MOTB ending

[Zomg]

Hmm, interesting. What was your reasoning? "It's a necessary evil"?

It was a Lawful Neutral cleric going with the "devil you know" principle, basically. If you imagine a "universe" where absolutely everything really is created by belief, the fact that there is a relatively peaceful stable state at all is precious. It worked out really well narratively because I hadn't picked up all three mask pieces and the character had to stay watching over the wall for eternity, so he ended up having to personally endure even more than what he was forcing on others.

That's me not knowing the FR lore at all, so it could be that Myrkul made the wall three years ago on a whim and I was just stupidly assuming it was an important deal.

 

[Lesifoere]

I'm not sure exactly how D&D works, so someone might correct me. But it was always my understanding that while bringing down the wall would not undo the planes or whatever, the Gods *would* wreak terrible vengeance if people stopped worshipping them. The D&D gods always seemed really touchy to me.
That said, change has to start somewhere.

No-o, it's my understanding that bringing down the walls would erode the incentive to worship a god, any god, because being agnostic/atheistic will no longer be punished. Thus, the gods are afraid that their followers will dwindle, and as their power is directly proportional to the quantity of worshipers, they will diminish as the non-religious grow in number. Which is obviously something the gods wouldn't like.

Fuck's sake, why don't people get this through their heads? Spirit-eater != THE MOST POWERFUL CHOSEN WAN EVAH.

PC: :: If I am such a monster, then destroy me, god of the dead. Or is that beyond your power? ::
Kelemvor: To destroy an empty thing? Yes, that is beyond the power of any god... else the spirit-eater would have been struck down at its birth.

If Kelemvor destroys the PC, the curse continues and finds a new host, as far as I recall. So while Kelemvor would rather not, in theory he should have no trouble taking apart one puny mortal.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Hmm, interesting. What was your reasoning? "It's a necessary evil"?

You mean the whole issue about the wall? Well, to put it this way, I didn't really care about the wall in the first place. My 'motivation' in motb was to end the curse, not to bring down gods and turn the planes upside down, and what I liked was that it was also perfectly doable from the character's perspective, because you don't really have to 'larp' not giving a shit, since there's no two-sided choice bestowed upon you: 'Bring down wall, yes/no?'. Hell, I didn't even have Kaelyn in my party, and my interaction with her was limited to the first dialogue in the Dead God's Vault.

To put it another way, I haven't started any second crusade. I was not Akachi II.

 

[Raapys]

If Kelemvor destroys the PC, the curse continues and finds a new host, as far as I recall. So while Kelemvor would rather not, in theory he should have no trouble taking apart one puny mortal.

Actually, the PC becomes the Spirit Eater incarnate, i.e. not just a host for it anymore. That's how it eventually becomes supremely powerful, forcing the gods to go against it in union, with several of them actually dying in the attempt( which is also unsuccessful). So yes, the Spirit Eater basically becomes the most powerful single being ever.

You can have a look at the ultimate evil ending here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsUwihtGDM0

 

[DriacKin]

Hmm, interesting. What was your reasoning? "It's a necessary evil"?

In the encounter with Kelemvor at the end of the game, you can ask him why he doesn't want the wall to be taken down. He essentially says that taking down the wall is going to piss off all of the other gods, forcing the other gods to take vengeance upon the mortals. I liked his explanation, and agreed that the taking down the wall would probably lead to problems far worse than the wall.

 

[Korgan]

Hmm, interesting. What was your reasoning? "It's a necessary evil"?

In the encounter with Kelemvor at the end of the game, you can ask him why he doesn't want the wall to be taken down. He essentially says that taking down the wall is going to piss off all of the other gods, forcing the other gods to take vengeance upon the mortals. I liked his explanation, and agreed that the taking down the wall would probably lead to problems far worse than the wall.

So you just ignore the suffering of innocents because someone old and powerful told you that the world is like this and meddling will only make things worse? How very RL. Fuck, Obsidian's writers are outstanding.

 

[Balthamael]

In the encounter with Kelemvor at the end of the game, you can ask him why he doesn't want the wall to be taken down. He essentially says that taking down the wall is going to piss off all of the other gods, forcing the other gods to take vengeance upon the mortals. I liked his explanation, and agreed that the taking down the wall would probably lead to problems far worse than the wall.

That explanation rang so hollow to me. Is the existence and purpose of the wall even widely known in the realms, or wherever. How many people knows or cares that they are supposed to be faithful sheeple or evil wall will come and eat them? I certainly hadn't heard of the structure before Kaelyn told me about it. Not that I, or my character, had particularly studied planes lore. I'd wager the same is true to the significant majority of the people. Doesn't seem the wall serves much purpose beyond Myrkul being a dick, really.

By Kelemvor's explanation, the gods sound like schoolyard bullies. Kelemvor himself, now that he's been accepted into the cool kids' club, comes off as too concerned of how other gods will view him to do what is right.

Yeah, my characters generally don't take well being threatened.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

The whole idea that people would be atheists in a world where gods tramp around doing shit every day is so preposterous that I can't feel too bad for the folks who wind up stuck in the Wall. The story leverages the fact that there're perfectly legitimate reasons to be atheists in our world, and suggests it would be outrageous if those folks wound up suffering forever because of their skepticism. But the atheists stuck in the Wall are like young-earthers in our world who die of radiation poisoning because they don't believe in half-life decay. Would I feel bad for their suffering? Sure. Should the world be upended so that their nonsensical beliefs can be humored? Surely not.

 

[Zero Credibility]

That explanation rang so hollow to me. Is the existence and purpose of the wall even widely known in the realms, or wherever. How many people knows or cares that they are supposed to be faithful sheeple or evil wall will come and eat them? I certainly hadn't heard of the structure before Kaelyn told me about it. Not that I, or my character, had particularly studied planes lore. I'd wager the same is true to the significant majority of the people. Doesn't seem the wall serves much purpose beyond Myrkul being a dick, really.

By Kelemvor's explanation, the gods sound like schoolyard bullies. Kelemvor himself, now that he's been accepted into the cool kids' club, comes off as too concerned of how other gods will view him to do what is right.

Yeah, my characters generally don't take well being threatened.

I thought pretty much the same. It is debatable if the wall actually increases the numbers of truly faithful. Do those that pay lip service to gods out of fear of the wall count as believers? I don't see how anyone could become a "true" believer because of the wall.

Also, the universe functioned just fine before Myrkul created the wall and it would work just as fine without it. Gods are really just being dicks here.

 

[Erebus]

The whole idea that people would be atheists in a world where gods tramp around doing shit every day is so preposterous that I can't feel too bad for the folks who wind up stuck in the Wall.

Not actively worshipping a god is enough to end up in the Wall, you don't have to actually be an atheist.

 

[Lesifoere]

Mm, it's more that there are people out there who don't think of gods as gods, but as very powerful outsiders. Scary, sure. Capable of bringing down the sky, yeah. But are they worth worshiping--do they deserve faith and devotion?

Believing in them and knowing that they exist are very different things, and surely you can see the distinction. To bring up an example, a non-religious mage can go throughout his entire life requiring very little from a local temple or whatever. If he's sensible, he probably won't try to pull a Karsus and take Mystra's place (and Karsus is a good example, actually: when you want to try and usurp a goddess' place, you don't believe in her divinity--you think it's just another mantle of power, and as it happens, it is: see Ariel Manx ascending to become Mystra) or mess with any gods, but it doesn't mean he will pray to them or give them tribute, either.

Also, the universe functioned just fine before Myrkul created the wall and it would work just as fine without it. Gods are really just being dicks here.

Well, yes. FR gods are dicks. Actually, they're children, if you go by all the novels and such--squabbling, screaming children who are all MEMEMEME. Any mortal who knows what they're really like wouldn't want to worship them much, I imagine.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

Believing in them and knowing that they exist are very different things,

Put that way, I think the distinction runs the other way. It is possible to believe in something you don't know exists -- that's what religious people in the real world do. But to not believe in something you do know exists, that's irrational.

But I think you mean "worship them" rather than "believe in them." I guess in that case, it's a vaguely defensible position, but, geez, still pretty goofy. There are extraordinarily powerful beings that rule over planes of existence and dictate the terms of the afterlife. To say they are just "powerful outsiders" is semantics, no?

I wasn't aware that the rule was that you had to be devoted to a god to avoid going to the Wall, but even if that were so, there's such a cornucopia to choose from, it's hard to see the Faithless as anything more than petulant children.

 

[Zero Credibility]

I wasn't aware that the rule was that you had to be devoted to a god to avoid going to the Wall, but even if that were so, there's such a cornucopia to choose from, it's hard to see the Faithless as anything more than petulant children.

Yes, there are many of them, but they all behave like complete jerks, and it is hard to worship a jerk. So paradoxically, the more you know about gods in FR the greater are the chances that you wouldn't want to worship any of them and thus end up in the wall.

Also, didn't Kaelyn say something about inhabitants of a world where gods are a complete unknown but that end up in the wall just the same? Or is my memory failing me here?

 

[DriacKin]

In the encounter with Kelemvor at the end of the game, you can ask him why he doesn't want the wall to be taken down. He essentially says that taking down the wall is going to piss off all of the other gods, forcing the other gods to take vengeance upon the mortals. I liked his explanation, and agreed that the taking down the wall would probably lead to problems far worse than the wall.

That explanation rang so hollow to me. Is the existence and purpose of the wall even widely known in the realms, or wherever. How many people knows or cares that they are supposed to be faithful sheeple or evil wall will come and eat them? I certainly hadn't heard of the structure before Kaelyn told me about it. Not that I, or my character, had particularly studied planes lore. I'd wager the same is true to the significant majority of the people. Doesn't seem the wall serves much purpose beyond Myrkul being a dick, really.

The existence of the Wall of the Faithless might not be common knowledge throughout the realms... But, the majority of people across the realms do actively worship and pray to a god. It is a widely accepted fact that worshipping a god is beneficial, and not doing so leads to negative consequences (even if the person might not know what those negative consequences are).

If the wall is destroyed, there wouldn't be an immediate change in the worshipping habits of mortals. However, over time, the news would spread and people would slowly start to believe that it is no longer necessary to worship a god, and that there are no consequences for not doing so.

 

[BearBomber]

That also pissed me off. An epic adventure where you can kill fucking dead god, and that's most epic thing you can do. That makes whole crusade idea simply retarded. They have liche and dragon on their side, and with their epic knowlege only plan they have goes like that:
1.Wrecking havoc in Kelmovor domain to get his attention.
2.???
3.Destruction of the wall.
There should be at least some evil/extreme ending like teaming up with demons against gods or trying to kill every Kelemvor worshipper, and therefore killing Kelemvor.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Didn't the priest in the temple of Kelemvor in the main city talk about the Wall?

 

[DriacKin]

So you just ignore the suffering of innocents because someone old and powerful told you that the world is like this and meddling will only make things worse? How very RL. Fuck, Obsidian's writers are outstanding.

There's a difference between ignoring the suffereing, and trying to take down the wall without considering any of the possible ramifications or consequences.

The Wall of the Faithless is clearly unfair to many individuals. However, the last thing you would want to do (assuming that you are a good character) is to "fix" this situation, resulting in a new set of problems that are 1000 times worse. In my mind, the plan to take down the Wall was ill-conceived and never accounted for all the potential negative consequences. I would be in favor of a plan that would actually fix the problem, instead of just creating a new batch of problems. The plan to destroy the wall is clearly not the solution to the problem.

 

[Korgan]

That also pissed me off. An epic adventure where you can kill fucking dead god, and that's most epic thing you can do. That makes whole crusade idea simply retarded. They have liche and dragon on their side, and with their epic knowlege only plan they have goes like that:
1.Wrecking havoc in Kelmovor domain to get his attention.
2.???
3.Destruction of the wall.
There should be at least some evil/extreme ending like teaming up with demons against gods or trying to kill every Kelemvor worshipper, and therefore killing Kelemvor.

That was pretty good. I really want to slowly gouge out your eyes across the interwebs now. Also, you look like the cancer killing /b/ to me, which always gives people a bonus to RAAAAAAGE.

 

[BearBomber]

So you just ignore the suffering of innocents because someone old and powerful told you that the world is like this and meddling will only make things worse? How very RL. Fuck, Obsidian's writers are outstanding.

There's a difference between ignoring the suffereing, and trying to take down the wall without considering any of the possible ramifications or consequences.

The Wall of the Faithless is clearly unfair to many individuals. However, the last thing you would want to do (assuming that you are a good character) is to "fix" this situation, resulting in a new set of problems that are 1000 times worse. In my mind, the plan to take down the Wall was ill-conceived and never accounted for all the potential negative consequences. I would be in favor of a plan that would actually fix the problem, instead of just creating a new batch of problems. The plan to destroy the wall is clearly not the solution to the problem.

>>>This is nonsense. You don't want to destroy the wall because Kelemvor said that it would bring chaos. It's like shouting down resistence against 3rd Reich because Hitler said that without Reich Jews would kill everyone,

That also pissed me off. An epic adventure where you can kill fucking dead god, and that's most epic thing you can do. That makes whole crusade idea simply retarded. They have liche and dragon on their side, and with their epic knowlege only plan they have goes like that:
1.Wrecking havoc in Kelmovor domain to get his attention.
2.???
3.Destruction of the wall.
There should be at least some evil/extreme ending like teaming up with demons against gods or trying to kill every Kelemvor worshipper, and therefore killing Kelemvor.

That was pretty good. I really want to slowly gouge out your eyes across the interwebs now. Also, you look like the cancer killing /b/ to me, which always gives people a bonus to RAAAAAAGE.

Que?

 

[WanderingThrough2]

However, the last thing you would want to do (assuming that you are a good character) is to "fix" this situation, resulting in a new set of problems that are 1000 times worse. In my mind, the plan to take down the Wall was ill-conceived and never accounted for all the potential negative consequences.

Why am I not surprised that a fan of The Longest Journey would think in such a ridiculous fashion? I, for one, really appreciate the move of, "I don't want to tear down the wall. Therefore, the last thing you--the player--wants, is to tear down the wall."

In fact, however, lots of players wanted to tear down the wall. They didn't care if the chaos might be worse. Maybe they were naive. Maybe they were in love with Kaelyn. Maybe they were anarchist dreamers. Who knows? The fact that it might be a bad decision isn't a reason not to let the player make it. Even if the consequence is to instakill the PC, you ought to let them choose

 

[DriacKin]

However, the last thing you would want to do (assuming that you are a good character) is to "fix" this situation, resulting in a new set of problems that are 1000 times worse. In my mind, the plan to take down the Wall was ill-conceived and never accounted for all the potential negative consequences.

Why am I not surprised that a fan of The Longest Journey would think in such a ridiculous fashion? I, for one, really appreciate the move of, "I don't want to tear down the wall. Therefore, the last thing you--the player--wants, is to tear down the wall."

In fact, however, lots of players wanted to tear down the wall. They didn't care if the chaos might be worse. Maybe they were naive. Maybe they were in love with Kaelyn. Maybe they were anarchist dreamers. Who knows? The fact that it might be a bad decision isn't a reason not to let the player make it. Even if the consequence is to instakill the PC, you ought to let them choose

I was never trying to say that the option shouldn't have been there. I support the idea that it would have been nice if you could still try to take down the wall, after which Kelemvor would just insta-kill/insta-teleport you out of his realm.

The point that I was trying to make is that when I was playing the game, I agreed with Kelemvor that destroying the wall would just lead to more suffering. Even if I was allowed to try to destroy the wall, I wouldn't have chosen that option. It seems like the overwhelming number of players disagreed with Kelemvor and the Wall and felt that the "good" thing to do would be to destroy the Wall. My previous posts was just me arguing why I thought tearing down the wall would have been a bad choice and why I generally agreed with Kelemvor's reasoning.

 

[Forest Dweller]

I wasn't aware that the rule was that you had to be devoted to a god to avoid going to the Wall, but even if that were so, there's such a cornucopia to choose from, it's hard to see the Faithless as anything more than petulant children.

Yes, there are many of them, but they all behave like complete jerks, and it is hard to worship a jerk. So paradoxically, the more you know about gods in FR the greater are the chances that you wouldn't want to worship any of them and thus end up in the wall.

Also, didn't Kaelyn say something about inhabitants of a world where gods are a complete unknown but that end up in the wall just the same? Or is my memory failing me here?

Yes she did.

It is obvious to me that the Wall is completely evil. I too wanted to tear it down at the end. However, I wasn't too surprised that I couldn't do it. Kelemvor's reasoning is correct in at least one part - there would be major changes that would occur. Perhaps not immediately, but over time the gods would begin to lose their power. And the gods are such an integral part of the FR setting. I knew that the DnD people would never let something that momentous happen to their universe. They have to accept every game/book as canon, and so everything has to scrutinized by them. That's what happens when you write in somebody else's world. It makes me wonder what Obsidian would have done if they had made the game in their own world. Too bad.

I would like to see more games with an atheistic slant to them. As far as I know, Xenogears is the only game that does this.

 

[Zero Credibility]

I'm wondering, what happens to children in FR that die too young to have worshiped any god? Do they end in the wall as well? Does Kaelyn say something about this?

Because if children are send to to wall as well, then I'm surprised that religion even exists in the FR at all. Faced with this atrocity mortals should have risen against gods long ago, burned all the temples, lynched all the priests and forbid any worship of these "gods" forever.

 

[Barghest]

I'm wondering, what happens to children in FR that die too young to have worshiped any god? Do they end in the wall as well? Does Kaelyn say something about this?

Because if children are send to to wall as well, then I'm surprised that religion even exists in the FR at all. Faced with this atrocity mortals should have risen against gods long ago, burned all the temples, lynched all the priests and forbid any worship of these "gods" forever.

Probably the mortals are unaware of this. But compare this to real-life, and what 'happened' to unbaptised babies in the past.

 

[Barghest]

I'll point you toward http://www.answers.com/topic/unbaptized-babies