MOTB ending

[Pastel]

That also pissed me off. An epic adventure where you can kill fucking dead god, and that's most epic thing you can do. That makes whole crusade idea simply retarded. They have liche and dragon on their side, and with their epic knowlege only plan they have goes like that:
1.Wrecking havoc in Kelmovor domain to get his attention.
2.???
3.Destruction of the wall.
There should be at least some evil/extreme ending like teaming up with demons against gods or trying to kill every Kelemvor worshipper, and therefore killing Kelemvor.

That was pretty good. I really want to slowly gouge out your eyes across the interwebs now. Also, you look like the cancer killing /b/ to me, which always gives people a bonus to RAAAAAAGE.

Que?

Korgan is known to fail horribly at using chan memes in his posts. Possibly intentionally.

 

[Maia]

I have to say that I found the ending a bit nonsensical. At the very least I expected such options as:

1. A chance to take Kelemvor to task for allowing the Curse to continue. I mean, the Curse breaks the implied contract between gods and mortals since it puts souls of true believers (tm) into the Wall. I was itching to point this out when Kelemvor was twaddling about accountability.

2. An chance to score a verbal victory over Kelemvor and to make him re-evaluate his opinions on the necessity of the Wall. After all, 4e does away with the Wall as far as I know, so it would have been canon-compliant, as well as highly satisfactory. And the Wall _ is_ rather evil, even disregarding the possibilities of blatant abuse.

3. An option to remain true to the crusade, attack the Wall and die.

4. Logical consequences for caving in and agreeing with Kelemvor - I'd imagine that the crusaders, who risked everything including their souls/afterlife to participate, would be more than a little miffed by such a sudden turn-about of their leader.

Regarding worship of gods - does it really matter that they are jerks, when their temples provide such valuable services? IIRC, the valid FR worship can be pretty superficial and formal, and honestly, any rational person would give the gods their due, considering everything that one gets in return. The Wall is superfluous.

 

[Mantiis]

You are not alone in feeling ripped off with the lack of tear down the wall option. There was a thread a couple of months ago which talked about how fucked it was and considering how good the game was up to that point it was a bit let down for me.

In any case some Obsidian devs posted in it their reasons for having it play out the way it did:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=26774

Page seven in particular

 

[Lesifoere]

Put that way, I think the distinction runs the other way. It is possible to believe in something you don't know exists -- that's what religious people in the real world do. But to not believe in something you do know exists, that's irrational.

But I think you mean "worship them" rather than "believe in them." I guess in that case, it's a vaguely defensible position, but, geez, still pretty goofy. There are extraordinarily powerful beings that rule over planes of existence and dictate the terms of the afterlife. To say they are just "powerful outsiders" is semantics, no?

No and no again. Faith is belief without requiring proof. Knowing that they exist requires no faith whatsoever. Of course, the canon of D&D/Forgotten Realms is fucked anyway--in FR there's no faith as such.

I wasn't aware that the rule was that you had to be devoted to a god to avoid going to the Wall, but even if that were so, there's such a cornucopia to choose from, it's hard to see the Faithless as anything more than petulant children.

Uh, yeah, you have to consider a god your "patron deity" to avoid the Wall. And why would not choosing a patron deity be the act of a petulant child? Your logic is... well, there's not much logic there.

 

[BearBomber]

How should confrontation with Kelemvor look like:

PC: Die Kelemvor! You don't belong in this world!
K: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
PC: Tribute? You steal men's souls, and make them your wall!
K: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
PC: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill-needs a savior such as you!
K: What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk...have at you!

 

[Xor]

How should confrontation with Kelemvor look like:

PC: Die Kelemvor! You don't belong in this world!
K: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
PC: Tribute? You steal men's souls, and make them your wall!
K: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
PC: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill-needs a savior such as you!
K: What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk...have at you!

And then Kelemvor uses Life and Death to instantly kill the PC. Game over.

 

[BearBomber]

How should confrontation with Kelemvor look like:

PC: Die Kelemvor! You don't belong in this world!
K: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
PC: Tribute? You steal men's souls, and make them your wall!
K: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
PC: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill-needs a savior such as you!
K: What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk...have at you!

And then Kelemvor uses Life and Death to instantly kill the PC. Game over.

In DnD wthat kills you only makes you stronger.

 

[Raapys]

And then Kelemvor uses Life and Death to instantly kill the PC. Game over.

They can't. Kelemvor says so himself. The Gods can't even kill the PC when they gang up on him together. Thus, the PC > Gods.

 

[Darth Roxor]

You people who say that Kelemvor cannot kill the spirit eater. Remember the start of motb? You wake up in Okku's barrow inside a couple of wards planted by a mortal wizard to store the spirit eater there. Don't you think Kelemvor could just, you know, get a set of wards that would be even more powerful than the ones set by the wizard, teleport you there in a blink of an eye, and probably make sure that this time no red wizard comes by to make matters complicated?

How should confrontation with Kelemvor look like:

PC: Die Kelemvor! You don't belong in this world!
K: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
PC: Tribute? You steal men's souls, and make them your wall!
K: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
PC: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill-needs a savior such as you!
K: What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk...have at you!

... and it would instantly go to the 'worst dialogues in RPG history' thread where it belongs.

 

[Lesifoere]

How should confrontation with Kelemvor look like:

PC: Die Kelemvor! You don't belong in this world!
K: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
PC: Tribute? You steal men's souls, and make them your wall!
K: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
PC: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill-needs a savior such as you!
K: What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk...have at you!

... and it would instantly go to the 'worst dialogues in RPG history' thread where it belongs.

This. That's some shitty dialogue.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Castlevania morans

 

[WanderingThrough2]

... and it would instantly go to the 'worst dialogues in RPG history' thread where it belongs.

This. That's some shitty dialogue.

Err, you guys know that that's from Castlevania, right, and is notorious as ridiculously over-the-top Japanese translation? Way to miss the joke.

No and no again. Faith is belief without requiring proof.

And the prize for nonsequitur of the week . . . .

You wrote "Believing in them and knowing that they exist are very different things."

I answered, "It is possible to believe in something you don't know exists -- that's what religious people in the real world do. But to not believe in something you do know exists, that's irrational. "

I agree with you -- faith is belief without evidence. You wrote that people in FR shouldn't "believe" in the Gods, which I pointed out is irrational, since there is evidence that they existed. It's not faith, it's reason that leads one to believe in Gods in FR.

Uh, yeah, you have to consider a god your "patron deity" to avoid the Wall. And why would not choosing a patron deity be the act of a petulant child? Your logic is... well, there's not much logic there.

There are what, five hundred different Gods in Forgotten Realms? A thousand? A hundred? Covering every possible pursuit, mood, and combination of moral postures. Whether you think they're "gods" or "powerful nonmortals who create worlds, bless mortals, control the afterlife, and perform miracles" -- that is, whether you decide to put the label of "god" on them or just operate with its definition -- there's no reason you can't find one whose power your respect and whose ideology conforms to your own. And if you don't like the whole pagan interventionist gods thing, you can just worship Ao.

The only reason not to do so is to thumb your nose at religion and try to prove that as an individual you're too good to need the gods' help. To do that knowing the material benefits it loses you, and knowing that there actually are ultrapowerful beings out there, is just petulance. It's not the act of a real-world rational atheist; it's more like someone in the real world who refuses to pay taxes because he can't find a country he respects enough and then pouts about why he should go to jail for it.

It's also unclear to me why the Wall of the Faithless is particularly worse than, say, the Blood War, or any of the other elements of the AD&D afterlife. The Wall just seems unfair because, as I said earlier, we're moving our real-world views on atheism into a setting where gods are a fact of life.

 

[Black]

How should confrontation with Kelemvor look like:

PC: Die Kelemvor! You don't belong in this world!
K: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
PC: Tribute? You steal men's souls, and make them your wall!
K: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
PC: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill-needs a savior such as you!
K: What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk...have at you!

Thanks. Suddenly MOTB's ending and lack of the option of destroying the wall don't seem so bad. It could always be worse. They could've done what you suggest!

 

[Lesifoere]

You wrote that people in FR shouldn't "believe" in the Gods, which I pointed out is irrational, since there is evidence that they existed. It's not faith, it's reason that leads one to believe in Gods in FR.

No. It's the fundamental self-contradiction that makes this whole system not work: faith does not exist in FR, even though faith is supposed to be what gives gods power. You said But I think you mean "worship them" rather than "believe in them." But see, you can believe that a god exists without worshiping it; thus, your dichotomy is false.

And if you don't like the whole pagan interventionist gods thing, you can just worship Ao.

He ignores worshipers, I'm pretty sure. Not to mention, most people don't even know Ao exists.

The only reason not to do so is to thumb your nose at religion and try to prove that as an individual you're too good to need the gods' help. To do that knowing the material benefits it loses you, and knowing that there actually are ultrapowerful beings out there, is just petulance.

I'm beginning to wonder if you're some sort of religious fundamentalist IRL, because you're sounding more and more defensive/vehement in your dismissal of... fictional atheists.

What material benefits are these, exactly? Is it the afterlife? How many people in FR do you think know for a fact about the afterlife, the Fugue Plain, and all that? Outside the clergies, I don't think very many, and again: if you are one of those select few who know about the cosmology, the gods, and the planes intimately... chances are you would also know that the gods are a bunch of screaming, spoiled children. Lathander (Dawn Cataclysm), Corellon, the whole mess that's 4ED's excuse to clean up the pantheon (Tyr/Tymora/Helm "love triangle" will never stop being cringe-worthy). Most of them aren't particularly worth respecting, are not intelligent or wise, and unless you happen to worship stupidity and--ahaha--childish petulance, you're not going to want to trust your fate to this bunch of cretinous mongrels. If you're one of those ignorant commoners and not part of the clergy, chances are you won't get anything out of worship anyway: Chauntea isn't going to grant everyone good bounty and Waukeen doesn't make everyone equally rich. Oh, you can pay a cleric to get rid of that disease or cast Cure Serious Wounds, but so what? You don't need to count the deity as your patron; you just need to fork out enough gold. Short of you belonging to an opposing order, gods don't pause to not grant a divine spell just because the recipient happens to be an atheist.

Are you even that familiar with the setting's canon? I mean, not that being familiar with FR is something to take pride in--I don't--but if we're going to discuss FR, it might help to know what you're talking about. You seem to assume every single person in FR has access to sourcebooks and novels, which is a stupid assumption.

It's also unclear to me why the Wall of the Faithless is particularly worse than, say, the Blood War, or any of the other elements of the AD&D afterlife. The Wall just seems unfair because, as I said earlier, we're moving our real-world views on atheism into a setting where gods are a fact of life.

Because it limits player choices and forces them to choose patron deities? Some people do roleplay with those D&D things, you know, and they resent this sort of stupidity.

 

[Zero Credibility]

There are what, five hundred different Gods in Forgotten Realms? A thousand? A hundred? Covering every possible pursuit, mood, and combination of moral postures. Whether you think they're "gods" or "powerful nonmortals who create worlds, bless mortals, control the afterlife, and perform miracles" -- that is, whether you decide to put the label of "god" on them or just operate with its definition -- there's no reason you can't find one whose power your respect and whose ideology conforms to your own. And if you don't like the whole pagan interventionist gods thing, you can just worship Ao.

The only reason not to do so is to thumb your nose at religion and try to prove that as an individual you're too good to need the gods' help. To do that knowing the material benefits it loses you, and knowing that there actually are ultrapowerful beings out there, is just petulance. It's not the act of a real-world rational atheist; it's more like someone in the real world who refuses to pay taxes because he can't find a country he respects enough and then pouts about why he should go to jail for it.

It's also unclear to me why the Wall of the Faithless is particularly worse than, say, the Blood War, or any of the other elements of the AD&D afterlife. The Wall just seems unfair because, as I said earlier, we're moving our real-world views on atheism into a setting where gods are a fact of life.

I think you are moving our real-world view of gods into FR setting. Gods of FR are not immortal nor creators. They are simply powerful (but still very limited and far from divine in the brain department) beings that have hijacked the afterlife of mortals for their own purposes (at least that's one way of looking at this). And the mere fact that they are ok with the concept of the wall shows that none of them hold any moral high ground. And let me ask you: what about those that never had a chance to worship a god but are punished for it all the same (and according to Kaelyn there are whole planes like this)? How is the wall fair for them?

 

[Lesifoere]

The lack of coherence doesn't help. I'm pretty sure there was a point before 3E where it was perfectly fine not to have a "patron deity."

Oh, and by the way, in 4E the Wall no longer exists.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

No. It's the fundamental self-contradiction that makes this whole system not work: faith does not exist in FR, even though faith is supposed to be what gives gods power.

Is it faith or devotion? I don't understand the way the ruleset works here, so I'm not going to argue that particular point. To the extent you're trumping my arguments with recourse to AD&D arcana, I'll have to just concede. If FR gods require "belief in the absence of proof" in order to exist then, yes, I agree the Wall is a pretty silly way to go about getting it.

I'm beginning to wonder if you're some sort of religious fundamentalist IRL, because you're sounding more and more defensive/vehement in your dismissal of... fictional atheists.

Err, I'm an atheist--or an agnostic or whatever the nonmilitant nonbeliever calls himself these days--in real life because in real life there is no evidence of gods existing. In FR, there is ample evidence of it.

As I said, the flaw in your position is that your logic seems to run: "Atheism in real life is rational, so it would be unjust if such rational people were punished in the afterlife. Atheism is punished in the afterlife in FR, therefore that system must be unjust." But, of course, atheism isn't rational in FR, any more than not believing in science is rational IRL.

What material benefits are these, exactly?

Healing, blessing, resurrection, curing diseases, smiting undead, etc., etc.

Are you even that familiar with the setting's canon? I mean, not that being familiar with FR is something to take pride in--I don't--but if we're going to discuss FR, it might help to know what you're talking about. You seem to assume every single person in FR has access to sourcebooks and novels, which is a stupid assumption.

Err, no. I've played a handful of AD&D computer RPGs. But here I thought we were debating the merits of the Wall of the Faithless as depicted in MOTB. If it turns out that in the various manuals you keep piled up in your room the Wall is made of Munster cheese and is populated with demignomes playing bagpipes, then, well, I guess that's pretty silly.

[The Wall] limits player choices and forces them to choose patron deities? Some people do roleplay with those D&D things, you know, and they resent this sort of stupidity.

Huh? How does the Wall limit player choices? Because when your fictitious character dies in the distant future, which you'll never actually play, he gets stuck in some wall? And that makes you squeamish? Roleplay the setting. If you're too scared of the Wall to be an atheist, then worship Ao or something. If you're too petulant to worship a god even if it means going to the Wall, then live with the consequences. You don't need to have your fantasy cake and eat it too.

And let me ask you: what about those that never had a chance to worship a god but are punished for it all the same (and according to Kaelyn there are whole planes like this)? How is the wall fair for them?

Because if there's one thing that's clear from Kaelyn, it's that she should be trusted to provide accurate an unbiased information about the Wall.

 

[Bladderfish]

I can't believe that throughout this whole thread no one has mentioned the implications of Kaelyn's "good" ending.

I haven't got the screenshot handy, but basically she continues continues to struggle to free souls from the walls and becomes a beacon of hope for those souls.

Thus, from a certain point of view - a point of view which I believe the writers intended - she becomes the God of the Faithless. The God of those who believe in nothing. Because she is willing to sacrifice to save them, and there is no virtue more worthy of worship than sacrifice.

Frankly, that's a genius piece of writing.

And alone makes the ending fantastic.

 

[made]

No. It's the fundamental self-contradiction that makes this whole system not work: faith does not exist in FR, even though faith is supposed to be what gives gods power.

Wasn't it belief - not faith - that was the basis of everything supernatural in the Planes and the source of power for gods etc?

Been a while since I last played PST.

 

[made]

Well, I thought that's exactly how it works. That the old, established deities are powerful because a large number of mortals simply believes in their existience. When a god fades into obscurity/is forgotten, so does his power diminish until he eventually disappears.

I kinda like that theory, even if it's not official D&D canon.

 

[Darth Roxor]

nor can you "believe" Adahn into being

'In many dialogues throughout Ps:T the main character will have the chance to introduce himself as "Adahn", or to make several other references to that particular name. Anyway, the thing is, if you make enough references to the name "Adahn", 10 or 12 I belive, an individual by that name will appear in the Smoldering Corpse Bar (that's to show you how powerful will-power is, on Ps:T). You can talk this individual into giving you several items (along with some exp), as long as you don't let him know that you created him. First he'll give you an "Adahn's Ring" and 250 exp, then 100 gold pieces and 500 exp, and finally an "Adahn's Dagger" and 1000 exp, the dagger is very cool looking, if not that useful. You'll need a fairly high INT and WIS to get Adahn to give you these items.'

http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/pc/p ... rets.shtml

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

By the way, if the wall was just destroyed, where would the souls of the faithless go then?

 

[made]

nor can you "believe" Adahn into being

'In many dialogues throughout Ps:T the main character will have the chance to introduce himself as "Adahn", or to make several other references to that particular name. Anyway, the thing is, if you make enough references to the name "Adahn", 10 or 12 I belive, an individual by that name will appear in the Smoldering Corpse Bar (that's to show you how powerful will-power is, on Ps:T). You can talk this individual into giving you several items (along with some exp), as long as you don't let him know that you created him. First he'll give you an "Adahn's Ring" and 250 exp, then 100 gold pieces and 500 exp, and finally an "Adahn's Dagger" and 1000 exp, the dagger is very cool looking, if not that useful. You'll need a fairly high INT and WIS to get Adahn to give you these items.'

http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/pc/p ... rets.shtml

His point, I think, was that it doesn't work in *FR*; PST doesn't happen in the FR.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Because if there's one thing that's clear from Kaelyn, it's that she should be trusted to provide accurate an unbiased information about the Wall. Rolling Eyes

So you doubt the info presented in the game? But you also said:

But here I thought we were debating the merits of the Wall of the Faithless as depicted in MOTB.

Well in the game it is clearly presented that many that end up in the wall had no idea what awaits them after death. Everybody that doesn't worship a god has a lot to fear in afterlife - no exceptions. Native to a plane that doesn't have in-your-face gods, young children or simply somebody that never knew that they must follow a deity (like Gann) - it doesn't matter - they are all fucked.

How is the wall fair for them?

 

[BearBomber]

How should confrontation with Kelemvor look like:

PC: Die Kelemvor! You don't belong in this world!
K: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
PC: Tribute? You steal men's souls, and make them your wall!
K: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
PC: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill-needs a savior such as you!
K: What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk...have at you!

Thanks. Suddenly MOTB's ending and lack of the option of destroying the wall don't seem so bad. It could always be worse. They could've done what you suggest!

How should confrontation with Kelemvor look like:

PC: Die Kelemvor! You don't belong in this world!
K: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
PC: Tribute? You steal men's souls, and make them your wall!
K: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
PC: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill-needs a savior such as you!
K: What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk...have at you!

... and it would instantly go to the 'worst dialogues in RPG history' thread where it belongs.

This. That's some shitty dialogue.

You people who say that Kelemvor cannot kill the spirit eater. Remember the start of motb? You wake up in Okku's barrow inside a couple of wards planted by a mortal wizard to store the spirit eater there. Don't you think Kelemvor could just, you know, get a set of wards that would be even more powerful than the ones set by the wizard, teleport you there in a blink of an eye, and probably make sure that this time no red wizard comes by to make matters complicated?

How should confrontation with Kelemvor look like:

PC: Die Kelemvor! You don't belong in this world!
K: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
PC: Tribute? You steal men's souls, and make them your wall!
K: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
PC: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill-needs a savior such as you!
K: What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk...have at you!

... and it would instantly go to the 'worst dialogues in RPG history' thread where it belongs.

Eh eh-eh eh eh eh-eh!