Shadowrun Is Shadowrun Returns a cRPG? Case study

[Kyl Von Kull]

DMS is not fucking interactive.

Who the fuck are you to say it isn't interactive. Define interactive motherfucker. I'm pretty sure it didn't pin me to the ground and shit its content down my throat without my will. I'm pretty goddamned sure I chose how and when to interact with the fucking thing.

I'm not shitposting. You generic regurgitating oldfags are the shitposters....just spewing out the same bullshit day after day....

It's got an almost totally linear progression. There's, what, one optional side mission? Two? The way the game plays, you go to location, click on the interactable objects in the correct order, then have a fight, go back to your base, get assigned another mission, recruit temporary squadmates, go to next location, click all interactable objects, fight, rinse and repeat. The best that can be said for DMS is that there's a little optional content at the very beginning and you have the occasional etiquette check, but normally that just saves you bribe money.

Let me put it this way: nothing of value would be lost if, rather than going back to the central hub between missions, you just got a menu screen where you were assigned the next mission and had the options to upgrade your equipment and choose your companions. And if the game were structured like that, no one would confuse it with a CRPG--everyone would acknowledge that it's a turn based tactics game.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

I would say that fucking Googling is a CRPG....if I want it to be.

Fucking idiot.

 

[J_C]

Can we get a Dumbfuck tag to this Swampy boy, he is working pretty hard to earn it ITT?

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

You morons think only your narrowly defined concepts are cannon of what is or isn't a game or role-playing.

No, that's what you're doing. We're having a conversation & debate where we "share" our thoughts. You're shouting loudly and trying to 'enforce' only your own opinion, not actually conversing with people but just calling names and being a 5 year old on a tantrum.

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

Then you just didn't get into the role. Playing a part in a play doesn't give you options of how the plot plays out...you either get into the role provided or you don't. Nothing about role-playing requires that the role-player gets to orchestrate the plot.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Can we get a Dumbfuck tag to this Swampy boy, he is working pretty hard to earn it ITT?

Was about to tag some people to ask myself, but I don't know who does the tags. Is it DarkUnderlord or Infinitron or does someone else have this duty?

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

No, that's what you're doing. We're having a conversation & debate where we "share" our thoughts. You're shouting loudly and trying to 'enforce' only your own opinion, not actually conversing with people but just calling names and being a 5 year old on a tantrum.

No you're literally trying to define both what a game must be and also what role-playing must be.

I'm trying to tell you that both things are very much open to other interpretations.

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

Incendiary...instead of trying to have me tagged....which is fine....i don't fucking care. Explain to me why your definition of a game, and your definition of role-playing is somehow superior to mine.

Mine being simply: You can play however the fuck you want to (so long as it does no harm).

 

[rusty_shackleford]

is posting on the codex a crpg?

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

But for what it is....a discrete little story inside the Shadowrun universe....on a small scale. It's brilliant. So many games are about Saving the Whole Fucking Universe. With Shadowrun Returns you get to be a low-level little shit just trying to get paid and maybe avenge your friend's death. And a nice little twist at the end. That's really the brilliance of all of the Shadowrun games, yes even Hong Kong. You're not the savior of the universe. At best you maintain the equilibrium by propping up a local shady power that isn't in the pocket of a dragon-corporation (or maybe it is...in some other way).

Except you do have to save the world...

maybe...maybe not...you don't really know

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

No, that's what you're doing. We're having a conversation & debate where we "share" our thoughts. You're shouting loudly and trying to 'enforce' only your own opinion, not actually conversing with people but just calling names and being a 5 year old on a tantrum.

No you're literally trying to define both what a game must be and also what role-playing must be.

I'm trying to tell you that both things are very much open to other interpretations.

& like I've said, we've already debunked this in a gazillion threads before today. The term RPG with regards to a computer game is a marketing descriptor. Just like if a game is described as an FPS or Roguelike. It has a meaning to the person buying the game and all the expectations that comes with a marketing label. What the philosophical interpretation of infinite definitions is is irrelevant, what is relevant is what a consumer expects when they part with their money in exchange for goods. Anyone is free to call their game an RPG, but don't be surprised if you get lots of pissed off consumers if you sell them something that isn't an RPG... hence all the tags. Because this isn't about anal philosophical definitions, it's about real life, money changing definitions and being able to communicate what something is...

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

is posting on the codex a crpg?

Yes.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

But for what it is....a discrete little story inside the Shadowrun universe....on a small scale. It's brilliant. So many games are about Saving the Whole Fucking Universe. With Shadowrun Returns you get to be a low-level little shit just trying to get paid and maybe avenge your friend's death. And a nice little twist at the end. That's really the brilliance of all of the Shadowrun games, yes even Hong Kong. You're not the savior of the universe. At best you maintain the equilibrium by propping up a local shady power that isn't in the pocket of a dragon-corporation (or maybe it is...in some other way).

Except you do have to save the world...

maybe...maybe not...you don't really know

Yes. You do.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Would you say Anachronox is a cRPG? That should clear things up here.

I would say that fucking Googling is a CRPG....if I want it to be.

You morons think only your narrowly defined concepts are cannon of what is or isn't a game or role-playing. The whole fucking world is a role-playing game if you want it to be.

Pssst....that's what's great about the concept of Role-Playing games you nitwits.

If everything is an RPG then nothing is an RPG. You're free to think that anything you want can be an RPG if you just believe in it, but at that point the term has no meaning. Your definition is a non-definition. "An RPG is whatever you want it to be!" Thank you for valuable your input...

The premise behind the OP's question is that video games can be classified as belonging to roughly distinct genres, even if there's some overlap. This is not a controversial position. But if you disagree that RPGs are a distinct genre, then you really don't have anything to contribute to the conversation. We understand what you're saying we just think it's silly, and more importantly, it's utterly useless. You can say that a cow is a pigeon, but it's still a mammal that has udders and says "moo."

Edit: We're obviously referring to something when we say CRPG; we may disagree on the specifics but we definitely do not mean all computer games where the player feels like LARPing. Even if we conceded that your definition was correct, our concept of CRPGs would still exist--we'd just need to call it something else. You're quibbling over nomenclature.

Then you just didn't get into the role. Playing a part in a play doesn't give you options of how the plot plays out...you either get into the role provided or you don't. Nothing about role-playing requires that the role-player gets to orchestrate the plot.

Performing in a play is NOT playing a role playing game; anyone who claims that is an idiot. The emphasis here is on the word GAME.

As far as DMS goes, no one is asking for the game to let you control the fate of the world or determine the direction of the plot. But you should be able to control your character's reaction to the plot. Dragonfall lets you side with the bad guys, it lets you take mutually exclusive missions for different factions, it lets you interact with your squadmates in a variety of different ways. That's interactive storytelling. In a role playing game, the players participate in constructing the story.

If DMS was a pen and paper campaign, you would create your character, then the dungeon master would monologue at you for long stretches, while letting you make the occasional combat related decision. That's not a role playing game. The fact that you liken it to a play is telling. If you sat down for a P&P campaign and the DM gave every player a script, that would not be a role playing game; it would be a line reading.

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

a marketing descripto

Wot? A fucking marketing descriptor? You're willing to allow the fucking marketplace to define one of the things you love in life?

That's absolutely pathetic...

Gaming and role-playing are more than market descriptors. They are approaches to life itself.

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

Yes. You do.

No..you really don't.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Explain to me why your definition of a game, and your definition of role-playing is somehow superior to mine.

You just now argued that googling can be considered a cRPG......c'mon man.

 

[Swampy_Merkin]

We understand what you're saying we just think it's silly, and more importantly, it's utterly useless.

No...I completely understand what all of you are saying. My point is: it's utterly stupid, pointless, retarded, and fuck you. The number of "is this a crpg" and "what is a crpg" threads on this site is the ultimate revealer of what a bunch of utterly pointless circle-jerks you all are.

It's pathetic.

I'm going to go role-play something utterly improvisational with real human beings now....

 

[HeatEXTEND]

"Hey fellow neck-beards!"
"huh?"
"Let's shit and piss in eachother's mouths like neck-beards do!"
"what?"
"FINE, I"M OIUTTA HERE, YOU'RE JUST A BUNCH OF NECK-BEARDS ANYWAY"
"huh?"

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

We understand what you're saying we just think it's silly, and more importantly, it's utterly useless.

No...I completely understand what all of you are saying. My point is: it's utterly stupid, pointless, retarded, and fuck you. The number of "is this a crpg" and "what is a crpg" threads on this site is the ultimate revealer of what a bunch of utterly pointless circle-jerks you all are.

It's pathetic.

Let me put it this way: if I had a peanut allergy and I asked if something had peanuts in it, a useful answer would be yes or no.

A useless answer would be what you're doing: saying that since everything is made from atoms, including peanuts, then theoretically everything has peanuts in it.

You can take a principled stand against genre labels, but humans use words to communicate. People here really like playing CRPGs, even mediocre ones. Of course we want to know whether or not a game fits some rough definition of CRPG. Sure, theoretically you can live action role play in any situation; however, this is a CRPG forum not a LARPing forum. Asking whether or not a game can be LARPed is a pointless question because anything can be LARPed. Asking whether a game has the characteristics we expect from a CRPG is a reasonable question and to ask that question it's helpful to have loosely defined terms, like role playing game.

We could just communicate with each other using hand gestures and feces flinging, but a while back we discovered this thing called language and it was a big upgrade. Highly recommended!

 

[rusty_shackleford]

We understand what you're saying we just think it's silly, and more importantly, it's utterly useless.

No...I completely understand what all of you are saying. My point is: it's utterly stupid, pointless, retarded, and fuck you. The number of "is this a crpg" and "what is a crpg" threads on this site is the ultimate revealer of what a bunch of utterly pointless circle-jerks you all are.

It's pathetic.

Let me put it this way: if I had a peanut allergy and I asked if something had peanuts in it, a useful answer would be yes or no.

A useless answer would be what you're doing: saying that since everything is made from atoms, including peanuts, then theoretically everything has peanuts in it.

You can take a principled stand against genre labels, but humans use words to communicate. People here really like playing CRPGs, even mediocre ones. Of course we want to know whether or not a game fits some rough definition of CRPG. Sure, theoretically you can live action role play in any situation; however, this is a CRPG forum not a LARPing forum. Asking whether or not a game can be LARPed is a pointless question because anything can be LARPed. Asking whether a game has the characteristics we expect from a CRPG is a reasonable question and to ask that question it's helpful to have loosely defined terms, like role playing game.

We could just communicate with each other using hand gestures and feces flinging, but a while back we discovered this thing called language and it was a big upgrade. Highly recommended!

if you have a peanut allergy then maybe that's evolution's way of saying you shouldn't be reproducing because you can be killed by a legume.

 

[Roguey]

role playing. what Sawyer describes as interactive storytelling. DMS makes an effort to appear to be an RPG, but it's just a turn based tactics game with character building and an unusual amount of dialogue.

Dragonfall is a CRPG, Dead Man's Switch is not. What does Dragonfall have that DMS doesn't? You can make choices that affect parts of the story.

If character building and character progression are the only criteria then Destiny is an RPG.

It has narrative and build-based reactivity comparable to something like Neverwinter Nights.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

role playing. what Sawyer describes as interactive storytelling. DMS makes an effort to appear to be an RPG, but it's just a turn based tactics game with character building and an unusual amount of dialogue.

Dragonfall is a CRPG, Dead Man's Switch is not. What does Dragonfall have that DMS doesn't? You can make choices that affect parts of the story.

If character building and character progression are the only criteria then Destiny is an RPG.

It has narrative and build-based reactivity comparable to something like Neverwinter Nights.

NWN OC can, in desperation, at least can be referred to as a loot game though... and this is on top of your singular parrot...

 

[Infinitron]

role playing. what Sawyer describes as interactive storytelling.

This is a misconception.

"Interactive storytelling" - a story in which you "make choices" - isn't sufficient to make a game an RPG per Sawyer. It has to be a story where you make choices and those choices meaningfully reflect and reinforce a persona that the player is roleplaying.

 

[Roguey]

NWN OC can, in desperation, at least be referred to as a loot game though... and this is on top of your singular parrot...

This brings us back to "RPGs defined as a checklist of features." DMS is a heavily-railroaded campaign using a role playing game system, but you do get to define your character's personality.