MOTB ending

[WanderingThrough2]

I'm not even sure what the point we're debating is. As I understood it, the question was whether, as set up in MOTB, the Wall of the Faithless was a moral outrage. I don't think it is because I think it's ludicrously easy to avoid ending up there without making any significant ideological or personal sacrifices. The only people who end up there--barring those genuinely ignorant of the Gods--are those who, in spite of the miracles and blessings around them every day, persist in rejecting the higher powers. I don't think those are sympathetic folk. And they are not "atheists" or rationalists.

Your argument seems to have rambled through several different positions. These include:

(1) Even if there are higher beings with their own planes of existence who perform miracles every day around you, it's reasonable to reject their godliness. My response: No, it's not reasonable. In that case, the rational thing to do is respect their enormous power and accept that they set the rules for the world you're in, as is manifested every day around you.

(2) Religion in the FR setting is comparable to religion in the real world, and anyone who thinks irreligious people in FR are silly must be a bigot. My response: This is absurd on its face, but in any event, the reason why atheism is defensible in the real world is that there is no evidence of God, which is also the reason why religion is dubious. The situation is completely reversed in FR. Atheism--the belief in no gods--is nonsensical in that setting.

(3) The Wall of the Faithless impairs player's choices because players will be intimidated into not playing irreligious characters for fear of the Wall. (?) My response: This is nonsensical because, first of all, it has no practical consequences on the player's experience and, second, it is just another form of consequences for a player to deal with. It's like saying, "Having law enforcement in cities in the FR is unfair because it makes it harder to play a reckless thief."

(4) People should not worship the Gods in the FR setting because those Gods are fickle and full of personality flaws; therefore, the Gods in the FR setting should not punish those who do not worship them, since not worshiping them is a reasonable thing to do, even though this would result in the Gods losing their power and dying. My response: Where there are no concrete benefits to worship, the only reason for doing so is respect. But the Gods of the FR don't ask for worship because they're flawless, they ask for it as part of quid-pro-quo exchange that involves enormous blessings. Worship in FR is like paying taxes in real life. Even if you don't love the government, you pay for it because you get benefits from having it around. And punishing those who don't worship in FR is like punishing those who object to paying taxes: it's a totally rational thing for the government to do, and probably, on balance, fair, except when a government is totally reprehensible.

Plus, if belief was all it took, then rather than a god's power being dependent on the number of his faithful, he would draw power from everyone who believes that he exists, whether they follow other gods or not. Which is not the case: gods need people who think of them as "patron deities."

Which flatly contradicts the explanation of how Myrkul is using the Spirit Eater to stay alive.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

Because if there's one thing that's clear from Kaelyn, it's that she should be trusted to provide accurate an unbiased information about the Wall. Rolling Eyes

So you doubt the info presented in the game? But you also said:

But here I thought we were debating the merits of the Wall of the Faithless as depicted in MOTB.

Did anyone other than Kaelyn tell you that? I think we should restrict ourselves to what the game tells us, but that doesn't mean credulously believing every assertion of the characters in the game.

And Gann's refusal to worship the Gods stemmed pretty clearly from his egoism/egotism, even if it had its initial

How is the wall fair for them?

I don't think I said the Wall was fair. I just don't think it's a moral outrage. I agree it probably would be better, in the case of the purely ignorant, to just send them instantly to oblivion.

 

[Korgan]

How should confrontation with Kelemvor look like:

PC: Die Kelemvor! You don't belong in this world!
K: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
PC: Tribute? You steal men's souls, and make them your wall!
K: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
PC: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill-needs a savior such as you!
K: What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk...have at you!

Thanks. Suddenly MOTB's ending and lack of the option of destroying the wall don't seem so bad. It could always be worse. They could've done what you suggest!

How should confrontation with Kelemvor look like:

PC: Die Kelemvor! You don't belong in this world!
K: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
PC: Tribute? You steal men's souls, and make them your wall!
K: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
PC: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill-needs a savior such as you!
K: What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk...have at you!

... and it would instantly go to the 'worst dialogues in RPG history' thread where it belongs.

This. That's some shitty dialogue.

You people who say that Kelemvor cannot kill the spirit eater. Remember the start of motb? You wake up in Okku's barrow inside a couple of wards planted by a mortal wizard to store the spirit eater there. Don't you think Kelemvor could just, you know, get a set of wards that would be even more powerful than the ones set by the wizard, teleport you there in a blink of an eye, and probably make sure that this time no red wizard comes by to make matters complicated?

How should confrontation with Kelemvor look like:

PC: Die Kelemvor! You don't belong in this world!
K: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
PC: Tribute? You steal men's souls, and make them your wall!
K: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
PC: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill-needs a savior such as you!
K: What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk...have at you!

... and it would instantly go to the 'worst dialogues in RPG history' thread where it belongs.

Eh eh-eh eh eh eh-eh!

You are not a good troll, fuckhead. It's just the decline.

 

[BearBomber]

(4) People should not worship the Gods in the FR setting because those Gods are fickle and full of personality flaws; therefore, the Gods in the FR setting should not punish those who do not worship them, since not worshiping them is a reasonable thing to do, even though this would result in the Gods losing their power and dying. My response: Where there are no concrete benefits to worship, the only reason for doing so is respect. But the Gods of the FR don't ask for worship because they're flawless, they ask for it as part of quid-pro-quo exchange that involves enormous blessings. Worship in FR is like paying taxes in real life. Even if you don't love the government, you pay for it because you get benefits from having it around. And punishing those who don't worship in FR is like punishing those who object to paying taxes: it's a totally rational thing for the government to do, and probably, on balance, fair, except when a government is totally reprehensible.

So gods will leave you alone and give you some power if you worship them and punish you if you don't. So what is the difference between them and some random mad dictator of evil overlord? They seem to be more like a parasites than a goodlike beings.

 

[trais]

(1) Even if there are higher beings with their own planes of existence who perform miracles every day around you, it's reasonable to reject their godliness. My response: No, it's not reasonable. In that case, the rational thing to do is respect their enormous power and accept that they set the rules for the world you're in, as is manifested every day around you.

Because when someone is bullying you, it's rational to accept that and respect him, just because he's stronger. You sir, are a fucking sheep with no backbone.

(4) People should not worship the Gods in the FR setting because those Gods are fickle and full of personality flaws; therefore, the Gods in the FR setting should not punish those who do not worship them, since not worshiping them is a reasonable thing to do, even though this would result in the Gods losing their power and dying. My response: Where there are no concrete benefits to worship, the only reason for doing so is respect. But the Gods of the FR don't ask for worship because they're flawless, they ask for it as part of quid-pro-quo exchange that involves enormous blessings.

Wrong, gods in FR demands to worship them, because without worshipers they're dead. "Faith" to them is like oxygen to us. Blessings are only means to attract more followers.

Worship in FR is like paying taxes in real life. Even if you don't love the government, you pay for it because you get benefits from having it around. And punishing those who don't worship in FR is like punishing those who object to paying taxes: it's a totally rational thing for the government to do,

That's wrong on so many levels I don't know where to begin.
Yeah, men are born in shackles and therefore it's natural for them to pay tribute to their masters. What kind of socialist's bullshit is that? And when mafia comes to you and want you to pay them for "protection" is it ok thing to pay them? You definitely ain't Spartacus material, but that doesn't mean that others ain't or at least doesn't want to roleplay such person.

and probably, on balance, fair, except when a government is totally reprehensible.

It would be fair, if you had a choice. But you don't.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Did anyone other than Kaelyn tell you that? I think we should restrict ourselves to what the game tells us, but that doesn't mean credulously believing every assertion of the characters in the game.

Why would you doubt Kaelyn? There isn't a shred of evidence or even implied evidence in the game that she was lying about anything she told you. Hell, her entire motivation rests upon her believing what she tells you. And If she had lied, don't you think that somebody (Kelemvor or Myrkul) would have called her on it? This entire line of reasoning just looks to me like you are trying to discredit what Kaelyn tells you about the wall because you don't like what she's telling you.

And Gann's refusal to worship the Gods stemmed pretty clearly from his egoism/egotism, even if it had its initial

Gann initially had no idea about the whole concept. And I suspect that he would be far from alone in this in the FR setting.

I don't think I said the Wall was fair. I just don't think it's a moral outrage. I agree it probably would be better, in the case of the purely ignorant, to just send them instantly to oblivion.

Right. You just said it only seems unfair. And I think it would be better for gods to leave the faithless to the fate they had in 2ed dnd (before the wall was introduced) - after death they were transported to a plane depending of their alignment. At least I think it worked this way (somebody with better knowledge of dnd can correct me if necessary).

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

Because when someone is bullying you, it's rational to accept that and respect him, just because he's stronger. You sir, are a fucking sheep with no backbone.

Option 1 : Do some stuff in this life to get better afterlife.
Option 2 : Oblivion.
(Option 3 : Become immortal.)

Whatever suits you. That it isn't in your power to change it doesn't make it some kind of a bullshit moral outrage, unless your morals are "Everything should be as I want it to be".

That's wrong on so many levels I don't know where to begin.
Yeah, men are born in shackles and therefore it's natural for them to pay tribute to their masters. What kind of socialist's bullshit is that? And when mafia comes to you and want you to pay them for "protection" is it ok thing to pay them? You definitely ain't Spartacus material, but that doesn't mean that others ain't or at least doesn't want to roleplay such person.

Whatever suits you. You are completely free to defy the mafia and get your kneecaps removed. Men are born in shackles, and do whatever they can to get rid of them - but strangling yourself with the chains might not be the best of options.

and probably, on balance, fair, except when a government is totally reprehensible.

It would be fair, if you had a choice. But you don't.

You are usually free to move somewhere else if you don't like it.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

Why would you doubt Kaelyn? There isn't a shred of evidence or even implied evidence in the game that she was lying about anything she told you.

Kaelyn herself says she cannot see shades of gray. She is painfully easy to bluff and buys any line anyone tries to sell her, as long as it falls within her vision of the universe. Asking me why I don't believe what she has to tell me is like asking me why I don't get my information about geology from Creationists: they will tell me with utmost sincerity and total confidence a line of cock-and-bull because, above all, that's what they want to believe.

Kaelyn decided the Wall is wrong. After that decision, I suspect she heard and saw everything through that lens.

Right. You just said it only seems unfair. And I think it would be better for gods to leave the faithless to the fate they had in 2ed dnd (before the wall was introduced) - after death they were transported to a plane depending of their alignment.

What claim to an afterlife do those who reject the arbiters of the afterlife have? It would be great if Toyota would give me a free Lexus even though I go around demanding that people Buy American, but I hardly think I should bitch about it if they leave me with my shitty Pontiac.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Kaelyn herself says she cannot see shades of gray. She is painfully easy to bluff and buys any line anyone tries to sell her, as long as it falls within her vision of the universe. Asking me why I don't believe what she has to tell me is like asking me why I don't get my information about geology from Creationists: they will tell me with utmost sincerity and total confidence a line of cock-and-bull because, above all, that's what they want to believe.

Kaelyn decided the Wall is wrong. After that decision, I suspect she heard and saw everything through that lens.

And again, neither Kelemvor nor Myrkul say that she is lying. Myrkul mocks her by telling her that gods don't care about justice. Kelemvor calls the wall injustice outright and only necessary to avoid "greater evil" (that being the gods throwing a fit).

I found what Kaelyn acctualy has to say about this:
"To comfort a dying child, knowing it is destined to scream eternally in an ever living wall. A midwife of the Planes who has never heard of such a thing as gods, entire plane of seawives who farm the sea and seed the ocean to bring about life... to know that they are bound to become stones in the wall of a faithless citadel, crushed together by dogma and ritual that has never once been reflected upon."

Note that she is speaking from experience as a former doomguide of Kelemvor: she has seen this and then decided to start a crusade. Nobody sold her anything.

What claim to an afterlife do those who reject the arbiters of the afterlife have? It would be great if Toyota would give me a free Lexus even though I go around demanding that people Buy American, but I hardly think I should bitch about it if they leave me with my shitty Pontiac.

Unless you worshiped one, afterlife in 2ed dnd had nothing to do with gods. This is simply the way the universe worked in the setting. So what you call "gods" I call parasites that hijacked the afterlife of mortals.

 

[trais]

Option 1 : Do some stuff in this life to get better afterlife.

Or else. It's not a fair deal, it's an extortion - a bad thing.

Option 2 : Oblivion.

After being chewed up by wall - a bad thing too.

(Option 3 : Become immortal.)

Or better, become god yourself. But this has nothing to do with what we're talking here about.

Whatever suits you. You are completely free to defy the mafia and get your kneecaps removed.

Sure. But when you pay them, don't go around telling anyone that you're clever little fellow 'cause you gained their "protection" and it cost you only a little money.

Men are born in shackles, and do whatever they can to get rid of them - but strangling yourself with the chains might not be the best of options.

Because fighting for your freedom is lame and stupid, especially when you can be spoon-fed by some arbitrary authority figure. Is life of a cattle good enough for you?

You are usually free to move somewhere else if you don't like it.

Not in FR.

 

[hiver]

When i played i didnt manage to beat Akachi and get to the ending itself because i made a bad build.

Now im glad i didnt and i wont be trying to play MOTB again.

I completely agree with those that say that tearing down the wall should be an option or at least trying to.

The whole game was set up as EPIC from the get go and now in the end the EPIC ending is taken away completely from me although i spent whole game hearing how fucked up the wall really is? Just so it doesnt feel EPIC?

Fuck that logic with a hot poker up the ass, as far as im concerned.

 

[BearBomber]

Option 1 : Do some stuff in this life to get better afterlife.

Or else. It's not a fair deal, it's an extortion - a bad thing.

Option 2 : Oblivion.

After being chewed up by wall - a bad thing too.

(Option 3 : Become immortal.)

Or better, become god yourself. But this has nothing to do with what we're talking here about.

Whatever suits you. You are completely free to defy the mafia and get your kneecaps removed.

Sure. But when you pay them, don't go around telling anyone that you're clever little fellow 'cause you gained their "protection" and it cost you only a little money.

Men are born in shackles, and do whatever they can to get rid of them - but strangling yourself with the chains might not be the best of options.

Because fighting for your freedom is lame and stupid, especially when you can be spoon-fed by some arbitrary authority figure. Is life of a cattle good enough for you?

You are usually free to move somewhere else if you don't like it.

Not in FR.