Shadowrun Is Shadowrun Returns a cRPG? Case study

[Blaine]

Oh hey wow, it's this conversation again.

The latest scientific way to determine with a reasonable degree of certainty whether or not something is a cRPG is as follows:

• Is it a cat?
• Is it chiefly a tangible object of some sort?
• Is it chiefly an intangible but coherent arrangement of data stored within and accessible by a system capable of performing computations, equipped with a man-machine interface, and capable of communicating output?

If the answers are no, no, and yes, then we can be reasonably confident in the "[personal] computer" portion.

• Is it interactive?
  
• Does it aid or assist with accomplishing productive work of any sort, with contributing to society, or with helping those in need?
• Is it primarily intended for (note: actual results may differ from intent) amusement and entertainment?

If the answers are yes/sort of, no, and yes, then we can be reasonably confident in the "game" portion.

Unfortunately, this is as far we've gotten, as "playing a role" strongly resists even vague definition, let alone being determined with a reasonable degree of certainty. Possibly not even a team of philosophers working for a decade could produce an answer to satisfy everyone, or even anyone.

After all, we're all playing roles right now on the grand stage of life, and yet this is no game, my friends. This is serious business.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

NWN OC can, in desperation, at least be referred to as a loot game though... and this is on top of your singular parrot...

This brings us back to "RPGs defined as a checklist of features." DMS is a heavily-railroaded campaign using a role playing game system, but you do get to define your character's personality.

It's not a checklist you spazz, it's the very basics of what people expect from an RPG. Loot is not a checklist item, it's something someone puts into an RPG without even thinking about it, it has it's own entire language that is completely unique to RPGs because it's one of the things that make RPGs not not-RPGs, duh. If your game doesn't have loot then it'd better be excelling in a heck of lot of other areas.

You trying to imply a checklist is you being no different to mr. crazy shitposter, trying to diminish something using philosophical word play, trying to invent a soundbite like "murder-hobo", only yours is "checklist mentality". If you're desperate to go down that road then, dur, if you're making a meal, you're doing it by following a "checklist mentality", only in that instance it's called a "recipe", if you're making a car then you'd be using a "checklist mentality", only you'd be referring to it as a "blueprint".

Developing an RPG requires you to adhere to some extremely basic "conventions". You deciding to change the term "convention" into "checklist" doesn't provide some fascinating insight into the nature of RPGs, it provides a fascinating insight into the mind of someone who doesn't know what an RPG is...

 

[Roguey]

Loot is not a checklist item

Yes it is. One does not need loot to make a game with role playing, and it exists in games without role playing and character customization.

it's something someone puts into an RPG without even thinking about it

I used to call this cargo cult design.

 

[Blaine]

Well folks, after all of these years, finally we have our definitive answer.

It's loot! Loot is the defining feature of an RPG. All RPGs must have looting mechanics. Well, looting mechanics CAN be omitted I suppose, but then the game's other aspects had better be damned spiffy to accommodate this special gimmick. Of course, not all games with looting mechanics are necessarily RPGs....

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Loot is not a checklist item

Yes it is. One does not need loot to make a game with role playing, and it exists in games without role playing and character customization.

it's something someone puts into an RPG without even thinking about it

I used to call this cargo cult design.

So you're going to ignore my reply and just repeat yourself, like all good soundbite politicians. Marvellous. You're a real credit to the cause... [if you're cause is ensuring decline].

Also, citation fucking needed... if you're going to say loot games exist in exclusion to RPGs, then you're going to have to start naming names, because Adventure Game quest items are not RPG loot. If you're going to list FPSes, then we all know that FPSes are a spin-off of RPGs, so, dur, yes, a pedant is free to call most FPSes RPGs, but we don't, because we have a brain and know why FPS has a different connotation with different expectations.

Also, how about listing all those great examples of pure RPGing that don't have 'loot', I'd bet that'd be a real incline list... or you could just, you know, repeat your catchphrase until the genre is completely fucked 100%...

 

[Blaine]

As a pedant, I should inform you that a poor grasp of possessives vs. contractions and gross overuse of ellipses also contribute heavily to decline.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Do we need to have a firm definition to know that Dead Man’s Switch isn’t an RPG? I say no.

If Battletech is not an RPG even though it has both leveling and far more narratively significant character creation, then how is DMS an RPG? Because you run around on an isometric map between missions and talk to people? Battletech also lets you define your character’s motivation within the context of a linear story. And it has loot. You even get lots of optional side content, nearly nonexistent in DMS.

The difference is that Battletech isn’t trying to create the illusion of being a CRPG. I think it’s fair to say that Shadowrun Returns has RPG aspirations, but it fails to achieve them. Failed RPG would be a more accurate description than bad RPG.

A duck floats in water, Shadowrun Returns weighs the same as a duck, ergo it is not an RPG.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

A duck floats in water, Shadowrun Returns weighs the same as a duck, ergo it is not an RPG.

If it quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it must be a duck.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

ID, our friends at the expert forum RPG Watch have created an excellent tool to help us out with questions like these and I am sure it can answer your question about the nature of SRR with scientific accuracy:

https://www.rpgwatch.com/crpg-analyzer.html

 

[Blaine]

IncendiaryDevice As a petty person, I should inform you that I will now be rating all of your posts in this thread retadred both as a retaliatory measure and to emphasize my disagreement with your opinions.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

IncendiaryDevice As a petty person, I should inform you that I will now be rating all of your posts in this thread retadred both as a retaliatory measure and to emphasize my disagreement with your opinions.

Or you could, you know, actually quote and converse instead of shitposting the most banal bullshit ever put onto a forum... but sure, pretend it's revenge, you weren't being at all completely retarded with your obvious bait that was so obvious a child would giggle at you and say "haha, he's silly"...

 

[Blaine]

Or you could, you know, actually quote and converse instead of shitposting the most banal bullshit ever put onto a forum... but sure, pretend it's revenge, you weren't being at all completely retarded with your obvious bait that was so obvious a child would giggle at you and say "haha, he's silly"...

Wait, you want to have an actual conversation? Well, why didn't you say so?

You're an uninteresting retard who is reinventing the wheel for the Nth time. You're making some of the same arguments that were made during the previous iteration of this discussion last year, as well as the year prior to last year, two years before you registered, two years before I registered, and each preceding year all the way back to the founding of the Codex by Saint_Proverbius as a Lionheart fan forum and website.

The only value these conversations have now is entertainment value, and the conclusion is ALWAYS: "I can't define it exactly, but I know it when I see it."

Attempting to support "I know it when I see it" with highly specific and invariably personalized criteria as you're doing here is absolutely idiotic, masturbatory, and a waste of time. So yeah, basically, the forum shitposters are going to toy with you like a cat playing with a crumpled-up piece of paper, because that's all that this boring shit is actually good for. As for the decline: Defining cRPGs properly here on the Codex isn't going to either retard it or speed it along, you melodramatic buffoon. The decline is and always has been outside of our control apart from the most obscure independently-developed RPGs.

 

[JarlFrank]

skims through some of the posts made since I last checked this thread

Ok so this is basically one of those threads again where one side comes up with a definition of RPG that excludes Ultima I-III, the entire Wizardry and Might and Magic series, the Gold Box games, Diablo and all its clones, and pretty much the entire Roguelike genre, while the other side comes up with a definition that includes Doom, Super Mario, and Tomb Raider because you "play a role", and both are being equally retarded and uneducated when it comes to the actual history and legacy of the genre?

Ok then.

grabs popcorn

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Or you could, you know, actually quote and converse instead of shitposting the most banal bullshit ever put onto a forum... but sure, pretend it's revenge, you weren't being at all completely retarded with your obvious bait that was so obvious a child would giggle at you and say "haha, he's silly"...

Wait, you want to have an actual conversation? Well, why didn't you say so?

You're an uninteresting retard who is reinventing the wheel for the Nth time. You're making some of the same arguments that were made during the previous iteration of this discussion last year, as well as the year prior to last year, two years before you registered, two years before I registered, and each preceding year all the way back to the founding of the Codex by Saint_Proverbius as a Lionheart fan forum and website.

The only value these conversations have now is entertainment value, and the conclusion is ALWAYS: "I can't define it exactly, but I know it when I see it."

Attempting to support "I know it when I see it" with highly specific and invariably personalized criteria as you're doing here is absolutely idiotic, masturbatory, and a waste of time. So yeah, basically, the forum shitposters are going to toy with you like a cat playing with a crumpled-up piece of paper, because that's all that this boring shit is actually good for. As for the decline: Defining cRPGs properly here on the Codex isn't going to either retard it or speed it along, you melodramatic buffoon. The decline is and always has been out of our control.

Awesome. So when I say "Shadowrun is not a cRPG" I'm saying: "I know an RPG when I see it, and this isn't one".

Do you agree or not?

If you have no input then fuck off, this isn't a generic "what is an RPG thread", this is an "is Shadowrun Returns: Dead Man's Switch a cRPG". If you're too thick to comprehend that subtle difference in thread content and destination then I have no fucking idea why you have such a jumped-up self image of yourself, because you're a complete fucking spastic.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

[Still waiting on Roguey 's lists...]

 

[JarlFrank]

If you have no input then fuck off, this isn't a generic "what is an RPG thread", this is an "is Shadowrun Returns: Dead Man's Switch a cRPG".

Shadowrun Returns: Dead Man's Switch is a cRPG.

 

[Big Wrangle]

Looks like we're gonna start leaning into the "What makes a good cRPG" question.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

If you have no input then fuck off, this isn't a generic "what is an RPG thread", this is an "is Shadowrun Returns: Dead Man's Switch a cRPG".

Shadowrun Returns: Dead Man's Switch is a cRPG.

I know, you said that earlier but then bottled out of continuing the conversation when someone challenged your opinion of the reasoning. You can repeat yourself if you like, but why are you doing that?

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

Looks like we're gonna start leaning into the "What makes a good cRPG" question.

that is a separate question to be asked *after* a list of elements that make cRPGs is revealed. A good game does *most* things it does, right. A good cRPG does the cRPG elements right.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Looks like we're gonna start leaning into the "What makes a good cRPG" question.

that is a separate question to be asked *after* a list of elements that make cRPGs is revealed. A good game does *most* things it does, right. A good cRPG does the cRPG elements right.

There's nothing that needs to be revealed. People don't complain about Pillars of Eternity because they doubt its an RPG, everyone is perfectly happy with PoE being classed as an RPG. Literally zero people made an "is Pillars of Eternity a cRPG" either post or thread. However, significant... let me repeat that... significant numbers of people are adamant... let me repeat that... adamant that SRR: DMS is quite obviously... let me repeat that... obviously not a cRPG...

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

So by your argument, the RPG ness of the game depends on someone not making a thread asking if a game is RPG. okay. carry on.

… so you imagine a world where specialist gaming forums don't categorise their games with great care and attention? Okay. Carry on...

 

[JarlFrank]

If you have no input then fuck off, this isn't a generic "what is an RPG thread", this is an "is Shadowrun Returns: Dead Man's Switch a cRPG".

Shadowrun Returns: Dead Man's Switch is a cRPG.

I know, you said that earlier but then bottled out of continuing the conversation when someone challenged your opinion of the reasoning. You can repeat yourself if you like, but why are you doing that?

I bottled out of the conversation because I went to sleep, and have only gone back on the Codex just now, and in-between that 5 pages of thread happened. I'm still working on turning myself into a lich to eliminate the need for sleep, but it's going to take a while yet.

My position still stands: it's a cRPG because it has all the basic elements of cRPGs. You create a character - stats, skills, appearance - and level up that character's abilities, affecting both combat and out-of-combat effectiveness (using decking to hack terminals, using etiquette skills in dialogue).
It is also directly based on a popular and long-established pen and paper ruleset, and recreates it relatively faithfully compared to some other P&P based games.
It has conversations with NPCs that have some minor choices based on your character skill (like skipping a fight by using an etiquette), so in the aspect of NPC interaction, this game has more RPG elements than the early Ultimas, the Wizardries, the Might and Magics.

Would you, by your definition, also call the Gold Box games "squad tactic games with stats"?

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

If you have no input then fuck off, this isn't a generic "what is an RPG thread", this is an "is Shadowrun Returns: Dead Man's Switch a cRPG".

Shadowrun Returns: Dead Man's Switch is a cRPG.

I know, you said that earlier but then bottled out of continuing the conversation when someone challenged your opinion of the reasoning. You can repeat yourself if you like, but why are you doing that?

I bottled out of the conversation because I went to sleep, and have only gone back on the Codex just now, and in-between that 5 pages of thread happened. I'm still working on turning myself into a lich to eliminate the need for sleep, but it's going to take a while yet.

My position still stands: it's a cRPG because it has all the basic elements of cRPGs. You create a character - stats, skills, appearance - and level up that character's abilities, affecting both combat and out-of-combat effectiveness (using decking to hack terminals, using etiquette skills in dialogue).
It is also directly based on a popular and long-established pen and paper ruleset, and recreates it relatively faithfully compared to some other P&P based games.
It has conversations with NPCs that have some minor choices based on your character skill (like skipping a fight by using an etiquette), so in the aspect of NPC interaction, this game has more RPG elements than the early Ultimas, the Wizardries, the Might and Magics.

Would you, by your definition, also call the Gold Box games "squad tactic games with stats"?

I'm not the expert on Gold Box games, I'd have to summon mondblut to get a more detailed answer for you there.

 

[JarlFrank]

Honestly, anyone who isn't familiar with the history of the genre and the classics that defined it isn't qualified to make any statements about whether a given game is or is not a cRPG.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I bottled out of the conversation because I went to sleep, and have only gone back on the Codex just now, and in-between that 5 pages of thread happened. I'm still working on turning myself into a lich to eliminate the need for sleep, but it's going to take a while yet.

My position still stands: it's a cRPG because it has all the basic elements of cRPGs. You create a character - stats, skills, appearance - and level up that character's abilities, affecting both combat and out-of-combat effectiveness (using decking to hack terminals, using etiquette skills in dialogue).
It is also directly based on a popular and long-established pen and paper ruleset, and recreates it relatively faithfully compared to some other P&P based games.
It has conversations with NPCs that have some minor choices based on your character skill (like skipping a fight by using an etiquette), so in the aspect of NPC interaction, this game has more RPG elements than the early Ultimas, the Wizardries, the Might and Magics.

Now, to the stuff I can answer, firstly, the codex has this great system whereby if you fall asleep and wake up later, the cookies preserve the point at which you stopped reading and when you go back to the thread you can start reading from the exact moment you left. You can find the reply to you almost right after your original post and simply press "reply" right there and continue the conversation, ain't that great! But then you knew that.

Yes, your position is that you've just repeated yourself: Character creation & levelling, NPC dialogues with occasional stat checks for minor differences in gameplay outcome & it comes from a P&P source.

Now, to me, that is obviously a weak display. If that's it, if that's all you need for your game to be RPG, then, as someone else has said, well, pretty much everything is an RPG. I mean, you could use almost the same explanation for apologising as to why God of War is an RPG. But I don't see you campaigning to have GoW threads in GRPG. So is it just the P&P roots that you find it hard to disentangle yourself from?