Is Bethesda inclined?

[Lemming42]

Sure. Each city in Skyrim has a unique and developed culture, reinforced by distinct architecture, armor designs, and in-game lore. There's just straight up more attention paid to those details in Skyrim than in Morrowind.

You might want to replay Morrowind, because there's endless subtle details in architecture and clothing. The cities didn't tend to look wildly different like Skyrim but it could be argued that they were actually more diverse.

 

[Greatness]

Not to mention Skyrim's cities are so down-scaled. There's like, what 15 buildings in all of Whiterun? Balmora had more than double that. Vivec probably has more locations by itself than every city in Skyrim combined.

 

[A user named cat]

Skyrim wasn't any better than Oblivion because it's the same exact boring shit just with worse music, kill cam Dorito finishers and dragoncrabs. I suppose that like Crysis and STALKER, it's fine to fire up once in a while to LARP a hiking guide or mess with mods but please fuck off with the "incline" praise because the papercut combat gameplay is about as interesting as reading Hiver's thoughts on Game of Thrones.

 

[Sykar]

Skyrim wasn't any better than Oblivion because it's the same exact boring shit just with worse music, kill cam Dorito finishers and dragoncrabs. I suppose that like Crysis and STALKER, it's fine to fire up once in a while to LARP a hiking guide or mess with mods but please fuck off with the "incline" praise because the papercut combat gameplay is about as interesting as reading Hiver's thoughts on Game of Thrones.

Wait, Hiver posts here as well? First time I read his posts was on the Larian forums about D:OS. He is a very.... "special" poster.

 

[Infinitron]

Wait, Hiver posts here as well? First time I read his posts was on the Larian forums about D:OS. He is a very.... "special" poster.

What do you mean "as well"? He originated from here. Migrated to other forums after we punished him for being a little too hiver.

 

[Sykar]

What do you mean "as well"? He originated from here. Migrated to other forums after we punished him for being a little too hiver.

Oh, that explains a lot.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

Funny how Morrowind is celebrated on these forums and Oblivion is the anti christ when the each following iteration in the TES series has been a dumbed down version of the last one since Daggerfall. Consistency.

Daggerfall was just too ambitious for its time.

 

[Varn]

Bethesda are horrible. All theyve ever done is release the same game over and over again, removing more and more gameplay features with each new iteration. They should stop with skyrim; the 10/10 scores were from some of the most fraudulent reviewing i've ever seen.

 

[Lord Azlan]

I disagree. For example, compare the Nerano manor quest to any similar tier quest in either Oblivion or Skyrim. Now maybe I just didn't play the latter two long enough, but let's look at the layers we are dealing with in that quest in terms of solutions

Get the key from Nerano:
-pickpocket
-knock him out and take it (unpatched)
-kill him and take it

Get the key from his servant:
-Persuade/Bribe
-Pickpocket
-Attack, kill, and take it, enraging the whole Council Club and leading to a battle where I hole up in a room and kill guys as the bunch up at the door. Fun times.
-Goad him into attacking you, kill and take it.

Killing his servant ties into another quest, so now we have Fallout-esque cross quest design. And this isn't even a major story quest. That's superior, or at least more interesting, CRPG design. I can't remember anything like this in Skyrim. And how about the several detective quests you get in MW, like solving the murder in Vivec. No arrows pointing you to the house that the person who did it lives in.

Besides that, the devil of the differences between MW and Skyrim is in the details, which some of you are overlooking.

-How was your thieving experience in Skyrim? Were you satisfied with the contents of high security chests, with your bowls, brandy, and 50 coins? I was in MW because I usually found something that justified the security level. because good items weren't level gimped or relegated to quest rewards. How about robbing merchants? Did you like how items were hidden away in invisible chests in OB and Skyrim? Me, I prefer a merchant having all his wares, no matter how valuable, on the premises, with a guard around. It's not only more satisfying for a thief class and lets me do the thing I signed up for, it renders the world more believable. They made the actual sneaking better in OB and Skyrim, but forgot to give you anything interesting to do with it.

-Skyrim is good for exploration/hiking you say? If your definition of exploration is walking around and looking at 3D models, I guess so. I call that sight-seeing, tourism, the same thing every milquetoast yuppie does in real life and comes home with a Hawaiian shirt....from the airport. My definition of exploration is more like what Indiana Jones does - exploring to find something interesting or useful, like a sunken city or a powerful unique item. I also like being able to stumble upon an orc fortress and get a mudhole stomped in my ass at level 5. Skyrim had a little bit of this last thing, so kudos I guess..

-Spells. Morrowind has levitation, teleportation, and spellmaking. Nuff said.

-Back to items again: In 60+ hours of Skyrim, divided among two different characters and two different routes through the game, I didn't find one piece of impressive, unique loot. In Morrowind you can find a good sword in the first major town. Maybe you guys like the developer to babysit you so you don't "break" the game (which wouldn't be a problem if they had high level enemies in the world from the beginning), but I like to make those choices myself. And there is just more of everything in MW, and these games are about breadth over depth.

-Environmental variety. Do I have to explain this to anyone who considers themselves a proper explorefag or expert on all things ES? Morrowind wins.

-Guild advancement requirements. Brought up on the previous page. Bolsters class differentiation and skill choices, heightens verisimilitude/logical operation of world.

-Verticality. Loved sneaking in through the top floor of places in MW. And Levitation, again. Don't remember if Skryim's shops and homes had accessible second floors, but if I can remember them in a 15 year old game...

Now, the perk system in Skyrim is a fine idea, but a lot of the actual perks are uninteresting. That's the problem with Bethesda: when it comes to actual systems, they think small, mundane. Mods like Requiem make the perk tree more useful

Combat is ok for what it is. Can't really complain about the mechanics themselves considering the rest of this series. Doesn't feel near as dangerous as Daggerfall though.

Dungeons: In practice, I wasn't really upset by the linearity, but they should have sprinkled in at least 3 labyrinthine mega-dungeons. Perhaps they did and my path never took me to one?

If Skyrim had brought back the elements I listed in addition to the solid foundation it has, I would be singing its praises with the rest of the proles; after all, I thought that Martigan's Monster Mod alone was enough to make Oblivion into something interesing, not to mention some of the overhaul mods that really added substance. There are really no excuses to go backwards on things that would enhance exploration, skullduggery, immersion. I can't believe they can't find a way to bring back flight magic, which is something that few RPGs offer and is one of the most interesting and empowering things they can offer. Even primitive ass M&M6 had it. They insist on doing towns the way they do, and it just makes me smh. And the way they do items is just pathetic. They had it right MW, the right balance of expectation, anticipation, and reward. You weren't always going to find something good if you went the extra step, but there was a great enough chance that you would that made it worth doing. It's the mystery box feeling that no other game has done as well since, outside of maybe your first playthrough of a Souls game.

So no, Skyirm is not "Morrowind but better."

I was asking for some objective reason why people think Morrowind is worthy of a top ten RPG of ALL TIME and Skyrim is WORST GAME EVER.

I have played and beaten both games - played them a lot.

"Combat is ok for what it is. Can't really complain about the mechanics themselves considering the rest of this series. Doesn't feel near as dangerous as Daggerfall though."

Let's just start with this. The poster compares to Daggerfall NOT Skyrim. Then the objective and well argued point "ok for what it is".

Anyone that has played both games should accept the combat in Skyrim is better. Now, for some reason combat matters in games, especially RPG. Since I have been here I have read lots of posts about games I have played and games I would go on to play. We take our combat seriously. The combat mambo in Grimrock, the combat in Wasteland 2, the combat simulator which is Blackguards. The sloooooow combat in Wiz 8. Combat matters. However, it is not everything.

Dungeons. Which has better dungeons? Morrowind has notable places. Cavern of the Incarnate blew my mind. The Corprusarium was pretty unique and weird. Lots of good stuff. Although not a dungeon, Vivec was something else entirely. Skyrim had Blackreach. Shimmermist Cave. Bthardamz. I could go on. Is this really an easy win for Morrowind? Really? Do dungeons need to be maze like and long and impossible. Let's just think about the Daggerfall dungeons for a minute. All I would say is that it is not quite that easy win for Morrowind.

Perk System - "some are uninteresting". Well, both games are from the same stable and a lot of things are similar. Races, birthsigns, skills etc. Skyrim has this crafting game in as a skill so you could build your own batchelor pad, armour and weapons. You could craft jewellry from ore found in mines. A bunch of one handed combat skills disappeared into One Handed - but within that you could specialise in the tree. Two Handed weapons skill appeared. We lost some skills such as "Spear" and "Athletics" and gained Perks.

Let's face it, levelling up in these games is very similar, you level up by using skills. In each game levelling could be 'abused' so you gain HP and anything else quicker. Fall off cliffs, run in a puddle, make lots of potions. I would suggest levelling in Skyrim is better than in Morrowind because apart from HP/magic blah you can also choose perks. Lots of different ones across any skill. Later on depending on how high your skill actually is. In many games we say more is better, more is complex, more gives you choices. But now more is less? So, levelling, character development, which is better?

However, in summary, my belief is that Morrowind is the better game. When I try and break down why - it is not easy. Looking at all the 100 different things that make a great game it was just a GREAT GAME. I liked how you could resize all the different screens. I can't tell you how much I just loved that final encounter - Dagoth Ur made me crap my pants.

A problem I found in all these games you character can't help becoming Uber. Later on I played in a way I would try and limit my abilities.

Morrowind was just this unique, strange, eerie experience. It was unique. Even the main story line to become the Nerevarine was so engaging. The lore and history behind it all was so well done. The Silt Striders, Vivec, the Dwarves, Mushrooms. Giant crabs.

God damn it, this game was so special even the developers had to make Morrowind DLC for the subsequent Oblivion and Skyrim.

All the players want Morrowind in Oblivion or Morrow in Skyrim. No one wants anything else.

Skyrim ain't no Morrowind although it's pretty good. Incline - I dunno. But I hope they keep making these games.

 

[AN4RCHID]

AN4RCHID you are not winning this one, skyrim towns were most definitely shit. There was but a single exception and that is Markarth, that place was gud.

Markarth is just the most alien looking city. Riften, Windhelm and Whiterun were equally interesting imo. Even Solitude has a little more character than just a generic fantasy city like every place in Oblivion.

 

[Luzur]

Bethesda really needs to work on their absolutely atrocious AI though. Case in point, I can crouch right in front of an NPC in the darkness, pepper it with arrows, and it'll fail to detect me.

I've been actually pushed aside by bandits while sneaking when they didnt see me and went for my companion instead, who cant sneak for shit and always aggro the instant my first arrow hit an enemy.

 

[Luzur]

That, too, but not only that. If you didn't get it even now, I don't think any more explanation will do it for you.



Yeah, it is one of the worse ones I know.



'Bout this:




Well, to each his own, I guess. I really wanted to like Morrowind as an RPG, since it's a Codex favofite and all that. But... I just couldn't.



Oh yeah, they are. It's like the rocks are fucking glowing.

There are good mods for lighting and illumination.

Minecraft could become a nice open world RPG, if Mojang ever get their thumbs out of their ass and add in those elements (villages, empty underground fortresses and 1 room "dungeons" dont quite make it so.) but alas.

And yeah who actually goes around and lights all those torches in the old ruins and tombs that been sealed for decades when i open them? i doubt the Draugr need light (that is another complaint i have, Draugr, Draugr and Draugr, where are the normal zombies and skeletons and other undead? each region of the world has its own locked zombietype or what? geez Bethesda)...

 

[Luzur]

Markarth is just the most alien looking city. Riften, Windhelm and Whiterun were equally interesting imo. Even Solitude has a little more character than just a generic fantasy city like every place in Oblivion.

I added two expanded cities mod in my Skyrim, which makes the towns and villages look as they should (as in more fluff like housing, suburbs and more people) and also adds in missing Lore friendly towns from Arena.

 

[Luzur]

Not to mention Skyrim's cities are so down-scaled. There's like, what 15 buildings in all of Whiterun? Balmora had more than double that. Vivec probably has more locations by itself than every city in Skyrim combined.

In y game Whiterun as some 10-13 buildings outside too, with market stands and people, and Solitude got a new suburb with atleast 5-6 houses on each side on that path up to the city gates, 15 buildings added inside around the town (sure some of them are fluff, but i dont enter every building in my town either) and also the harbor has been buffed up with more shops, ships and buildings, the same with every other city in Skyrim.

 

[AN4RCHID]

I added two expanded cities mod in my Skyrim, which makes the towns and villages look as they should (as in more fluff like housing, suburbs and more people) and also adds in missing Lore friendly towns from Arena.

Gonna try that one on my next heavily modded run. I don't think fluff buildings and NPCs are super important, though - the big cities in Skyrim have a decent number of shops, inns, guilds, named NPCs and quests already.

 

[Luzur]

Gonna try that one on my next heavily modded run. I don't think fluff buildings and NPCs are super important, though - the big cities in Skyrim have a decent number of shops, inns, guilds, named NPCs and quests already.

Well it adds more inns, shops, smiths and NPC's that moves around to every city, so im A-OK with them.

 

[AW8]

No, it's shit. Total shit, just like everything else in that game. Skyrim is just a bunch of copy pasted bullshit like snow covered mountains and dirt paths.

You little weasel! Why, I oughta...

Skyrim's world is large. And yet it is varied. It is made up of several beautiful biomes - you got forests, mountains, tundra, hot springs, snowy plains, icebergs, marshes. The visual design is great. Easily worthy of being compared to Morrowind's.

The two or three towns in the game are very small and boring as fuck. *yawn*

The towns, yes. The cities, no.

The five large cities are all visually distinct from each other. Compare Whiterun to Solitude and Windhelm. They differ from each other just as Balmora differs from Ald'Ruhn and Sadrith Mora (although not as much, Telvanni mushroom towers and all).

If the cities in TES VI are as visually diverse as they are in Skyrim, I'll be very pleased. It gives every city a different feel, instead of having them all follow the same design with a few twerks like in Oblivion.

New Vegas has pretty good area design and very interesting locations. Could be better, but it is still better than any of that shit Bethesda has ever made.

New Vegas is superior to Skyrim in almost every way.

Its visual design is inferior to Skyrim though, there's no doubt about that. It looks dull and copy-pasted in comparison to Skyrim. This applies to the towns, the big city, the bunkers, the caves and the wilderness. It's quite clear that more diverse assets/more development time was spent on Markarth than Freeside.

And the wilderness is an empty desert that stretches pretty much across the entire map. You can't even begin to compare this to the crags of the Reach versus the forests of the Rift.

This isn't New Vegas' fault though. Fallout was never meant to be played as a hiking simulator. Travelling through the empty desert was supposed to take place on a world map, where you warp from interesting location to interesting location, with the occasional encounter with a pack of radscorpions or a downed UFO.

That being said, exploring the Mojave Wasteland and moving from location to location, fighting raiders and Legionnaires and NCR troopers, is tremendously fun. It has meaning, unlike Skyrim's exploration which is just dumb fun but pointless in the end. It's just a lot more tiresome for the eyes.

If Bethesda continues with the same mindset of creating a lot of diverse art assets as in Skyrim for their next Fallout, and then let Obsidian make another Fallout game with those assets, that game would not only be great gameplay-wise (clunky inherited combat and interfaces aside) but visually as well.

 

[Glaurung]

Ten years ago:
durr hurr everything in morrowind is shit everythn in daggerfall is awesome coz its oldschool

Today:
durr hurr everything in skyrim is shit everythn in morrowind is awesome coz its oldschool

Ten years later:
durr hurr everything in Tes VII March of Akavir is shit everythn in skyrim is awesome coz its oldschool


Retards, retards never change.

 

[Bubbles]

Ten years later:
durr hurr everything in Tes VI Heroes of Cyrodiil is shit everythn in skyrim is awesome coz its oldschool

more likely this

 

[Machocruz]

"Combat is ok for what it is. Can't really complain about the mechanics themselves considering the rest of this series. Doesn't feel near as dangerous as Daggerfall though."

Let's just start with this. The poster compares to Daggerfall NOT Skyrim. Then the objective and well argued point "ok for what it is".

Cheeky. But I had no intention on providing critical analysis of Skyrim's combat. It's to demonstrate I'm not a blind hater of the game and can accept certain things in the game that are passable, like poor to mediocre control and feedback in an Elder Scrolls game. The comparison to DF is because SKyrim has better handling but combat is not just about controls. If the enemies are not a threat, then I can't say the combat is all that compelling. My comments aren't strictly concerning how Sky compares to MW.

Anyone that has played both games should accept the combat in Skyrim is better.

Hence why I stated:

Can't really complain about the mechanics themselves considering the rest of this series.

i.e. considering the rest of the series has weak combat.

. Is this really an easy win for Morrowind? Really? Do dungeons need to be maze like and long and impossible. Let's just think about the Daggerfall dungeons for a minute. All I would say is that it is not quite that easy win for Morrowind.

Yes it is. MW had a variety of dungeon layouts, from long to short, labyrinthine to open, single level to multi-tiered. Yes, they need to feel dangerous, forbidding, sometimes grand and monumental, mysterious, gloomy and creepy when appropriate. Skyrim has 7th generation console FPS layout, over and over, with not enough alternatives to matter. They lack ambition. MW had a temple in the sky FFS. It wins. DF dungeons were crafted by mad men and you didn't know what to expect sometimes. It wins.

Perk System - "some are uninteresting". Well, both games are from the same stable and a lot of things are similar. Races, birthsigns, skills etc. Skyrim has this crafting game in as a skill so you could build your own batchelor pad, armour and weapons. You could craft jewellry from ore found in mines. A bunch of one handed combat skills disappeared into One Handed - but within that you could specialise in the tree. Two Handed weapons skill appeared. We lost some skills such as "Spear" and "Athletics" and gained Perks.

Let's face it, levelling up in these games is very similar, you level up by using skills. In each game levelling could be 'abused' so you gain HP and anything else quicker. Fall off cliffs, run in a puddle, make lots of potions. I would suggest levelling in Skyrim is better than in Morrowind because apart from HP/magic blah you can also choose perks. Lots of different ones across any skill. Later on depending on how high your skill actually is. In many games we say more is better, more is complex, more gives you choices. But now more is less? So, levelling, character development, which is better?

Not comparing Skyrim to MW here either. These perks are just not interesting enough to be the sole skill system of a real time game. Dragon's Dogma gives you things like double jump, levitation, melee AoE, leap attacks, etc., Path of Exile has Skill Gems to go along with its huge passive tree. Skyirm has a small selection of shouts and boring spells with boring spell effects. Bethesda have no style or flavor when it comes to abilities or powers. The Requiem mod doesn't give you the ability to split the earth or catch sword attacks in your naked hands, but it does break the skill trees down into more granular paths of specialization, which is at least a boon to role-players.

However, in summary, my belief is that Morrowind is the better game. When I try and break down why - it is not easy.

I think it's quite easy, I provided a cursory breakdown that touched on quests, thieving, itemization, player agency, spell selection, exploration, environment, world logic. Better combat and arguably better skill system can't make up for what is absent.

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

So basically he has to say:
Bethesda sucks
We lied about almost everything
I am a horrible person

Does that cover it?

Well played, Codex Troll :D Even though these sentences aren't really about Bethesda games. :D

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

Ten years ago:
durr hurr everything in morrowind is shit everythn in daggerfall is awesome coz its oldschool

Today:
durr hurr everything in skyrim is shit everythn in morrowind is awesome coz its oldschool

Ten years later:
durr hurr everything in Tes VII March of Akavir is shit everythn in skyrim is awesome coz its oldschool


Retards, retards never change.

less than 200posts and already tagged

. i think it might be a new record here on Codex

 

[Jaesun]

It's not actually.

 

[Hirato]

We previously had a dumbfuck in about 5 posts.

 

[Dwemer Puzzle Box]

Tes VII March of Akavir

Please no.