Company News Ken Levine shuts down Irrational Games

[SuicideBunny]

Also System Shock 2 isn't a RPG, even Avellone says so.

No worries. Neither are Alpha Protocol or DS3.

alpha protocol is an rpg by p. much all codex definitions, whether one likes the game or not.

it's that he's chosen to do this instead of SELLING it bio-doc style to a larger public company and making himself absurdly so-rich-that-even-though-he's-already-rich-the-post-sale-Levine-could-hire-the-pre-sale-Levine-as-his-butler.

to do that he'd have to buy it back from take two first.

 

[FeelTheRads]

If Alpha Protocol is an RPG then so are visual novels.
Must be THAT standard you're talking about.

 

[Excidium]

Check this out, Something can be a shitty RPG

Weird concept I know, in a place where people suck up to mediocrity.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm pretty sure Cleve was being facetious about the Levine thing.

It is actually an Irish name too though (pronounced differently I think)

 

[Dokkalfar]

What's ironic is that in an AAA industry collapsing, where cinematic games are becoming openly mocked, where niche turn-based CRPG's are all over Kickstarter, that the ole RPG Codex is going in the complete opposite direction - rubbish about South Park and some Skyrim clone all over the front page news, threads about Mass Effect and Dark Souls getting more posts and regular activity than any discussion of classic CRPGs.

It's a real karma system in work here, incline in RPGs, decline in RPG Codex. A few years ago this board would of been taking off their knickers and on their backs for the mention of a resurgence of traditional CRPGs, now this board is chest-high in edgy shitposters, professional contrarians, or just people that don't even play or like RPGs - but just like shitposting about them.

Check this out, Something can be a shitty RPG

Weird concept I know, in a place where people suck up to mediocrity.

It's called taking what's available, instead of some hypothetical vision of a "perfect RPG".

 

[FeelTheRads]

Check this out, Something can be a shitty RPG

I see. In that case pretty much any game will be an RPG. A really, really shitty one, but hey an RPG, right?
SS2 would be a pretty crappy RPG, too. But definitely an RPG.

Weird concept I know, in a place where people suck up to mediocrity.

Yeah, we don't all have exquisite, non-nostalgic tastes like yourself. Would be great if you could share your enlightenment with us, though, so we can all know what are the REALLY good RPGs.

 

[Kz3r0]

Major layoffs happen all the time for stupid reasons. You don't like it, vote Communist.

This isn't even a reason. It's like if the execs at BP said "I'm tired of managing this oil stuff, lets start a bake shop" and promptly fired 99% of their employees. Assuming Irrational is profitable there's no good reason not to simply hire someone else to do the job making AAA-derp bioshocks while Ken Levine goes off and does whatever he likes.

Wrong, if making next-gen AAA+ games requires such huge investements that put the existence of the studio at stake with a perspective of verynarrow margin profits changing business model is the only sensible thing to do instead of risking enormous losses.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Check this out, Something can be a shitty RPG

I see. In that case pretty much any game will be an RPG. A really, really shitty one, but hey an RPG, right?
SS2 would be a pretty crappy RPG, too. But definitely an RPG.

Weird concept I know, in a place where people suck up to mediocrity.

Yeah, we don't all have exquisite, non-nostalgic tastes like yourself. Would be great if you could share your enlightenment with us, though, so we can all know what are the REALLY good RPGs.

How about you share your enlightenment with us, instead? I'm still waiting

 

[Infinitron]

What's ironic is that in an AAA industry collapsing, where cinematic games are becoming openly mocked, where niche turn-based CRPG's are all over Kickstarter, that the ole RPG Codex is going in the complete opposite direction - rubbish about South Park and some Skyrim clone all over the front page news, threads about Mass Effect and Dark Souls getting more posts and regular activity than any discussion of classic CRPGs.

It's a real karma system in work here, incline in RPGs, decline in RPG Codex. A few years ago this board would of been taking off their knickers and on their backs for the mention of a resurgence of traditional CRPGs, now this board is chest-high in edgy shitposters, professional contrarians, or just people that don't even play or like RPGs - but just like shitposting about them.

They're not the only ones being edgy though.

Part of the Codex's strength is that we're not just a band of myopic RPG nostalgists. Broadening our horizons is part of what's allowed this forum to thrive even when the genre it was dedicated to seemed to be completely dead.

We're not just RPG fans here, we're people who have a complete worldview on gaming at large. When you don't have that, you get, for example, people like Invictus who like blobbers but are otherwise extremely popamole. Is the guy who likes oldschool RPGs but also thinks Call of Duty 4 is the best shooter ever (because he doesn't know anything about shooters) really somebody to look up to? I say no.

Paying attention to what the industry at large is doing is important...and as a bonus, laughing at their misfortunes (yes, even if it creates 300 page long threads) is extremely amusing.

 

[m_s0]

To make narrative-driven games for the core gamer that are highly replayable.

That description sounds a little like

That's what I'd like to think, but this coming from a AAA dev probably means we'll get something along the lines of Heavy Rain or The Walking Dead. I can't say I'm excited about that prospect.

Nothing stopped Levine from leaving with a few people and letting someone else run the joint.

actually a lot stopping levine from doing that. most importantly the fact that irrational has been owned by take two for the last seven or so years and considering how they have been shuffled, split and renamed over those 7 years, this smells of glorious leader taking blame for corporate restructuring and even if it weren't he's prolly bound by a contract that prevents him from working on games for a few years should he leave out of his own volition.

...the fuck?

 

[Infinitron]

...the fuck?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause

Biodocs probably have it too.

 

[Infinitron]

Speaking of Bioshock and South Park: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/..._of_comfort_zone_with_new_South_Park_game.php

Q&A: BioShock 2 creative lead jumps out of comfort zone with new South Park game

Jordan Thomas has been helping to build atmospheric, "immersive simulations" for over 10 years -- he was the lead designer of Thief: Deadly Shadows, and went on to work on all threeBioshock games before departing Irrational Games to form his own independent studio last year.

Lately, his work doesn't have that same kind of dark, immersive simulation design that he's most familiar with. Most recently, Thomas served as a creative consultant on Obisidian Entertainment's comedic RPG South Park and the Stick of Truth, due to release next month.

Gamasutra sat down with Thomas during a recent Ubisoft press event to learn more about his work on the game and the challenges he faced in trying to create opportunities for comedy in a medium where the creator must cede some level of control to the player.

How have the skills you’ve acquired in your time in the industry been brought to bear on this project? It doesn’t seem, at first blush, like the kind of thing that you’ve worked on in the past.

No, that’s actually what attracted me to it! I think I’ve atrophied inside my comfort zone. I always wanted to work on a pure RPG, and Stick of Truth is that.

As far as how my time on the immersive simulations, for lack of a better term, applies to Stick: First thing was, I pushed really hard for more combinatorial use of the player tools -- [that is,] the ability for players to be creative by combining tools in ways that the designer selected in order to open a field of play, and also the Deus Ex-y sort, in which there are multiple paths within a denser dungeon-like environment.

So early in the game, you’ll make it to what we call a dungeon -- a more intense narrative experience with a greater density of combat. Within those environments I pushed very hard for you to be able to say, “Okay, I like this path better” -- offering an alternate path through the vents, if you know what I mean, versus the standard path. The level of magic in the world is a function of the boys’ reality-warping play, and the magic unlocks more and more paths, and the hope is that you feel like a partial author of the experience, instead of just solving an adventure game-style puzzle in the manner the designer intended.

I’m not a big fan of lock-and-key design, and so the notion that there might be any analog space there at all is hugely important to me. It was the first thing that I asked about.

 

[Dokkalfar]

What's ironic is that in an AAA industry collapsing, where cinematic games are becoming openly mocked, where niche turn-based CRPG's are all over Kickstarter, that the ole RPG Codex is going in the complete opposite direction - rubbish about South Park and some Skyrim clone all over the front page news, threads about Mass Effect and Dark Souls getting more posts and regular activity than any discussion of classic CRPGs.

It's a real karma system in work here, incline in RPGs, decline in RPG Codex. A few years ago this board would of been taking off their knickers and on their backs for the mention of a resurgence of traditional CRPGs, now this board is chest-high in edgy shitposters, professional contrarians, or just people that don't even play or like RPGs - but just like shitposting about them.

Is the guy who likes oldschool RPGs but also thinks Call of Duty 4 is the best shooter ever (because he doesn't know anything about shooters) really somebody to look up to? I say no.

Is the guy who says they like oldschool RPGs but also will day-1 purchase South Park or kickstarter Deliverance really someone to look up to? Or the person who thinks popamole shooters with RPG elements like Alpha Protocol are "good for what they are".

 

[Excidium]

Check this out, Something can be a shitty RPG

I see. In that case pretty much any game will be an RPG. A really, really shitty one, but hey an RPG, right?
SS2 would be a pretty crappy RPG, too. But definitely an RPG.

Indeed. Not too long ago I said it wasn't, but at this point I don't give a shit anymore. Which videogame is and which isn't a RPG is a p. damn pointless debate. I've seen games from other genres that (unintentionally) did a better job at adapting aspects of RPG to a computer format (which is the whole fucking point of a CRPG genre) than "legit" CRPGs which have been stuck recycling their own limited shit for a long while now.

Weird concept I know, in a place where people suck up to mediocrity.

Yeah, we don't all have exquisite, non-nostalgic tastes like yourself. Would be great if you could share your enlightenment with us, though, so we can all know what are the REALLY good RPGs.

There are some CRPGs which are p. good for their time. I think I voted on some obvious ones in the latest top list.

 

[Infinitron]

Is the guy who says they like oldschool RPGs but also will day-1 purchase South Park or kickstarter Deliverance really someone to look up to?

If he's a fan of those genres (JRPGs and open world action RPGs, respectively), then possibly yes. If he's a fan of those genres and ALSO thinks they're better than or have somehow supplanted old-school RPGs, then no.

 

[m_s0]

...the fuck?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause

Biodocs probably have it too.

Yeah, I suppose it does make some sense. Just goes to show you I'm not fit for corporate "thinking".

 

[RK47]

I always wanted to work on a pure RPG, and Stick of Truth is that.

I lost it

 

[Monty]

Is the guy who likes oldschool RPGs but also thinks Call of Duty 4 is the best shooter ever (because he doesn't know anything about shooters) really somebody to look up to? I say no.

Is the guy who says they like oldschool RPGs but also will day-1 purchase South Park or kickstarter Deliverance really someone to look up to? Or the person who thinks popamole shooters with RPG elements like Alpha Protocol are "good for what they are".

I think it's right that there are threads about KC and South Park in the news forum (neither of which I have any intention of buying), not least so those who dislike them can make that clear and debate with the fanboys. Should we just pretend they don't exist and only have threads on AOD? That sounds pretty boring.

Games like POE, Torment and Wasteland 2 get the most coverage anyway. Do you have some sort of approved list of RPGs that warrant mention by Infinitron?

Oh, and good work on this sentence :"now this board is chest-high in edgy shitposters, professional contrarians"

 

[Jasede]

Do you guys have the memory of a cat, the ones optimistic about this?

Remember when Ken Levine said basically the exact same things and then made Bioshock? It was nothing like what he claimed it would be. Worse, it was actually trite. I won't deny it was pretty but it was still nothing like what we hoped or expected.

 

[Dokkalfar]

Is the guy who likes oldschool RPGs but also thinks Call of Duty 4 is the best shooter ever (because he doesn't know anything about shooters) really somebody to look up to? I say no.

Is the guy who says they like oldschool RPGs but also will day-1 purchase South Park or kickstarter Deliverance really someone to look up to? Or the person who thinks popamole shooters with RPG elements like Alpha Protocol are "good for what they are".

I think it's right that there are threads about KC and South Park in the news forum (neither of which I have any intention of buying), not least so those who dislike them can make that clear and debate with the fanboys. Should we just pretend they don't exist and only have threads on AOD? That sounds pretty boring.

I thought this was a site dedicated to computer roeplaying games, am I mistaken? I dunno, if I wanted generalized news on RPGs I could go to any news source for video games.

 

[SuicideBunny]

If Alpha Protocol is an RPG then so are visual novels.
Must be THAT standard you're talking about.

it has improvable stats. they don't just affect character efficiency but also ability. different distributions of said stats play differently. the stats, and this is very important, affect stuff outside of combat, most importantly dialogue choices that lead to different consequences. it has a substantial amount of c&c.
saying it's not an rpg just because you don't like it or the fact that the rpg parts are riding on top of a popamole shooter doesn't change the facts.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

Levine, is that Irish? I am trying to tag something to the name with association so I will remember what a bastard he is.

Levine was born in Flushing, New York to a Jewish family, though he considers himself an atheist.

I was joking when I asked if that was an irish name. Levi is the original root family name of almost all ashkenaz. That is probably the name given to them by the rabbi who converted them when they were Khazars. The Khazars didn't just want a new religion, they took new names as part of their identity change. You don't just go for a false ID when you want to slip across borders, you go for a false birth certificate and all the trimmings. It is not a change of religion that they were really interested in anyway. Notice like 75% of his tribe he is actually an atheist anyway. Religion has nothing to do with it for these guys. Nothing. It might have well been Zoroastrianism if that had the most appeal to the rubes they would soon be introducing themselves to.

Notice how 3/4s of all Ashkenaz have almost no interest in religion whatsoever and are particularly not the least bit interested in Judaism.

 

[Dokkalfar]

If Alpha Protocol is an RPG then so are visual novels.
Must be THAT standard you're talking about.

it has improvable stats. they don't just affect character efficiency but also ability. different distributions of said stats play differently. the stats, and this is very important, affect stuff outside of combat, most importantly dialogue choices that lead to different consequences. it has a substantial amount of c&c.
saying it's not an rpg just because you don't like it or the fact that the rpg parts are riding on top of a popamole shooter doesn't change the facts.

It's not an RPG, it's a TPS with RPG elements, same way New Vegas is a FPS with RPG elements, but not a pure RPG by any stretch, it's a hybrid game.

That being said, one could argue quite rightly Baldur's Gate and it's spawn are not RPGs either, but RTS-RPG hybrids, and the only RPGs are those with turn-based/phase-based combat based off dice rolls with stat modifiers, or at least a system which is derived or directly adapted from a tabletop RPG.

The real problem is that the term "RPG" has become too broad and thrown around too much, in comparison to the 80's or early 90's when the entire basis for CRPG's was derivative of their tabletop parent. Any real resurgence of the CRPG means getting back to that mentality - meaning getting away from more shitty hybrids.

 

[Fireblade]

You've buried the lead on this story. The issue isn't that Ken Levine is winding down Irrational - it's that he's chosen to do this instead of SELLING it bio-doc style to a larger public company and making himself absurdly so-rich-that-even-though-he's-already-rich-the-post-sale-Levine-could-hire-the-pre-sale-Levine-as-his-butler. Really goddamn amazingly rich. Biodocs rich.

Usually that's the 'I win' button for any start up - once you're bought out, you get to stay on as manager of your old place, often on an even larger salary than what you used to pay yourself. You get what you were earning already PLUS a truckload of money for selling your company AND the best part is that now you're completely insulated from any risk. It's why the Bio-docs won bigtime - like they fucking gave a shit whether the ME or TOR were going to work out for EA, they'd made their $$$ by selling Bioware at its peak-IP value, and were justing waiting down the clock for their 2-year contracts to finish up so they could get a golden handshake on top of it all.

It sounds like you aren't at all aware that all of this already happened back in 2006 when Levine & co sold Irrational to Take-Two/2K Games?

 

[SuicideBunny]

It's not an RPG, it's a TPS with RPG elements, same way New Vegas is a FPS with RPG elements, but not a pure RPG by any stretch, it's a hybrid game.

it can either be a hybrid, in which case no matter whether it is a shooter or whatever else it also is an rpg or it can be a shooter with rpg elements. the distinction is the amount and importance of rpg mechanics and how integrated they are into the other systems present.