interesting. But I use "exploration" in a completely dissociated sense of anything related to an RPG.

Then what's exploration? Watch pretty landscapes?

Exploration is tied to other "mechanics", like loot, combat, dungeon and encounter design... etc. If you don't like the combat, and therefore don't care for the loot or the encounters, and certainly dungeon design has absolutely turn for the worse since Daggerfall... then what the fuck is good about exploration???

I'm sorry, it's a fucking (action) RPG, a really piss poor RPG. There's no way arround it, and even if you don't look for RPG elements, the stuff you look for depends on it. So... what on earth are you talking about?

 

[Bubbles]

If you don't like the combat, and therefore don't care for the loot or the encounters, and certainly dungeon design has absolutely turn for the worse since Daggerfall... then what the fuck is good about exploration???

Steam Achievements. Welcome to 2015, grandpa.

 

[Sykar]

How could it be incline? Everything in their games is either randomly generated or dumbed down. Or just plain horrible design.

If I could ever meet Todd Howard, I would keep punching him until he says at least 3 sentences about Bethesda games that are not lies.

So basically he has to say:
Bethesda sucks
We lied about almost everything
I am a horrible person

Does that cover it?

 

[Machocruz]

response

I don't think these are great games, they just have great pieces in them that are worth the time. The praise the series gets is not in line with the overall quality of the games, imo. I could write a long comment on Morrowind's flaws. I only disagree that the RPG systems are equally terrible in all the games. The rest of my points was addressing other statements in this thread. To me, the difference between MW and everything after is considerable.

I haven't gotten much into modded Skyrim yet. Still trying to find out which is closest to Oscuro's Oblivion mod in regards to treasure/loot and new factions/monsters. After that is taken care of, the major problem with Skyrim is the dungeons. Oblivion at least had size, and properly modded, you had some decent, immersive crawling. My character fled in terror from many an Ayleid ruin.

And is it me, or are he dungeons in Skyrim overly lit? I remember deep shadows in OB's ruins.

 

[King Crispy]

And is it me, or are he dungeons in Skyrim overly lit?

They are, severely so. There are several mods that do address this.

 

[Drowed]

Then what's exploration? Watch pretty landscapes?

That, too, but not only that. If you didn't get it even now, I don't think any more explanation will do it for you.

I'm sorry, it's a fucking (action) RPG, a really piss poor RPG.

Yeah, it is one of the worse ones I know.

There's no way arround it, and even if you don't look for RPG elements, the stuff you look for depends on it. So... what on earth are you talking about?

'Bout this:

I don't think these are great games, they just have great pieces in them that are worth the time. The praise the series gets is not in line with the overall quality of the games, imo. I could write a long comment on Morrowind's flaws. I only disagree that the RPG systems are equally terrible in all the games. The rest of my points was addressing other statements in this thread. To me, the difference between MW and everything after is considerable.

Well, to each his own, I guess. I really wanted to like Morrowind as an RPG, since it's a Codex favofite and all that. But... I just couldn't.

And is it me, or are he dungeons in Skyrim overly lit? I remember deep shadows in OB's ruins.

Oh yeah, they are. It's like the rocks are fucking glowing.

There are good mods for lighting and illumination.

 

[Bubbles]

'Bout this:

Skyrim has that too:

 

[Bleed the Man]

That, too, but not only that. If you didn't get it even know, I don't think any more explanation will do it for you.

No, I get it, I just don't understand it, if that makes any sense. How walking aimlessly through the pretty environments grants any sort of joy if you don't like the mechanics or quests that interact with it? It's some sort of Bethesda's version of the trope "i play Bioware games for the story and characters" sort of thing, just with environments?

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but I just don't understand it.

 

[Machocruz]

'Bout this:

So it's like me playing Outrun back in the day and not caring about winning the race, but enjoying the trip. Or doing the same in GTA.

The advantage that Minecraft has over Skyrim in that regard is that, at least to me, Minecraft was unknown territory when I first played it, while Skyrim was more of what I was already familiar with. Because of updates and procedural generation, MC was a land of endless possibilities. Being able to go down nto the earth adds another layer that other hiking sims don't have.

 

[Lemming42]

No, I get it, I just don't understand it, if that makes any sense. How walking aimlessly through the pretty environments grants any sort of joy if you don't like the mechanics or quests that interact with it? It's some sort of Bethesda's version of the trope "i play Bioware games for the story and characters" sort of thing, just with environments?

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but I just don't understand it.

The games are, at first, good at creating the illusion that something interesting might be around the next corner, something amazing might be in the next cave, some interesting NPC might be in the next wilderness village you stumble into.

Typically there actually isn't anything interesting, but it takes about 20-40 hours to realize that by which time you've already gotten your money's worth out of the game and are ready to quit anyway.

And for some people the wandering aimlessly around is it's own reward.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

Without reading any of the rest of this thread, they've been slowly inclining after the sharp decline of Oblivion. I've been a fairly big Bethesda fan since Morrowind (The reports of Daggerfall's bugginess put me off back in the day, and I didn't buy enough gaming magazines to have heard of them before Daggerfall) and I still wrung a bunch of enjoyment out of Oblivion (Initially vanilla until the level scaling ruined my hiking simulator, then slathered with more mods than I ever even looked at for Morrowind), but... Yeah. Oblivion was pretty grim. Fallout 3 was a slight step up (As a Bethesda hiking sim. Even with the 100+ hours I spent playing it it never floated my Fallout boat) due to reduced level scaling and generally better balance, and Skyrim was a larger step up from Fallout 3 with some mutually exclusive questlines (Not much, but it was something), even better/less level scaling, and even shit like radiant quests worked reasonably well. The rewards for them were usually garbage and they're all simple, none the less used as padding they worked well.

Kinda opposite to this, Bioware's been declining. Used to play all their shit and enjoy it to varying degrees. They had a slight incline with Dragon Age Origins but Mass Effect ended up boring me pretty badly, and while ME2 might've worked better since it leaned more heavily on action (And I did finish it) I couldn't give a shit about the story, especially since it had fuck-all to do with the previous game and apparently the third which I never even played. And as mentioned Dragon Age 2 is fuckawful and Dragon Age 3 is mostly considered varying degrees of awful. I'll probably make Brut sad by saying it but Bioware's basically dead to me now. If they do another EA humble bundle and I can pick up ME3 for a dollar I'll probably attempt the whole series just because, but eh.

And Obsidian (Because I'm off on a tangent now) is sorta in between. I usually enjoy the setting and/or writing in their games and dislike the gameplay. The one exception being New Vegas which I enjoyed both the story and gameplay, but that could be my love of Bethesda hiking sims bleeding through. Admittedly FNV is balanced a hell of a lot better than FO3 and has more interesting quests and overall structure (With the multiple factions you can join) so Obsidian did beat the host-company they were sucking blood from in that situation. Will be interesting to see how Pillars of Eternity pans out.

MORAL OF THE STORY IS BETHESDA IS THE GREATEST AND I CANNOT WAIT FOR FALLOUT 4*

Spoiler

*Seriously. Or the next TES game. I don't care, I'm just antsy for Bethesda's next heavily moddable hiking simulator. If they had the poor sense to drop modding it would give me pause, but since they've stuck to making their shit moddable so far I assume they'll continue to do so. They know their bread is buttered on the rape and bestiality mod side.

Spoiler

Also a Fallout 4 might mean another Obsidian Fallout spinoff. As long as Bethesda keeps their Fallout shit to the east and Obsidian gets the west that's a-ok.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Skyrim has one of the nicest game worlds ever made in terms of scope and detail. The design of the overall map, biomes and all the different cities is fucking ace. Better than Morrowind, easily. On the other hand, character creation/progression is awful, combat's pretty bad, dungeon design is repetitive, quest design is mostly boring, and NPCs range from incredibly bland to faintly memorable. Pains me to say it, but the gameplay / game mechanics in Fallout 3 are better, V.A.T.S. and all.

Still, I'd rather play a game that excels in one area over something that's mediocre through and through, like Dragon Age: Origins.

 

[Dwemer Puzzle Box]

Skyrim has one of the nicest game worlds ever made in terms of scope and detail. The design of the overall map, biomes and all the different cities is fucking ace. Better than Morrowind, easily.

Please elaborate.

 

[imweasel]

Skyrim has one of the nicest game worlds ever made in terms of scope and detail.

No, it's shit. Total shit, just like everything else in that game. Skyrim is just a bunch of copy pasted bullshit like snow covered mountains and dirt paths. The two or three towns in the game are very small and boring as fuck. *yawn*

New Vegas has pretty good area design and very interesting locations. Could be better, but it is still better than any of that shit Bethesda has ever made.

 

[Severian Silk]

FNV needed more distance between locations. The map felt cramped.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Please elaborate.

Sure. Each city in Skyrim has a unique and developed culture, reinforced by distinct architecture, armor designs, and in-game lore. There's just straight up more attention paid to those details in Skyrim than in Morrowind. There's settlements and lone huts all over the continent in Skyrim, and they generally make sense in terms of why people would live there, what do they eat, etc... In ways that Morrowind never really got in to (see the farms all around Whiterun). And the world is just easier to navigate with tons of memorable landmarks that are visible from a distance and unique flora/fauna and terrain types for difference regions. It's fucking beautiful too. I mean, I like the weirdness of Morrowind, but Skyrim is the better looking game hands down and one of the nicer looking games of the past 5ish years.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Skyrim is just a bunch of copy pasted bullshit like snow covered mountains and dirt paths.

The two or three towns in the game are very small and boring as fuck.

New Vegas has pretty area design

 

[imweasel]

Sure. Each city in Skyrim has a unique and developed culture, reinforced by distinct architecture, armor designs, and in-game lore. There's just straight up more attention paid to those details in Skyrim than in Morrowind. There's settlements and lone huts all over the continent in Skyrim, and they generally make sense in terms of why people would live there, what do they eat, etc... In ways that Morrowind never really got in to (see the farms all around Whiterun). And the world is just easier to navigate with tons of memorable landmarks that are visible from a distance and unique flora/fauna and terrain types for difference regions. It's fucking beautiful too. I mean, I like the weirdness of Morrowind, but Skyrim is the better looking game hands down and one of the nicer looking games of the past 5ish years.

For saying shit world design is great. Skyrim is boring copy-pasted bullshit through and through.

Fucking Bethesdatards, as long as they can hike everything is wonderful and beautiful.

 

[AN4RCHID]

What is copy-pasted bullshit on the Skyrim overworld map? The towns all have different building types, different guards, different guilds and types of quests... different regions have different plants, different geography, different enemy types, different difficulty levels... How is this in any way more copy-pasted than Morrowind?

 

[Onholyservicebound]

Different guards.
If only other game devs understood the complex hue slider in photoshop enough to make such interesting and diverse guards throughout their cities.

 

[Lhynn]

AN4RCHID you are not winning this one, skyrim towns were most definitely shit. There was but a single exception and that is Markarth, that place was gud.

 

[imweasel]

AN4RCHID you are not winning this one, skyrim towns were most definitely shit. There was but a single exception and that is Markarth, that place was gud.

Yep, that is probably the only place in the entire game that is interesting and has good architecture.

 

[Jaesun]

So basically, running around in an OMG SO PRETTY environment == GREATEST RPG EVAR?